Chuckg Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Gary -- Good. I really don't care whether or not the truth of a situation ends up exactly matching whatever notions I started out with, merely that I eventually found it. I don't have to own it. Thanks for showing me a couple of new things to do with held actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > I'm beginning to think there are serious character design > flaws in CKC. Firewing can fly as fast as light in space but > flies 154mph in an atmosphere. If he got an errata writeup that gave him Mach 5 worth of NC or MegaScale flight, I wouldn't complain much, even if it did mean that the USAF now had no chance. I'm just currently working with what's currently written. > Warlord, the military power armor guy, doesn't have any > telescopic vision. My own theory on that is that he sees his major role in that suit as Close-Quarters Battle... if it's an artillery duel, that's a job for the Flying Fortress with him on the command bridge, not for his suit alone. > Dr. Destroyer has no knockback resistance. Special effect of his suit being so light -- remember, he isn't wearing big clunky power armor, he's wearing a nanotech sheath that's virtually a second skin. Helps to amp the portability and ease of use a lot, i'm sure, but it also means that he hasn't got much extra mass to soak with. And if he anticipates needing any KB resistance for a certain special encounter, such as, oh, if he's fighting Knockback Boy and his dreaded 12d6 Double KB Energy Blast... well, then he just does a VPP Gadget Pool allocation called "Inertial Dampener Module", and loads up as many inches of KB resistance as he wants to pay for. > It seems like some little details here and there got missed. Little details always get missed, but that's not necessarily a resaon to call away "serious design flaws". [snip] > Gravitar looks like she's got the defenses to laugh off the > conventional military. Agreed, unless she's idiot enough to play catch with nukes... which she's not. > Takofanes, Dr. Destroyer, Menton, heh. The first two just walk through armies, the third can't be found unless he wants to be. Agreed. > No problems for Warlord if he's got his Flying Fortress. Which he does. The Warlord's not much of a solo villain. [snip] > I'm thinking the Crowns of Krim wouldn't have too much > trouble either. Dark Seraph, for example, has Desolid. Not to mention all those Transformations -- with the excepion of Ecilpse they can all arrive unseen in human form, morph out, rampage, morph back down, and get lost. And Eclipse, natch, has his own ways of getting around. The Crowns are a good example of why hero teams still find steady work. Okay, it looks like we're reaching a concensus here. There are CU characters whose canon writeups allow them to hang tough with modern military forces. Mind you, if you're going to fight the army/air force/navy/marines it seems to help if you're built on 1,000 or more points and make liberal use of Power Frameworks. Not to mention playing to your strengths and avoiding situations where you don't have the advantage. And paying for legions of well-equipped Followers doesn't hurt. This seems to put that kind of action within the realm of the "Very High Powered" or "Cosmically Powerful" characters, though, even as part of a team. I'll have to think about the implications of that. BTW if Dr. Destroyer is worried about Knockback, he has 80 STR to Brace with against it, and 8 Phases to play with if he needs to Abort to do that. Knockback Resistance from his Power Pool would be practical, of course, but he could probably get by without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > > Firewing beats Tanks too. Actually, his best EB can't penetrate the tank on average. OTOH, they're not likely to hit /him/, either. Well, he could haymaker the bigger blasts. Alternatively, rear shots should be easy. Question: Whenever Body damage is inflicted on a vehicle, does it disable one system, or one system per Body inflicted?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 One thing I'm trying to figure out, though, is how Eurostar handles ingress/egress from target sites. Several of them are bit lacking in mobility, and have little ability to blend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 > Well, he could haymaker the bigger blasts. Alternatively, > rear shots should be easy. The TUV stats for an Abrams have 20 DEF Hardened on all aspects but the nose, which is 30 DEF Hardened. > Question: Whenever Body damage is inflicted on a vehicle, > does it disable one system, or one system per Body > inflicted?? One system per attack that does BODY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Against a tank, Firewing doesn't need to use levels for CV. Therefore, he uses 4 levels for +2 DC to do 22d6 damage. First of all, it has a decent chance to do knockback (not having the real weapon limitation, it follows standard Champions rules). Any knockback that flips the Tank over probably dooms it. And if it doesn't, Firewing simply throws his explosion attack through the small 2 body hole that his first attack generated. I don't see too many crewmen able to survive the 12d6 explosion confined inside the narrow space of a tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 > First of all, it has a decent chance to do knockback (not > having the real weapon limitation, it follows standard > Champions rules). Any knockback that flips the Tank over > probably dooms it. It dooms it, all right -- it can't move or fire if it's turned turtle. > And if it doesn't, Firewing simply throws his explosion attack > through the small 2 body hole that his first attack > generated. I don't see too many crewmen able to survive > the 12d6 explosion confined inside the narrow space of a > tank. Especially not given that the ammo and fuel just went up, and everything inside the tank is now vapor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by Metaphysician One thing I'm trying to figure out, though, is how Eurostar handles ingress/egress from target sites. Several of them are bit lacking in mobility, and have little ability to blend. This was exactly the function of the (late, lamented) Bora on the 4E version of the team. If they needed to bug out in a hurry she could use AoE Telekinesis (wind) to airlift everyone at once. I'm still using that lineup for Eurostar BTW. It's a much more powerful and better balanced team than the one in CKC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Personally i liked eurostar in 4th ed, especially durak and pantera. great team but had to adjust all of them in the same way, this entire team of 500pt characters has an ego of 8 or 14 and NO mental defence, the leader has an ego of 11? Mentalla or even any third rate mentalist could controll this group, there all basically joe average. Hell even mentalla had only 23 ego and 15 mental defence total. i consider this to be downright bizare for the most powerful vilain group in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 EGOs are one area that is improved for the 5E Eurostar. They were generally higher for the New Millennium versions as well, and I incorporated some elements of those into "my" team. With Mentalla on your side, though, any attempt by a rival mentalist to control you (at least in combat) is liable to be brief. Besides, there were some serious Psych Lims among the Eurostar members that would need to be overcome. This is the CU villain team that most concerns me within the context of this thread, though. It's supposed to be the most feared group of supervillains in the world, and premier terrorists. Granted that a lot of terrorism is and should be of the sneaky variety, but the powers and personalities of this bunch are plainly intended to be able to kick butt and cause devastation through direct, highly visible action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 re: Eurostar -- yes, they're classic terrorists in methodology. Preplan escape routes, hit soft targets, be gone before the heavy response arrives. Or else hit soft targets, set up ground for killing ambush, wait for heavy response to arrive, cheap-shot it massively. I actually don't mind Bora being gone. Now the PCs actually have a chance to force an engagement and maybe win one or two, instead of 'OK, as soon as Eurostar doesn't like it, they laave.' As for sneaky -- well, all of them except Durak and Feuermacher /can/ be quite sneaky if they want -- heck, Scorpia's virtually nothing but, Fiacho is very well-rounded, Ultrasonique can just take the armor off, and Mentalla always has her little "This is not the sociopathic telepathic European terrorist you are looking for." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Eurostar was much better designed in 4e in terms of capabilities and I sure got the feeling they were supposed to be able to wade through conventional military forces. I think all of the members of Eurostar need to be reevaluated by comparing membership and writeups between the two editions and taking the best of both worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Here's a suggestion--why not evaluate how effective the Warlord and his crew would be against military opp? He's supposed to be a military genius, and a leader of his own small army, so it's quite likely that he would come into conflict with military forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by megaplayboy Here's a suggestion--why not evaluate how effective the Warlord and his crew would be against military opp? He's supposed to be a military genius, and a leader of his own small army, so it's quite likely that he would come into conflict with military forces. True -- although they'd hardly be likely to be First World military forces, given that his area of influence appears to be Southeast Asia. And I'm sure he could knock over any Third World dictatorship... especially since if he had the slightest amount of brains, he wouldn't be alone. (i.e. -- whoever else doesn't like his target du jour, he'd be with.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 We could use some more stats on the Warlord's troop and vehicle capabilities. The impression I got is that his forces are armor light, aircraft heavy, with lots of airmobile infantry tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Which is exactly what you need to go mess up Third World nations -- they're not exactly known for their fearsome tank battalions and large armored battles. To fight those kinds of militaries you need city fighters, infantry munchers, and superior mobility to offset their hordes of poorly trained peons with AK-47s... i.e., elite airmobile infantry and light powered armor troops. Add in the capabilities of the Flying Fortress to deliver heavy artillery support, and ultra-tech Hzeel grav gunships to be your air force, and I could see him running over someplace like Indonesia in under a week, barring superhuman intervention or the sudden arrival of a US Navy carrier battle group and Marine Expeditionary Unit... and even then, they'll be in a real fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 The Warlord's group would have to be beefed up to take on even a small country. The Flying Fortress only has 16 12d6 blasters, with only 300" range or 600 meters. Any jet will be able to shoot it down with ease, especially since it has only 12 Def. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by Lord Liaden This was exactly the function of the (late, lamented) Bora on the 4E version of the team. If they needed to bug out in a hurry she could use AoE Telekinesis (wind) to airlift everyone at once. I'm still using that lineup for Eurostar BTW. It's a much more powerful and better balanced team than the one in CKC. I agree that Bora and Pantera were a major loss to the lineup, but the Whip guy was a welcome deletion. When our team took down some of the Eurostar team, Scorpia went down early enough for one of our Martial Artists, Zlf to take out Mentalla while she was busy sparring (fairly successfully) with my Mentalist, Prodigy, who had mentally paralyzed Durak for three phases after Durak cold cocked our teleporting brick Sidestep...sort of a cascading rock, paper, scissors effect all around with two of the hero team standing and no Eurostar standing. If Z'lf had fought Pantera instead of Scorpia, the fight might have turned out far differently. Certainly if our flying Energy Projector had been present, Bora would have been a much tougher challenge than Fuermacher. Nonetheless, the fight was challenging enough for those of us involved. As Eurostar was literally the only component of the Hero Universe we have ever used in our campaign relatively unchanged, keeping Bora and Pantera would be an easy solution for the GM who ran the adventure, although he is new enough not to have all the fourth and earlier edition stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by Gary The Warlord's group would have to be beefed up to take on even a small country. The Flying Fortress only has 16 12d6 blasters, with only 300" range or 600 meters. Any jet will be able to shoot it down with ease, especially since it has only 12 Def. Yes, the 12d6 blasters are filling only the same role as the 20mm Phalanx mounts on a Navy vessel -- final point defense. The Flying Fortress' main defenses vs. air attack are most likely two-fold: a) as a flying carrier, it has aircraft of its own -- aircraft with Hzeel grav technology and blaster cannons. At /least/ comparable to the F-18 writeup, IOW. so long as he's only fighting Third World nations and not directly taking on First World superpowers, the Warlord will likely never face anybody with a modern or competent air force. The F-18 is much, much, /much/ more dangerous an opponent than, oh, a 10-year old Mig model being flown by a mediocrely-trained pilot, using missiles that were almost obsolete before I was born... and I just described most of the Chinese air force, let alone the military capability of the nation of South Nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg so long as he's only fighting Third World nations and not directly taking on First World superpowers, the Warlord will likely never face anybody with a modern or competent air force. The F-18 is much, much, /much/ more dangerous an opponent than, oh, a 10-year old Mig model being flown by a mediocrely-trained pilot, using missiles that were almost obsolete before I was born... and I just described most of the Chinese air force, let alone the military capability of the nation of South Nowhere. Actually, the Chinese air force has gotten a lot more dangerous lately. Their latest model J-10 fighter (based on technology and funding that Israel received from the US and sold to China) is supposed to have the capabilities of an advanced model F-16 aircraft. Also, they have received AWACS and missile technology from both Russia and Israel. They're still not close to the US, but they've caught up to most of the rest of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 > Actually, the Chinese air force has gotten a lot more > dangerous lately. Their latest model J-10 fighter (based on > technology and funding that Israel received from the US > and sold to China) is supposed to have the capabilities of an > advanced model F-16 aircraft. I'll believe /that/ when I see it. I remember the early over-estimations of the capacity of the Mig-31 and Sukhoi-25, too... very respectable airframes, but the avionics didn't live up to hype. And today, once you get the engines and airframe past a certain minimum point, it's the electronics that make you or break you. > Also, they have received AWACS and missile technology from > both Russia and Israel. /nods/ But even if I stand corrected at this point, all it means is that the Warlord shouldn't go to China, either -- not that he was going to anyway, seeing as how it's just too damn big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Mentor ICertainly if our flying Energy Projector had been present, Bora would have been a much tougher challenge than Fuermacher. Nonetheless, the fight was challenging enough for those of us involved. Umm, Thunderbird was present in our battle against Eurostar, Mentor. If you'll recall he not only rather easily shot down Ultrasonique, but managed a 12d6 EB hit or two against Mentalla before she Ego Blasted him out of the sky. Without the damage T'bird had already done to her (and which kept Mentalla from focusing exclusively on Zl'f) it's unlikely Zl'f would have been able to take down Mentalla in one hit, no matter how magnificent the actual damage roll was. (44 STUN on 10d6) While it's true that Zl'f was both the last MidGuardian standing and the one that ultimately knocked out Mentalla and finished the fight, without Thunderbird I seriously doubt we would have won that battle. Still at large: Fiacho and Feurmacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Trebuchet Umm, Thunderbird was present in our battle against Eurostar, Mentor. If you'll recall he not only rather easily shot down Ultrasonique, but managed a 12d6 EB hit or two against Mentalla before she Ego Blasted him out of the sky. Without the damage T'bird had already done to her (and which kept Mentalla from focusing exclusively on Zl'f) it's unlikely Zl'f would have been able to take down Mentalla in one hit, no matter how magnificent the actual damage roll was. (44 STUN on 10d6) While it's true that Zl'f was both the last MidGuardian standing and the one that ultimately knocked out Mentalla and finished the fight, without Thunderbird I seriously doubt we would have won that battle. Still at large: Fiacho and Feurmacher. Are you sure Thunderbird was there? I don't recall that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Agent X Are you sure Thunderbird was there? I don't recall that. No doubt because you were off Fighting Crime somewhere else. *Mutter* Damn smart alec... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Trebuchet No doubt because you were off Fighting Crime somewhere else. *Mutter* Damn smart alec... Most likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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