Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[gewing]

Actually that is what I meant. Most well trained military should be about speed 3, elites should often be speed 4. This definately cuts the advantages of some supers.

 

 

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

If the benchmarks in the official books carry any weight for you, FREd defines Competent Normals (at the level of professional athletes) as up to SPD 3. I'd expect most well-trained soldiers to fall into that category. Elite forces might achieve SPD 4, but beyond that we're getting into the realm of exceptional Heroes.

[gewing]

Both of you are forgetting something. I have not got TUV yet, so haven't seen the writeup, but...

 

Air to air missiles are proximity fused fragmentation area effect weapons. So are most Surface to air missiles. THis may well make his damage shield MORE effective, if you base it on real world, because instead of a large missile it has to defeat small fragments. There are 2 problems with this. One, the fragments are moving at 4000+ feet per second. 2, they are usually TUNGSTEN. This is pretty high def, imo.

 

Now other points. As I said, I haven't seen the writup, but sidewinders travel somewhat over mach 2, and have a range of up to 11 miles or so. AMRAAM travels about Mach 4 and has a range of over 30 miles. BOth would be fairly hard to spot as they came in on someone.

 

The idea that vehicles moving at full speed are 0 DCV bothers me. An M-1 Abrams can hit a target while it is moving 40 miles per hour at 1000 meters. Easily. Maybe the driver should be at 0 OCV and the gunner is not?

 

I don't know. HERO's is the best system around IMO, but that does not mean it is perfect. I would like to see more granularity of damage. Just for starters.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

/sigh/

 

The Hornet, Agent X, uses the /missiles/ when flying at Noncombat Speeds... and when you look at the missiles, you'll notice that they're specifically designed for the NC Velocity Move-Through. The 'Gravitar vs. Viperia' thread has a very detailed discussion of how such a thing is done.

 

*checks off another repetition*

 

 

BTW, another thing you forgot -- the F-18 has +3 levels w/ Flight. If those levels are put into defense, it has DCV 11, not DCV 8.

[gewing]

Sidewinders would probably still target him on the ground, but they might not be as accurate, detonating further away due to angle of approach, etc .

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

lemming -- re: using the EBs as flares to distract the missiles... first off, unless he uses the 20d6 or maybe the 12d6 Explosion, I would think that his Force Wall Damage Shield -- given that it's Area Effect -- is flaring 'hotter' than any of his EBs. Especially since it's Constant and the EBs are Instant. Decoy flares are usually built as Continuing Charges, and Firewing has no attacks that do likewise.

 

(Unless he's on the ground and near flammable objects, natch- - but if he's on the ground, the missiles can't be used. The scenario I'm outlining here requires Firewing to be caught flying at altitude.)

 

Second off, it requires him to know the missiles are on their way... which, if the pilot simply fires them from a decent stand-off distance, he won't.

[gewing]

Missiles are visible from the frontal arc on IR or UV, that is how some of the defensive countermeasures suites on combat aircraft work.

 

Other notes, US Fighters carry 2 kinds of missiles, Sidewinder is IR guided, short ranged, under 20 kilometers. warhead is about 10-20 lbs.

Amraam is longer ranged, 40+ kilometers, 30 lb warhead.

 

Warhead sizes are estimates, not looking up right now.

 

 

Originally posted by Metaphysician

Okay, question: How much of a heat signature would a stinger have from the frontal direction?? I know it would be smaller than from the rear, but wouldn't it still be pretty sizeable, compared to the background??

 

Similarly, wouldn't it be easier for Firewing to spot incoming fighters by their heat signature than by normal sight ( assuming they aren't heat stealthed )??

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Umm, Thunderbird was present in our battle against Eurostar, Mentor. If you'll recall he not only rather easily shot down Ultrasonique, but managed a 12d6 EB hit or two against Mentalla before she Ego Blasted him out of the sky. Without the damage T'bird had already done to her (and which kept Mentalla from focusing exclusively on Zl'f) it's unlikely Zl'f would have been able to take down Mentalla in one hit, no matter how magnificent the actual damage roll was. (44 STUN on 10d6)

 

While it's true that Zl'f was both the last MidGuardian standing and the one that ultimately knocked out Mentalla and finished the fight, without Thunderbird I seriously doubt we would have won that battle.

 

Still at large: Fiacho and Feurmacher.

Oh yeah. Well considering Mentalla drained 3 points of Prodigy's Ego and then hit him with an Ego Blast, my mind was on other things.

[gewing]

just to throw another complication in, Missiles don't usually fire ALL at once. Maybe one from each wing, spacing 1-3 seconds otherwise.

 

I would be tempted to have an A-10 sneak in low on him

(they are notoriously hard to hear coming) and have it open up with 4-6 17 round 70mm rocket pods, each rocket carries a 10 or 17 lb warhead, I would use the 10 lb Armor piercing flechette, 5x 1.5 lb darts each, say 4d6 AP, they spread in a cone, the pods can ripple much faster than normal missiles, I have seen pictures of about 5 leaving the pod at the same time. The 30mm cannon would probably hit just before the rockets, taking down the force wall probably, due to the AP rounds every 3rd shell.

 

so lets see, 31/2 d6 AP 2x autofire cannon

4 linked double autofire 4d6 AP are effect one hex attacks (?????) might be larger area effect.

 

 

WOuld that do it?

 

I haven't even seen the writeup for firewing. Oh, and though the rockets are usually used for air to ground, they were originally designed for air to air to kill bombers.

 

This does not even use the laser guided version of the rocket that is coming out very soon.

Originally posted by Gary

I think you would know which 180 degree arc it's coming from.

 

 

 

You were the one who was suggesting staggering the missiles earlier.

 

 

 

We're not assuming a surprised situation, or else Dr. Destroyer would be taken out by a salvo of missiles at 2X stun. We're assuming a meeting engagement where both sides are aware of each other. *Any* villain in the book can be taken out fairly easily if they're surprised.

 

It's a *lot* less than even odds that Firewing will be constunned from only 1 hit.

 

 

 

The missile does not "Hold" actions. It's flying at noncombat speeds every phase, and takes 2-3 phases to reach assuming that the jet is at standoff range. Plenty of time for Firewing to react.

 

 

 

Yeah, and one hit from a tank shell will con stun Dr. Destroyer if he's surprised. We're not dealing in a surprise scenario.

 

 

 

They aren't *that* far apart. Just within the same 180 degree arc.

 

 

 

Can the radar target a man size object? And of course the FW is going to be in the way of the missile anyway.

 

 

 

Yeah, there's no reason for the jet to get closer, but Firewing should be able to dodge or explode all 8 missiles and force the jet to retreat.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Umm, Thunderbird was present in our battle against Eurostar, Mentor. If you'll recall he not only rather easily shot down Ultrasonique, but managed a 12d6 EB hit or two against Mentalla before she Ego Blasted him out of the sky. Without the damage T'bird had already done to her (and which kept Mentalla from focusing exclusively on Zl'f) it's unlikely Zl'f would have been able to take down Mentalla in one hit, no matter how magnificent the actual damage roll was. (44 STUN on 10d6)

 

While it's true that Zl'f was both the last MidGuardian standing and the one that ultimately knocked out Mentalla and finished the fight, without Thunderbird I seriously doubt we would have won that battle.

 

Still at large: Fiacho and Feurmacher.

Anyway, that is correct. Ultrasonique was a wuss and our Thunderbird kicks the Hero Universe Thunderbird's butt.

 

Their Eurostar is pretty righteous, though.

[gewing]

The Mr. Picky part of me raises his ugly head again. Stingers and most more advanced missiles DO try to aim just ahead of the flight path, at least IR ones. They are trying to hit the fuselage, not blow up in the engine nozzle if fired from behind. On the other hand, newer ones can be fired from ahead, so....

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> You didn't catch the "or" in there?

 

I did -- but since I explicitly cited the rule that says that even simple Vehicles may hold their actions, your point that missiles cannot delay is alerady proven wrong.

 

So leaving out the 'or' did precisely jack and squat to misrepresent your argument... said argument was DOA to begin with.

 

[snip]

> Are you saying the missiles always hold their action? Is that

> part of their programming?

 

I am saying that any reasonable portrayal of a homing missile is "you move, then missile moves". It's supposed to be mindlessly following you, after all. To follow implies to wait and see where you're going first.

 

So yes, I would say that the missile always holds its action until after it's target has taken one... or it's next action is about to come up, whichever comes first.

[gewing]

Missiles can be evaded, but the chances are smaller. Longer range helps, because at extreme ranges the missiles are coasting, with their engines burnt out. This means that while they are still moving fast, they cannot sustain aggressive manuevers. The other problem they have is that though they can pull 20-50 G turns (depending on the missile) they are moving much faster than the plane in many situations. A well timed jink is rather likely to result in the missile not being in the EFFECTIVE kill radius of the warhead.

 

This is the advantage most flying supers would have IF THEY CAN SPOT THE MISSILE INCOMING. Even fighter pilots are usually killed by the attack they don't see coming. given the range and speed of missiles, seeing them coming can be very tough.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> It absolutely misrepresented my statement.

 

Not at all. You made a point about missiles 'stopping in mid-air', and I had never even hinted at such a thing. So when I objected to that, that's not mispresentation... at least, not by *me*.

 

[snip]

> In movies, they are always showing missiles being

> outmaneuvered by daring pilots and the like.

 

"Top Gun" wasn't a movie? In that, we see daring pilots getting slammed with air-to-air missiles all the time... all the daring maneuvering is them using Vehicle Evade maneuvers to try and keep the radar lock-on from being established in the first place. Once the opposing pilot gets tone, it's all over and only a miracle saves 'em.

 

Dude, even the action movie genre does not support you here, much less real life. Unless somebody wants to claim that 'Top Gun' is *not* the archetypical action movie about fighters and fighter pilots.

[gewing]

Good point. He is a very slippery target. Area effect is standard on air to air missiles.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Not when it comes to movements. They're flying at Mach speeds no matter what they do.

 

 

 

Because it doesn't apply in the Firewing vs Jet comparison. *Firewing* isn't moving at noncombat velocities, and can *easily* move out of the way. I was refuting your jet vs jet example. Thanks for agreeing.

 

 

 

At mach speeds, no pilot and no plane can react fast enough to jink more than a very little. Unlike Firewing who can flit about pretty much as much as he wants.

 

Face it, no US jet has *ever* fought against an aerial target as maneuverable as Firewing.

[gewing]

I think much of the time he would be surprised, just due to range and speed of attacks.

 

I can just see him having his duel, or causing some property damage, finishing up, and as he starts to fly away taking it in the shorts by the response fighters. On the other hand, in my part of the country, If supers started causing big problems and doing the standard "I am unstoppable" posturing, they had better be. There are a lot of deer hunters, and a 30-06 to the head can slow a lot of heros down. That is why I Like 13 + resistant defense.

 

Originally posted by Agent X

I don't think most of us have accepted the idea of Firewing being surprised.

[gewing]

A pilot flying at mach speeds who tries a sudden manuever will probably no longer be flying. G forces at high speeds are NASTY. Modern fighters can stand 10-12 gs. pilots only up to 9, usually.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Not when it comes to movements.

 

Cite the rule.

 

> They're flying at Mach speeds no matter what they do.

 

Yes, and so?

 

[snip]

> Because it doesn't apply in the Firewing vs Jet comparison.

> *Firewing* isn't moving at noncombat velocities, and can

> *easily* move out of the way.

 

Wrong again. Seeking missiles are used against targets moving at combat velocities every day -- in ground attack scenarios.

 

Does the slow tank easily dodge the NC-moving radar-guided Hellfire? Hell, does the fast SUV?

 

All of you are massively underrating just what seeking weapons "really" do -- both IRL, /and/ in action movie genre, /and/ in even the superheroic genre. Cripes, even the mighty Avengers Quinjet has gotten clocked by SAMS and air-to-air missiles on several occasions... as in, 'every time the radar jamming didn't work'.

 

There is a reason modern air-to-air warfare relies so much on your EW systems -- once the other guy gets tone, the fight's usually over. Why else do you think the most expensive part of any combat aircraft is the electronics?

 

[snip]

> At mach speeds, no pilot and no plane can react fast

> enough to jink more than a very little.

 

At mach speeds, the slightest twitch of your joystick will send your aircraft several hundred meters sideways before you can blink. You'd think that would be a /better/ dodge than simply stepping five hexes to the left.

 

[snip]

> Face it, no US jet has *ever* fought against an aerial target

> as maneuverable as Firewing.

 

Oh yes they have, quite often -- they're called "helicopters". They fly as fast or faster than Firewing, they have a turn mode of zero, and they can hover. As maneuverable as any super! More maneuverable than Firewing, AAMOF... he has a Turn Mode, they don't.

 

You know what the technical term is for a helicopter that's got a seeking missile locked onto it from an F-18?

 

"Target". And then, very rapidly thereafter, "Wreckage".

[gewing]

I would say that firewing can survive most of the time. He had better be pretty lucky if he makes a habit of it though.

 

Sooner or later the "Golden BB" is going to get him, almost no matter what he does.

 

Originally posted by Agent X

I'm beginning to think there are serious character design flaws in CKC. Firewing can fly as fast as light in space but flies 154mph in an atmosphere. Warlord, the military power armor guy, doesn't have any telescopic vision. Dr. Destroyer has no knockback resistance. It seems like some little details here and there got missed.

 

Firewing, seems like most of us agree he can handle conventional military stuff.

 

Gravitar looks like she's got the defenses to laugh off the conventional military.

 

Takofanes, Dr. Destroyer, Menton, heh.

 

No problems for Warlord if he's got his Flying Fortress.

 

Istvatha V'Han is bringing her own military.

 

I'm thinking the Crowns of Krim wouldn't have too much trouble either. Dark Seraph, for example, has Desolid.

[gewing]

SORRY GUYS, I was on a mil-tech mister PICKY roll, I guess.

[lemming]

Originally posted by gewing

The 30mm cannon would probably hit just before the rockets, taking down the force wall probably, due to the AP rounds every 3rd shell.

Just a nit pick. The FW wouldn't slow down the shells since it's transparent to physical. And wouldn't go down either.and since you haven't seen his writeup, that explains it.

 

Lot's of nice info in your posts though.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by gewing

I think much of the time he would be surprised, just due to range and speed of attacks.

 

I can just see him having his duel, or causing some property damage, finishing up, and as he starts to fly away taking it in the shorts by the response fighters. On the other hand, in my part of the country, If supers started causing big problems and doing the standard "I am unstoppable" posturing, they had better be. There are a lot of deer hunters, and a 30-06 to the head can slow a lot of heros down. That is why I Like 13 + resistant defense.

In the context of my statement - Firewing would be assuming some pretty heavy duty military response if he's out in the open in the air threatening a target the military would want to send fighters after him for.

[gewing]

If the forcewall doesn't slow down the shells, how high are his basic defenses? the mix of AP and HEI from the cannon would be pretty nasty, imo.

 

 

Originally posted by lemming

Just a nit pick. The FW wouldn't slow down the shells since it's transparent to physical. And wouldn't go down either.and since you haven't seen his writeup, that explains it.

 

Lot's of nice info in your posts though.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by gewing

If the forcewall doesn't slow down the shells, how high are his basic defenses? the mix of AP and HEI from the cannon would be pretty nasty, imo.

Could you give us a clear, organized pointed out build for these attacks? You are limiting me to game mechanics and you are talking "real world" - it just doesn't mesh. I have to know how you would really build this thing.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Agent X

Could you give us a clear, organized pointed out build for these attacks? You are limiting me to game mechanics and you are talking "real world" - it just doesn't mesh. I have to know how you would really build this thing.

Well, TUV has a 25mm AutoCannon at 4d6+1 RKA. AP optional.

 

gewing listed at 3 1/2 AP further up.

 

Which would mess up the book version of Firewing at a 30 or 40 PD depending if AP. However, mine would be a bit tougher versus bullets anyway. Human Torch is shown to be pretty immune to bullets.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by lemming

Well, TUV has a 25mm AutoCannon at 4d6+1 RKA. AP optional.

 

gewing listed at 3 1/2 AP further up.

 

Which would mess up the book version of Firewing at a 30 or 40 PD depending if AP. However, mine would be a bit tougher versus bullets anyway. Human Torch is shown to be pretty immune to bullets.

The stuff I saw in the book, didn't really make me think Firewing had much to fear.

[gewing]

Originally posted by Agent X

Could you give us a clear, organized pointed out build for these attacks? You are limiting me to game mechanics and you are talking "real world" - it just doesn't mesh. I have to know how you would really build this thing.

 

Did I limit you to game build? Sorry, I was just throwing ideas out.

 

I actually haven't had a chance to really play in a year or more. my books are 22 miles away. a high velocity 30mm cannon should do at least 2, probably 3 damage classes more than a .50 caliber, just based on energy. iirc the .50 is about 10-12,000 foot pounds of energy, while the 30x173mm on the A-10 is around 100,000 foot pounds of energy, not including velocity from the plane or high explosive content.

 

 

 

The problem I have always had is that military technology has fewer point limitations than most supers. The Government can spend how many active points??? :eek:

 

Most people are perfectly willing to accept limitations and simplifications on "real world" technology for play balance. Usually I am, but I get my hackles up when people go too far. Sorry.

[Max Callahan]

Originally posted by gewing

Did I limit you to game build? Sorry, I was just throwing ideas out.

 

I actually haven't had a chance to really play in a year or more. my books are 22 miles away. a high velocity 30mm cannon should do at least 2, probably 3 damage classes more than a .50 caliber, just based on energy. iirc the .50 is about 10-12,000 foot pounds of energy, while the 30x173mm on the A-10 is around 100,000 foot pounds of energy, not including velocity from the plane or high explosive content.

 

 

The 30mm on the Apache helicopter in TUV is 4 1/2d6 AP +1 stun mult. But it fires 30mm x 117 rounds and they are straight cartridges. The gun on the A-10 fires 30 x 173 mm rounds with necked cartridges, so they have about twice the charge of the rounds the Apache fires, which I read as +1 DC. For my own write up I've been calling it 5d6 -1 AP

 

If there is anything Firewing really has to watch out for it's the Hellfire missiles on the Apache, they are 4d6 2xAP explosion. Being explosion they will probably hit, and being 2xAP they will do 4 body on the average hit.

[Gary]

Of course if it were a helicopter instead of a jet, Firewing should win easily. The helicopter has to be close enough range for Firewing to be able to attack back. And Firewing (30 dex 7 spd) goes first and more often than your typical pilot.

[Kristopher]

Can Firewing hit a moving target from several miles away? Because the Apache can, using the Hellfire missiles.

 

As for the A-10's GAU-8A and the 30mm rounds:

 

From almost a mile away, a one-second burst from the cannon will put about 40 rounds into an area the size of a main battle tank. USAF considers half a dozen rounds on average to be sufficient to kill a tank.

 

And for the most lethal of those rounds, it's not just raw mass and velocity that makes them lethal. Inside the 30mm aluminum shell is a 15mm depleted uranium penetrator. Basically, each round applies enough force to lift a fully loaded tractor-trailer one foot straight up to an area about the size of a US penny. The DU becomes molten upon impact, and slices through the target's armor like a hot knife through butter. If you watch slow-motion film, you can see some of the rounds come out through the far side of the targetted tank.

 

[Gary]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Can Firewing hit a moving target from several miles away? Because the Apache can, using the Hellfire missiles.

 

He can deal with the missiles the same way as with Sidewinders or Amraams. By exploding them before they reach him, jinking, or his Force Wall damage shield. To use the cannon, the choppers have to get close, and that's suicide vs Firewing.