Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Chuckg]

> LL asked for a comparison of the published Fighter and a

> published Worldbeater - the missiles are bought as vehicles.

 

Actually, TUV publishes two possible writeups -- missiles about as vehicles, or missiles bought as RKAs.

 

If you want to talk about 'published', you first have to read what's published.

 

[snip]

> On perception. Firewing's Damage Shield doesn't need to

> notice the missiles to do their thing

 

No, but Firewing does -- so he knows which hex to put the Force Wall in.

 

> and Firewing isn't stupid. Given a situation where the

> Fighters are being called out,

 

Firewing does not have Radio Hearing -- how did he hear the call? How does he know what vector they're arriving from?

 

> Firewing is likely threatening something important and is

> aware that there will be a military response.

 

Until he can be aware of which direction it's arriving from and when it will fire, his awareness will not be sufficient.

 

> And, if the missiles are moving at NON-COM wouldn't there

> effective OCV be 0 anyway?

 

Actually, thanks to the skill levels they bought -- remember, /base/ OCV is 0 at Non-Com, but OCV levels still work -- they'd have OCV 6.

 

And they're 1-hex Accurate -- i.e., all targets are DCV 3.

 

The air-to-air missiles, as published in TUV, have a base 14- chance to hit, oh, pretty much damn near /anything/.

 

> That significantly reduces their chance of hitting.

 

Before you can talk about published material, you first have to know it. You obviously don't.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> One thing about Jet fighters. They're *LOUD*.

 

Locating an aircraft by sound alone is nigh-impossible. You might know it's out there /somewhere/... but where? I live under an airport traffic pattern. I hear whooshings all day, but the only reason I know where from is because I know where the regular routes are. If it's not a scheduled flight, it can potentially be any-god-damned-where within the surrounding 100 square miles and I'd still hear the same thing.

 

All you need is the general direction of the jet to throw up the FW appropriately. The jet would have to get *behind* Firewing before its missile misses the FW. And that's not happening.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Even if they were at standoff range where Firewing couldn't

> see them, he would most likely be able to *hear* them and

> take precautions. Precautions such as the Damage Shield.

 

His Force Wall Damage Shield covers 1 hex. Firewing has to know at least roughly which direction the attack is arriving from before he can use it to defend himself.

 

His personal Damage Shield is 'too little, too late' -- sure, the missile destroys itself when it hits him, but by that time, it's already gone boom.

 

Covering 1 hex is plenty. As I said before, the missile would have to hit him from behind. Also, it's a heat seeker, so it would tend to target the FW anyway, no matter what direction it's coming from. That FW Damage Shield is most likely going to be hotter than Firewing.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

re: the range- - well, the missile is capable of travelling 7.6 kilometers / Turn, and its Fuel Charge lasts an entire minute... the F-18 doesn't have to be anywhere /near/ within 1 kilometer of Firewing to hose a few off and let them burn in.

 

That missile has almost no maneuverability. It's turn mode has to be gawdawful. Firewing can maneuver much easier, going up or down if necessary. Just a little shift in position means that the missile goes by, with no chance to adjust. In game terms, all he needs is a saved action and a half move, or a dive for cover.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> What is the attack level of a Hornet's missile? It would take

> a pretty decent missile to be able to harm Firewing.

 

It's not so much the 5d6 AP 1-Hex Accurate RKA that's hurting him, it's the damage from a 1,280" / Phase Non-Combat Move Through. When a large chunk of metal going Mach 1 flies into you, you notice.

 

I wouldn't give it movethrough damage. 1280" per phase means 427d6 damage plus str, which would crack the planet open. As pointed out earlier in this thread, when the results get too silly, you ignore the results. Such as a bodybuider with an axe destroying an entire apartment complex with one swing.

 

At most, I'd give it a 1d6 per def+body of the missile added as a multiple power attack to the 5d6 RKA.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Addendum -- assuming that the pilot is using the aircraft's +3 levels w/ Flight as DCV, the DCV of an F-18 is 11.

 

Vs. Firewing's maximum OCV of 15, this means his chance to hit at 128 hexes, much less 525, is about 6 or less.

 

If he uses the Explosion EB, his chance to hit at a range of 513-1024 hexes is 9-.

 

Stop editing your posts when I'm posting. It's hard to keep up.

 

Remember, all the explosion needs to do is to get *close*. A near miss will still take out the jet. Not to mention knockback. -1d6 for flight. If any knockback is done, the plane is likely to shake itself apart flying at that velocity.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Chuckg

>Actually, thanks to the skill levels they bought -- remember, /base/ OCV is 0 at Non-Com, but OCV levels still work -- they'd have OCV 6.

Is that true? Because I don't think you can use levels for OCV when Non-Com. I don't have the book on me, but I thought that was the case at earlier editions.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X

Good Gravy, I give up LL. When I said it's not your thread I meant it is not your thread that is causing any problems. You may think of this thread as not "your" thread but that is the way I was referring to it. I was not making a comment about whose thread it was. I have never needed to make any such comments to you LL.

 

Just because I respond to Chuckg's animosity by pointing it out, I would hope you can distinguish between that and how I converse with you.

 

My response was simply pointing out the culprit behind the divisiveness - Chuckg - who attempts to personalize any topic that both he and I write about. Presumably, this is because I didn't put up with his histrionics on the DD/Takofanes thread.

 

Point clarified, and sorry if I sounded testy.

 

I could wish that your friction wasn't there, because you both raise interesting and useful issues, but unless and until it escalates out of hand it's not my place to interfere.

 

You and I are still cool, though.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by lemming

Is that true? Because I don't think you can use levels for OCV when Non-Com. I don't have the book on me, but I thought that was the case at earlier editions.

 

Well, when asking Steve Long a related question recently, he specified that 0 OCV would be the base OCV rather than being based on DEX, and you would apply any Modifiers to combat normally after that.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Well, when asking Steve Long a related question recently, he specified that 0 OCV would be the base OCV rather than being based on DEX, and you would apply any Modifiers to combat normally after that.

Thanks. Hey, more notes in my house rules! (Then again, I frown on NCM movethroughs anyway.)

[Chuckg]

> All you need is the general direction of the jet [snip]

 

Problem is, from sound alone, you don't even get that little.

 

[snip]

> That missile has almost no maneuverability. It's turn mode

> has to be gawdawful.

 

It's also SPD 6... Firewing isn't getting very many extra phases on it.

 

> Firewing can maneuver much easier, going up or down if

> necessary. Just a little shift in position means that the

> missile goes by, with no chance to adjust. In game terms, all

> he needs is a saved action and a half move, or a dive for

> cover.

 

Provided that he successfully perceives exactly when and where the one is coming -- a point that still is in grave doubt -- OK, that saves him from the first one.

 

They're not just firing one. Each plane carries about 8 missiles each, and the pilot will have /at least/ one wingman.

 

It'll take repeated salvos to bring Firewing down, yes, but OK, he's going down.

 

[snip]

> I wouldn't give it movethrough damage. 1280" per phase

> means 427d6 damage plus str, which would crack the planet

> open. As pointed out earlier in this thread, when the

> results get too silly, you ignore the results.

 

Fair enough. No move-through damage... then. Just 5d6 RKA, AP 1-Hex Accurate.

[Chuckg]

> Remember, all the explosion needs to do is to get *close*. [snip]

 

True, but 1) the jet doesn't even need to get within 3 kilometers, much less one and 2) even getting close is harder than it looks... especially given that Firewing will have to know where it is to within 12 hexes.

[Metaphysician]

A couple quick comments:

 

-The force wall/damage shield combo would take down any missiles that hit it, since its transparent to physical. What stops the missile is the damage shield. It also probably is a very good decoy target. Issues of forewarning and gross direction still stand.

 

-450 point characters are *NOT* worldbeaters, or even army beaters, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

-Mechanon needs a No Range Penalty LoS RKA "Anti-Air Laser" slot.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> All you need is the general direction of the jet [snip]

 

Problem is, from sound alone, you don't even get that little.

 

I think you can. And even if you can't, only 1 missile is going to hit before Firewing knows which direction the rest is coming from.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> That missile has almost no maneuverability. It's turn mode

> has to be gawdawful.

 

It's also SPD 6... Firewing isn't getting very many extra phases on it.

 

The missile's SPD doesn't matter. Once it misses, it's past him and can't maneuver back. Missiles aren't known for their ability to do 180 degree turns.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Firewing can maneuver much easier, going up or down if

> necessary. Just a little shift in position means that the

> missile goes by, with no chance to adjust. In game terms, all

> he needs is a saved action and a half move, or a dive for

> cover.

 

Provided that he successfully perceives exactly when and where the one is coming -- a point that still is in grave doubt -- OK, that saves him from the first one.

 

They're not just firing one. Each plane carries about 8 missiles each, and the pilot will have /at least/ one wingman.

 

It'll take repeated salvos to bring Firewing down, yes, but OK, he's going down.

 

Even if he's hit by the first one, he knows the general direction of the rest and will have his FW in the way. That's assuming that the missiles don't target the FW to begin with, since it's probably hotter than he is.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

 

[snip]

> I wouldn't give it movethrough damage. 1280" per phase

> means 427d6 damage plus str, which would crack the planet

> open. As pointed out earlier in this thread, when the

> results get too silly, you ignore the results.

 

Fair enough. No move-through damage... then. Just 5d6 RKA, AP 1-Hex Accurate.

 

Firewing has hardened defenses, so it's still no guarantee that even 8 of these missiles will take him down. Not to mention that it's highly doubtful that he will be hit by 8.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

True, but 1) the jet doesn't even need to get within 3 kilometers, much less one and 2) even getting close is harder than it looks... especially given that Firewing will have to know where it is to within 12 hexes.

 

*If* the jet is within 1 km, Firewing will be able to spot it visually. He won't miss his attack roll by 12 on average if he can see the jet.

[astralfrontier]

You know what would be neat? You two guys need to start a new thread. Agent X runs Firewing. ChuckG runs four fighters, as written in TUV. Post segment by segment. Dice rolls on the honor system. If everyone's complaining about "you run X like a blithering idiot", well, complain no more, play the side you favor as smart as you think you can.

 

If you decide to do this, assume (a) the jets can be at whatever distance they want, and ( Firewing is aware that he is going to be attacked by jets from somewhere, very soon.

[Chuckg]

> I think you can.

 

I've actually /tried/. Outside of distances of half a kilometer or so, it's not at al likely.

 

> And even if you can't, only 1 missile is going to hit

 

Or 2, or 3, or 4... depends on how many the pilot chose for the original salvo, 'cause they're all getting there at the same time.

 

> before Firewing knows which direction the rest is coming

> from.

 

Problem is, assuming a STUN multiplier roll of 4, Firewing just took 0 BODY and ...but took 32.5 STUN... from one 5d6 AP RKA alone.

 

Assuming that Firewing eats the x2STUN multiplier for "Surprised Out Of Combat" -- which, if this thing was a blind-side from 3+ klicks away and Firewing didn't even know he was getting shot at until it hit -- ummm, that's 60+ STUN.

 

It's even odds that Firewing was CON Stunned just from the first hit.

 

[snip]

> The missile's SPD doesn't matter.

 

Actually, it does -- if Firewing wants to jink on it, he has to move on a Phase that it isn't moving on... because it goes after he does, and can easily Hold its action until he moves anyway. Homing missile, after all -- follows the target, doesn't lead it.

 

[snip]

> > It'll take repeated salvos to bring Firewing down,

 

Actually, I scrwed up my math the first time -- one hit /will/ CON Stun Firewing, if he's surprised Out Of Combat.

 

[snip]

> Even if he's hit by the first one, he knows the general

> direction of the rest and will have his FW in the way.

 

This presumes that both attacking planes are in the same hex.

 

> That's assuming that the missiles don't target the FW to

> begin with, since it's probably hotter than he is.

 

Well, in addition to heat seeking mode, they also have terminal radar guidance -- and as the Force Wall is Transparent to Physical, that means Firewing alone gets to eat the pain.

 

[snip]

> *If* the jet is within 1 km, [snip]

 

Which it does not need to be, and therefore will not be. I have said this repeatedly -- the pilots will *not* close to within <1km with Firewing, as doing so would give the advantage to him[i/]. All assumptions that they will get that close had better give Firewing some hefty NC Flight that he doesn't have.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Point clarified, and sorry if I sounded testy.

 

I could wish that your friction wasn't there, because you both raise interesting and useful issues, but unless and until it escalates out of hand it's not my place to interfere.

 

You and I are still cool, though.

I wish the friction wasn't there either. The only friction coming from me is responding to Chuckg's hostility toward myself and my buddy, Champsguy. I would love for him to cool it. I wish he could clue in that he's the only one that takes potshots at me routinely and I've posted a lot. If I deserve the treatment, why is he the only one giving me the treatment?

[Metaphysician]

Okay, question: How much of a heat signature would a stinger have from the frontal direction?? I know it would be smaller than from the rear, but wouldn't it still be pretty sizeable, compared to the background??

 

Similarly, wouldn't it be easier for Firewing to spot incoming fighters by their heat signature than by normal sight ( assuming they aren't heat stealthed )??

[Chuckg]

> I would love for him to cool it. I wish he could clue in that

> he's the only one that takes potshots at me routinely and

> I've posted a lot. If I deserve the treatment, why is he the

> only one giving me the treatment?

 

1) Because they aren't as violently allergic to ignorance as I am.

 

2) When talking to other people, you do actually seem to be doing them the minimum courtesy of actually reading what the hell they wrote before responding to it. When responding to me, OTOH, you are so wrapped up in old grudges that you can't see the genuine message for your blinders. So, I whap you with the Clue Bat.

[Chuckg]

> Okay, question: How much of a heat signature would a

> stinger have from the frontal direction??

 

Stinger? No Stingers here, friend, we've been throwing AMRAAMs and Sidewinders.

 

> I know it would be smaller than from the rear, but wouldn't

> it still be pretty sizeable, compared to the background??

 

> Similarly, wouldn't it be easier for Firewing to spot incoming

> fighters by their heat signature than by normal sight (

> assuming they aren't heat stealthed)?

 

From what I know, it takes an extremely sensitive IR suite to pick up the skin heating of a fighter from the front aspect. It's /not/ an "extremely high contrast" situation.

 

Remember also that unless Firewing uses his Overall Levels for PER rolls, he only has a 13- simple PER roll.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> The missile's SPD doesn't matter.

 

Actually, it does -- if Firewing wants to jink on it, he has to move on a Phase that it isn't moving on... because it goes after he does, and can easily Hold its action until he moves anyway. Homing missile, after all -- follows the target, doesn't lead it.

No way would I have a missile be able to delay. Unless it's got a combat AI in it.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> I think you can.

 

I've actually /tried/. Outside of distances of half a kilometer or so, it's not at al likely.

 

I think you would know which 180 degree arc it's coming from.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> And even if you can't, only 1 missile is going to hit

 

Or 2, or 3, or 4... depends on how many the pilot chose for the original salvo, 'cause they're all getting there at the same time.

 

You were the one who was suggesting staggering the missiles earlier.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> before Firewing knows which direction the rest is coming

> from.

 

Problem is, assuming a STUN multiplier roll of 4, Firewing just took 0 BODY and ...but took 32.5 STUN... from one 5d6 AP RKA alone.

 

Assuming that Firewing eats the x2STUN multiplier for "Surprised Out Of Combat" -- which, if this thing was a blind-side from 3+ klicks away and Firewing didn't even know he was getting shot at until it hit -- ummm, that's 60+ STUN.

 

It's even odds that Firewing was CON Stunned just from the first hit.

 

We're not assuming a surprised situation, or else Dr. Destroyer would be taken out by a salvo of missiles at 2X stun. We're assuming a meeting engagement where both sides are aware of each other. *Any* villain in the book can be taken out fairly easily if they're surprised.

 

It's a *lot* less than even odds that Firewing will be constunned from only 1 hit.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> The missile's SPD doesn't matter.

 

Actually, it does -- if Firewing wants to jink on it, he has to move on a Phase that it isn't moving on... because it goes after he does, and can easily Hold its action until he moves anyway. Homing missile, after all -- follows the target, doesn't lead it.

 

The missile does not "Hold" actions. It's flying at noncombat speeds every phase, and takes 2-3 phases to reach assuming that the jet is at standoff range. Plenty of time for Firewing to react.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> > It'll take repeated salvos to bring Firewing down,

 

Actually, I scrwed up my math the first time -- one hit /will/ CON Stun Firewing, if he's surprised Out Of Combat.

 

Yeah, and one hit from a tank shell will con stun Dr. Destroyer if he's surprised. We're not dealing in a surprise scenario.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> Even if he's hit by the first one, he knows the general

> direction of the rest and will have his FW in the way.

 

This presumes that both attacking planes are in the same hex.

 

They aren't *that* far apart. Just within the same 180 degree arc.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> That's assuming that the missiles don't target the FW to

> begin with, since it's probably hotter than he is.

 

Well, in addition to heat seeking mode, they also have terminal radar guidance -- and as the Force Wall is Transparent to Physical, that means Firewing alone gets to eat the pain.

 

Can the radar target a man size object? And of course the FW is going to be in the way of the missile anyway.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> *If* the jet is within 1 km, [snip]

 

Which it does not need to be, and therefore will not be. I have said this repeatedly -- the pilots will *not* close to within <1km with Firewing, as doing so would give the advantage to him[i/]. All assumptions that they will get that close had better give Firewing some hefty NC Flight that he doesn't have.

 

Yeah, there's no reason for the jet to get closer, but Firewing should be able to dodge or explode all 8 missiles and force the jet to retreat.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

A couple quick comments:

 

-The force wall/damage shield combo would take down any missiles that hit it, since its transparent to physical. What stops the missile is the damage shield. It also probably is a very good decoy target. Issues of forewarning and gross direction still stand.

 

-450 point characters are *NOT* worldbeaters, or even army beaters, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

-Mechanon needs a No Range Penalty LoS RKA "Anti-Air Laser" slot.

I'm thinking all Firewing needs is the knowledge that the fighters are coming. He doesn't need to see the missiles come in and, frankly, I don't think high speed is counted in as a perception modifier. The missile isn't bought invisible or the like. The issue of perception, if there is one, is an issue for the first missile. If, for some reason, Firewing is in a situation where Fighters are called out but isn't thinking about it, the first missile might hit: average of 18 body, 45 stun. Firewing's defenses will drop to 30/20 so he'll take no body and 15 stun with the average hit. The missile could easily roll 22 body and 110 stun but it's not that likely.

 

As to the No Range Penalty RKA option for the missiles - the writeup of the Hornet does not use that option. It uses the additional vehicles option.

[Chuckg]

Lemming -- Even simple Vehicles may Hold their Actions -- pg. 174, TUV.

[Chuckg]

> I think you would know which 180 degree arc it's coming

> from.

 

Again, I speak from real-world experience -- you quite often do not.

 

It may sound counter-intuitive to you, but it's the truth... trying to locate an aircraft by sound alone is /incredibly/ deceptive, if the aircraft is any good distance away.

 

Sure, you can hear where it is if it's right on top of you... but remember, this scenario assumes that the closest point of approach is going to be several miles.

[Chuckg]

> You were the one who was suggesting staggering the

> missiles earlier.

 

Yup... but 'staggering' can be done in groups 2, 3, or 4 just as easily as it can be done 1 at a time... and presumably, the pilot has a basic Tactics roll.

 

[snip]

< They aren't *that* far apart. Just within the same 180

< degree arc.

 

Firewing has to put the Force Wall in an adjacent hex -- if it's in the same hex as he is, he still eats the damage.

 

That means he can cover 60 degrees of arc from him, not 180.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> I would love for him to cool it. I wish he could clue in that

> he's the only one that takes potshots at me routinely and

> I've posted a lot. If I deserve the treatment, why is he the

> only one giving me the treatment?

 

1) Because they aren't as violently allergic to ignorance as I am.

 

2) When talking to other people, you do actually seem to be doing them the minimum courtesy of actually reading what the hell they wrote before responding to it. When responding to me, OTOH, you are so wrapped up in old grudges that you can't see the genuine message for your blinders. So, I whap you with the Clue Bat.

One thing: the

>

>

>

is just plain ugly and it distracts from your posts (at least for me).

 

Another thing. You accuse me of ignoring your posts when I disagree with something you say. Since I disagree with something you say I then set up a different series of consequences which you then accuse me of ignoring your point when I didn't. I disagree with it. And nobody is required to make a comment on every thing you say. And if they don't comment on something you say it isn't a concession. I'm not sitting here making an outline of your statement to check everything off. For that matter, you aren't doing that with my posts. And I'm not trashing you for that. You are basically setting up a standard for me that you can then rationalize the need to berate me for. It's childish.

[Chuckg]

> Yeah, and one hit from a tank shell will con stun Dr.

> Destroyer if he's surprised. We're not dealing in a surprise

> scenario.

 

Yes, we /are/.

 

We're talking about Firewing getting hit with a missile launched from several miles away, when he does not even know that said missile was launched, as he'd need a PER roll at -18 worth of Range Modifiers to know that.

 

Furthermore, he does not even know for certain that fighters are sharing the sky with him -- he only suspects. (If he's attacking anywhere but the most desolate area, there will already be other jets in the sky, so he'll already be hearing planes.)

 

If that is not a surprise situation, what *is*?