lemming Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg Firewing's Damage Shield is a 2d6 RKA. So's a jet engine exhaust. Look it up. And these thing are *DESIGNED* to fly up the exhausts of enemy fighters. Think about it. Well, by the time it gets hit with the exhaust it's at it's target. What is the trigger for the missile to explode? Impact or the heat from the engine? Or proximity? Any of the above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > Of course that assumes no knockback, as even a single inch > of knockback would mean that the missile explodes outside > the hex. [snip] I might not get Move-Through damage for all the NC movement it's doing, but I damn sure still get the Knockback Resistance. The thing's flying straight at you at Mach 1+, fer gossake... a simple 2d6 RKA isn't going to stop /that/ much momentum dead. It doesn't have to. It only has to deflect it, guide the momentum elsewhere. Is there rule for momentum overcoming knockback? I like the idea but it may be too complicated for ease of play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > IRL, the pilots can't hold their actions, Yes they can. Not when it comes to movements. They're flying at Mach speeds no matter what they do. Originally posted by Chuckg > are moving at noncombat speeds, [snip] But not relative to the missile. I already cited this rule once -- why did no one pay attention? Because it doesn't apply in the Firewing vs Jet comparison. *Firewing* isn't moving at noncombat velocities, and can *easily* move out of the way. I was refuting your jet vs jet example. Thanks for agreeing. Originally posted by Chuckg If two targets are moving along at NC velocities, but have little or no relative velocity towards each other, then they affect each other normally. Re: the "horrendous turn modes" -- irrelevant. If simply moving one or two hexes to the side made the missile scream right past you... even the most horrendous turn mode can manage at least /some/ position shift. At mach speeds, no pilot and no plane can react fast enough to jink more than a very little. Unlike Firewing who can flit about pretty much as much as he wants. Face it, no US jet has *ever* fought against an aerial target as maneuverable as Firewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg "Wow, if I make a 'witty' one-liner, maybe nobody will notice that I completely shot my mouth off about something I had no clue about and got proven wrong! Yet again!" Feh. If you can't say anything knowledgable, don't say anything. No. I think at this point you have reached a state of quasi-paranoia and have demonized me to the point that anything I say you will take the "wrong way." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg The ruling is in the descrpition of Accurate itself, and yes, the target can indeed increase the difficulty with levels. Which in Firewing's case reduces the attack probabilty to... hmmm... 12-, as he has only 2 Overall Levels he can contribute. 9- if he Dodges. Of course, if he Dodges... he's forfeited his next action... ... *WHAM* So the Force Wall wasn't repositioned by the time the next salvo of 4 arrived. Edit -- and have we forgotten that we were talking about the surprise round? I don't think most of us have accepted the idea of Firewing being surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > That's of course assuming that all 4 hit, that none are > detonated by the FW, and that none of them are shot out > of the air by the explosion before they arrive. And /all/ of the above require Firewing to have advance warning of the attack -- not just that it might happen at some time in the next several minutes, but of exactly when and where it will arrive from. He will not have that warning. Why not? It takes 2-3 phases for the missile to arrive. A simple perception roll according to the rules will let Firewing see the missiles from a mile away, especially if fired in a salvo of 4. And the pilots have 3-4 speeds. It'll take them 2 of Firewing's phases before they can launch another salvo. Plenty of time for Firewing to react. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 > Not when it comes to movements. Cite the rule. > They're flying at Mach speeds no matter what they do. Yes, and so? [snip] > Because it doesn't apply in the Firewing vs Jet comparison. > *Firewing* isn't moving at noncombat velocities, and can > *easily* move out of the way. Wrong again. Seeking missiles are used against targets moving at combat velocities every day -- in ground attack scenarios. Does the slow tank easily dodge the NC-moving radar-guided Hellfire? Hell, does the fast SUV? All of you are massively underrating just what seeking weapons "really" do -- both IRL, /and/ in action movie genre, /and/ in even the superheroic genre. Cripes, even the mighty Avengers Quinjet has gotten clocked by SAMS and air-to-air missiles on several occasions... as in, 'every time the radar jamming didn't work'. There is a reason modern air-to-air warfare relies so much on your EW systems -- once the other guy gets tone, the fight's usually over. Why else do you think the most expensive part of any combat aircraft is the electronics? [snip] > At mach speeds, no pilot and no plane can react fast > enough to jink more than a very little. At mach speeds, the slightest twitch of your joystick will send your aircraft several hundred meters sideways before you can blink. You'd think that would be a /better/ dodge than simply stepping five hexes to the left. [snip] > Face it, no US jet has *ever* fought against an aerial target > as maneuverable as Firewing. Oh yes they have, quite often -- they're called "helicopters". They fly as fast or faster than Firewing, they have a turn mode of zero, and they can hover. As maneuverable as any super! More maneuverable than Firewing, AAMOF... he has a Turn Mode, they don't. You know what the technical term is for a helicopter that's got a seeking missile locked onto it from an F-18? "Target". And then, very rapidly thereafter, "Wreckage". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > Of course that assumes no knockback, as even a single inch > of knockback would mean that the missile explodes outside > the hex. [snip] I might not get Move-Through damage for all the NC movement it's doing, but I damn sure still get the Knockback Resistance. The thing's flying straight at you at Mach 1+, fer gossake... a simple 2d6 RKA isn't going to stop /that/ much momentum dead. Just 1" toward the side and it misses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Gary Just 1" toward the side and it misses. A missile flying directly into a Force Wall Damage Shield isn't taking KB towards the side, it's taking KB directly in the aft direction. The missile is, after all, coming straight at Firewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Gary Face it, no US jet has *ever* fought against an aerial target as maneuverable as Firewing. Unless those stories about conflicts with alien spacecraft are true... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > Not when it comes to movements. Cite the rule. Are we doing this strictly by rules, or is some reality going to enter this? If strictly by rules, then every target who moves 1" will make the missile miss. Originally posted by Chuckg > They're flying at Mach speeds no matter what they do. Yes, and so? No reaction time and horrendous turn mods. Originally posted by Chuckg [snip] > Face it, no US jet has *ever* fought against an aerial target > as maneuverable as Firewing. Oh yes they have, quite often -- they're called "helicopters". You know what the technical term is for a helicopter that's got a seeking missile locked onto it from an F-18? "Target". And then, very rapidly thereafter, "Wreckage". Really, could you please point me to a helicopter with 30 dex, 7 spd, and 30" of combat velocity? I don't recall the US army ever having one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 > Really, could you please point me to a helicopter with 30 > dex, 7 spd, and 30" of combat velocity? You're moving the goalpost, Gary. The contention was, no target as maneuverable as Firewing has ever been hit by a seeking missile. An Apache has a Flight of 25", x4 NC, Increased Deceleration, and No Turn Mode. It is both faster and /much/ more maneuverable than Firewing... you know, him with that Turn Mode of 5 or 6... And if it had an AMRAAM locked onto it and boring it, it would have the life expectancy of an ice cube in Hell. PS -- the missile is DEX 23 and SPD 6, so it's not as if it's impossible to hit him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg A missile flying directly into a Force Wall Damage Shield isn't taking KB towards the side, it's taking KB directly in the aft direction. The missile is, after all, coming straight at Firewing. That's not necessarily true. It would have to be *exactly* a 90 degree hit for that to apply. If it's off in the slightest, then the knockback will tend to deflect in that direction. And at that speed, just the slightest shift will result in a miss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > Not when it comes to movements. Cite the rule. > They're flying at Mach speeds no matter what they do. Yes, and so? [snip] > Because it doesn't apply in the Firewing vs Jet comparison. > *Firewing* isn't moving at noncombat velocities, and can > *easily* move out of the way. Wrong again. Seeking missiles are used against targets moving at combat velocities every day -- in ground attack scenarios. Does the slow tank easily dodge the NC-moving radar-guided Hellfire? Hell, does the fast SUV? All of you are massively underrating just what seeking weapons "really" do -- both IRL, /and/ in action movie genre, /and/ in even the superheroic genre. Cripes, even the mighty Avengers Quinjet has gotten clocked by SAMS and air-to-air missiles on several occasions... as in, 'every time the radar jamming didn't work'. There is a reason modern air-to-air warfare relies so much on your EW systems -- once the other guy gets tone, the fight's usually over. Why else do you think the most expensive part of any combat aircraft is the electronics? [snip] > At mach speeds, no pilot and no plane can react fast > enough to jink more than a very little. At mach speeds, the slightest twitch of your joystick will send your aircraft several hundred meters sideways before you can blink. You'd think that would be a /better/ dodge than simply stepping five hexes to the left. [snip] > Face it, no US jet has *ever* fought against an aerial target > as maneuverable as Firewing. Oh yes they have, quite often -- they're called "helicopters". They fly as fast or faster than Firewing, they have a turn mode of zero, and they can hover. As maneuverable as any super! More maneuverable than Firewing, AAMOF... he has a Turn Mode, they don't. You know what the technical term is for a helicopter that's got a seeking missile locked onto it from an F-18? "Target". And then, very rapidly thereafter, "Wreckage". Helicopters are NOT more maneuverable than Firewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > Really, could you please point me to a helicopter with 30 > dex, 7 spd, and 30" of combat velocity? You're moving the goalpost, Gary. The contention was, no target as maneuverable as Firewing has ever been hit by a seeking missile. An Apache has a Flight of 25", x4 NC, Increased Deceleration, and No Turn Mode. It is both faster and /much/ more maneuverable than Firewing. And if it had an AMRAAM locked onto it and boring it, it would have the life expectancy of an ice cube in Hell. PS -- the missile is DEX 23 and SPD 6, so it's not as if it's impossible to hit him. Dex and Speed have a bit to do with maneuverability in the parlance that I believe most people use the term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Agent X Helicopters are NOT more maneuverable than Firewing. Look above for the stats. They fly faster than he does, accelerate and decelerate much faster than he can, /and/ have a Turn Mode of zero. Firewing is decidedly less maneuverable than /that/. [snip] > Dex and Speed have a bit to do with maneuverability in the > parlance that I believe most people use the term. The attacking missile is 1-hex Accurate. It ignores the target's DCV, so that takes care of DEX. As for SPD, the missile has SPD 6... Firewing has SPD 7. He can maybe evade one or two of a salvo... but not the whole thing. And again, all of these 'he's gonna dodge!' arguments of yours require Firewing to have a Danger Sense he doesn't actually have, as the attacking planes did *not* send him advance notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > Really, could you please point me to a helicopter with 30 > dex, 7 spd, and 30" of combat velocity? You're moving the goalpost, Gary. The contention was, no target as maneuverable as Firewing has ever been hit by a seeking missile. An Apache has a Flight of 25", x4 NC, Increased Deceleration, and No Turn Mode. It is both faster and /much/ more maneuverable than Firewing. And if it had an AMRAAM locked onto it and boring it, it would have the life expectancy of an ice cube in Hell. PS -- the missile is DEX 23 and SPD 6, so it's not as if it's impossible to hit him. I am not moving the goalpost. The Apache is slower, less dex, and less speed than Firewing. Therefore it is less maneuverable. Why you would compare the average Apache pilot to Firewing is beyone me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by WhammeWhamme Unless those stories about conflicts with alien spacecraft are true... Good point. LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg Look above for the stats. They fly faster than he does, accelerate and decelerate much faster than he can, /and/ have a Turn Mode of zero. Firewing is decidedly less maneuverable than /that/. Dex, Speed. Also, they are a bit larger a target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 > I am not moving the goalpost. The Apache is slower, less > dex, and less speed than Firewing. Therefore it is less > maneuverable. Now we're just getting obnoxious. It has a *faster* speed, *improved acceleration and deceleration*, and absolutely no Turn mode. If you want to talk aerial maneuverability, it can literally fly circles around him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 > Dex, Speed. Already answered those. You're doing that 'not reading' thing again. > Also, they are a bit larger a target. 1-hex Accurate. Size Modifiers are irrelevant and not needed to help it hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > I am not moving the goalpost. The Apache is slower, less > dex, and less speed than Firewing. Therefore it is less > maneuverable. Now we're just getting obnoxious. It has a *faster* speed, *improved acceleration and deceleration*, and absolutely no Turn mode. If you want to talk aerial maneuverability, it can literally fly circles around him. Faster speed? 25" with 3-4 spd means 75-100" a turn. Firewing moves at 210" a turn, combat speed. And a dex of 15 or so hardly compares to 30 dex. I think you're the one starting to get obnoxious. Why do you discount dex and speed when it comes to maneuverability? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 > Well, by the time it gets hit with the exhaust it's at it's > target. Nope -- the exhaust extends for 7" behind the plane in a line. Check the Side Effects on the F-18's own description. That's 6" further away than Firewing's Force Wall is from Firewing. > What is the trigger for the missile to explode? Impact or > the heat from the engine? Or proximity? Any of the above? IRL, it can be either impact or proximity. Given that the writeup in TUV has only 1-Hex Accurate, and not Explosion, it's obviously written for the impact fuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 > Faster speed? 25" with 3-4 spd means 75-100" a turn. With No Turn Mode, it can move at the NC multiplier and still jink like a bumblebee. > Firewing moves at 210" a turn, combat speed. And a dex of > 15 or so hardly compares to 30 dex. < i think you're the one starting to get obnoxious. Why do < you discount dex and speed when it comes to < maneuverability? Because the missile does not care what DEX the target is. 1-hex Accurate. Accurate. *All* targets are the same DCV to it -- DCV 3. That is why I am "ignoring" Dex, and I am getitng very appalled at your consistent ignoring of this. That think was specifically designed, strictly by the rules, to have a 14- chance of hitting *ANY* target that it can perceive with its targeting sense... i.e., your only hope of not getting gobsmacked is to jam the bleeping radar or seeker warhead. (Or to Abort To Dodge and/or have a gobsmack of levels w/ Flight... and even then, you're praying for a great stroke of good fortune.) Which is, not coincidentally, a very close mirror of the real-world performance of the AMRAAM air-to-air missile! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > Dex, Speed. Already answered those. You're doing that 'not reading' thing again. > Also, they are a bit larger a target. 1-hex Accurate. Size Modifiers are irrelevant and not needed to help it hit. Dex, Speed - because I didn't buy your argument. Size modifiers are irrelevant? I bet it is when the missile misses by two hexes and still hits the helicopter instead of Firewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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