Kristopher Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Gary He can deal with the missiles the same way as with Sidewinders or Amraams. By exploding them before they reach him, jinking, or his Force Wall damage shield. To use the cannon, the choppers have to get close, and that's suicide vs Firewing. How many? From 4 sides at once? Does he have any idea that he's about to be bombarded by enough firepower to reduce several dozen tanks to useless husks? Each Apache can carry 16 Hellfire missiles, and fire them in rapid succession if need be. And you might be underestimating the range of the 30mm cannon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher How many? From 4 sides at once? Each Apache can carry 16, and fire them in rapid succession if need be. And you might be underestimating the range of the 30mm cannon. How many choppers are we talking about? Also, remember that Apaches are fragile. A few of them were shot down in Iraq by people with RPGs and AK-47s. Somehow, I think that Firewing can do a little better than ordinary guerillas and soldiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Quite a few, given the numbers they usually operate in. What is the range of Firewing's largest attack? If I'm doing the math right, a 100 AP attack only has a range of about 1640 feet, which leaves the Apaches plenty of cushion. In fact, the Apaches can probably surprise Firewing, given the range of the Hellfire and the typical tactics employed by Apaches in the field. EDIT: Actually, I think it's 3281 feet, but that still leaves the Apache with plenty of cushion using the Hellfire. And unlike most supers, Apaches, A-10s, and M-1A2s can actually hit with their attacks basically out to that maximum range. Tons and tons of levels to offset range penalties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Callahan Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Gary He can deal with the missiles the same way as with Sidewinders or Amraams. By exploding them before they reach him, jinking, or his Force Wall damage shield. To use the cannon, the choppers have to get close, and that's suicide vs Firewing. Going strictly by the write ups he can't do any of thoes things. The Helfires on the Apache are just a straight RKA. not a vehicle with and RKA like the Sparrow (and all the missles it stands in for) so his force wall/damage shield doesn't help, and it's an explosion, so he'll have to dive for cover to get away, and he wouln't be able to dive again when the second helicopter shoots at him (presuming there is a second helicopter) . Now the Helfire is just a straight RKA, no increaded range mod, or no range mod or anyhing, so it's only good out to 750", and with the Apaches OCV it's only really good out to at most 128" And at those distances firewing is going to kill them very dead in return, but if there are enough of them (like 6 or so) he's going to be in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Max Callahan Going strictly by the write ups he can't do any of thoes things. The Helfires on the Apache are just a straight RKA. not a vehicle with and RKA like the Sparrow (and all the missles it stands in for) so his force wall/damage shield doesn't help, and it's an explosion, so he'll have to dive for cover to get away, and he wouln't be able to dive again when the second helicopter shoots at him (presuming there is a second helicopter) . Now the Helfire is just a straight RKA, no increaded range mod, or no range mod or anyhing, so it's only good out to 750", and with the Apaches OCV it's only really good out to at most 128" And at those distances firewing is going to kill them very dead in return, but if there are enough of them (like 6 or so) he's going to be in trouble. If they only gave the Hellfire a range of .93 miles, and made it imposible for the Apache to hit anything at that range, then they really screwed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 If there are 6 of them, Firewing is probably in trouble. But he can handle 1 or 2. And if Hellfires really had several mile range, they would have to be built as vehicles which means they can be shot down before reaching him. Otherwise, they have to get close, in which case Firewing will nuke them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher If they only gave the Hellfire a range of .93 miles, and made it imposible for the Apache to hit anything at that range, then they really screwed up. You can say the same thing about Firewing, with a range of only 500" and wimpy attacks relative to military grade hardware. Both sides have to use the writeups as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Hellfires really do have a range of several miles. Apaches really do hit things with them at a range of several miles, and quite reliably too. And typically, the target never sees it coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 He has a good chance, but helicopters are better at hiding, and the hellfire is MORE accurate, though he might notice the laser illumination dot. Also, most hellfires are Shaped charges, so they need a direct hit, though imo they should also have a NON AP explosion also. And hellfire has a 6 kilometer range. Originally posted by Gary Of course if it were a helicopter instead of a jet, Firewing should win easily. The helicopter has to be close enough range for Firewing to be able to attack back. And Firewing (30 dex 7 spd) goes first and more often than your typical pilot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Gary You can say the same thing about Firewing, with a range of only 500" and wimpy attacks relative to military grade hardware. Both sides have to use the writeups as is. There's a major difference. The Apache and the Hellfire are both very real, and a write-up that doesn't translate their real-world capabilities into the game is _wrong_. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher There's a major difference. The Apache and the Hellfire are both very real, and a write-up that doesn't translate their real-world capabilities into the game is _wrong_. So is a writeup that allows Firewing to travel through intersteller space at 365 times the speed of light, but limits him to about 160 miles/hour maximum speed on Earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Callahan Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 I'm thinking that the helfire would probably be better represented as a vehicle (at very least for the continuity of having all missiles be vehicles), and then having the 4d6 2xAP be single target with something like a 2d6 explosion linked, Because while it does explode, it's a shaped explosion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Callahan Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 And also let me say that for quick reference on military hardware I love the guys at the Federation of American Scientists http://fas.org/man/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher Hellfires really do have a range of several miles. Apaches really do hit things with them at a range of several miles, and quite reliably too. And typically, the target never sees it coming. Don't they usually hit big slow negative DCV things such as tanks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Gary So is a writeup that allows Firewing to travel through intersteller space at 365 times the speed of light, but limits him to about 160 miles/hour maximum speed on Earth. Drag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Or fly them in through windows of buildings... Apparently the new fragmentation warhead got some "field testing" in Iraq. Originally posted by Gary Don't they usually hit big slow negative DCV things such as tanks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher Drag. Or very poor character building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Gary Don't they usually hit big slow negative DCV things such as tanks? From 6 km away, a tank is not big. At 30 mph over terrain, a tank is not slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by gewing Or fly them in through windows of buildings... Apparently the new fragmentation warhead got some "field testing" in Iraq. A non-moving window is still probably DCV 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Kristopher From 6 km away, a tank is not big. At 30 mph over terrain, a tank is not slow. But wouldn't you agree that from 6 km away, Firewing is a lot smaller than the tank? And at 80 miles/hour combat speed throughout any of the three dimensions that he's much faster and more maneuverable than the tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Gary But wouldn't you agree that from 6 km away, Firewing is a lot smaller than the tank? And at 80 miles/hour combat speed throughout any of the three dimensions that he's much faster and more maneuverable than the tank? He does, however, glow like a beacon. Actually, against Firewing, I'd send a large number of fighters overhead, far out of his range, and launch as many Sidewinders as possible along as many trajectories as possible at once. He's one giant IR target begging to be shot at with IR-homing missiles. As he turns to blow one out of the sky, half a dozen slam into him from behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Yeah, a couple pages ago we pretty much concluded that Firewing could beat a single F-18, would be stalemated vs. a pair, and if we sent a whole squadron... ... hey man, it's the Macross Missile Massacre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Callahan Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg Yeah, a couple pages ago we pretty much concluded that Firewing could beat a single F-18, would be stalemated vs. a pair, and if we sent a whole squadron... ... hey man, it's the Macross Missile Massacre. That gives me a thought for the most EVIL build of the Quadellen Rau. Build the missles as vehicles, and then give them all the Teamwork skill so they can _coordinate_ their attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 That has my vote. EDIT on the other hand I have made a lot of compromises on how I Envisioned characters to get them to fit in one way or the other. Originally posted by Gary Or very poor character building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 If the pilots are smart, Firewing can defend himself against 1 or 2 fighters, but he'll likely never have the chance to damage them. Range and speed advantage seriously goes to the fighters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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