Anti-Mutant Racism

[Metaphysician]

A thread from another board on AntiMutant Racism ( Somewhat Disturbing )

 

Warning: Long. Thoughts??

[Chuckg]

Secondary Warning: Some disturbing POVs present.

 

Tertiary Warning: Some of the participants really don't like each other, and aren't shy about expressing it. Yes, including me.

[Hermit]

Whew... that's a lot of reading all right, at least for a forum.

 

Very interesting stuff. I've gotten into such debates before (Having been an X Geek in the 70s/80s as well as loving super RPGs).

 

Thanks, going to take a bit to process all of that.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Hermit

Whew... that's a lot of reading all right, at least for a forum.

 

Heh. That's the Rumbles Board for ya.

[proditor]

I'm still reading through the whole thing, but CU and you (ChuckG) touch upon my one main and enduring problem with mutant racism.

 

Okay, Johnny looks like a frog and has gills. No offensive powers at all. He gets discriminated against as a mutant and a potential threat to society...

 

Meanwhile, we have this guy with long blond hair, swinging a hammer that totals buildings and who says he is a god, but that's okay...

 

Um...no. If we're really afraid of the power, it should apply unnilaterally to anyone in the union suit. Some have such a history (Read as Captain America) that they overcome this without even worrying about it. But Marvel has stated that the general public believes that Thor only thinks he's a god and do not believe in his divinity. That being the case, why hasn't anyone locked him up? Where is the religious right? I'd be a lot more afriad of guy who delusionally thinks he's a god and causes billions worth of property damage when he swings his "Magic Hammer".

 

Kudos to CU (And in part DC who usually has the norms hate anyone in a costume when the pendulum swings) as opposed to trying to make an arbitrary seperation that in most cases cannot even be defined. I mean, Jean Grey was a model for a while...

 

Rant off, back to reading.

[FenrisUlf]

Thanks for nailing a problem I always had with Marvel and anti-mutant sentiment. I mean, you've got people who like the Thing, the Hulk, and who even stuck up for Wrewolf by Night and Dracula for crying out loud -- but everyone sees Jean Grey or Cyclops and goes 'eew, a dirty mutie!' They could be a little consistent.

 

I'd be more worried/scared of the Hulk tearing my neighborhood to the ground than of a gal who has a little TK.

[proditor]

Yeah, considering what Jean looks like, I REALLY doubt my first thought would be "Ewww, a dirty mutant."...

[RDU Neil]

Important Rant

 

Originally posted by proditor

I'm still reading through the whole thing, but CU and you (ChuckG) touch upon my one main and enduring problem with mutant racism.

 

Okay, Johnny looks like a frog and has gills. No offensive powers at all. He gets discriminated against as a mutant and a potential threat to society...

 

Meanwhile, we have this guy with long blond hair, swinging a hammer that totals buildings and who says he is a god, but that's okay...

 

Um...no. If we're really afraid of the power, it should apply unnilaterally to anyone in the union suit. Some have such a history (Read as Captain America) that they overcome this without even worrying about it. But Marvel has stated that the general public believes that Thor only thinks he's a god and do not believe in his divinity. That being the case, why hasn't anyone locked him up? Where is the religious right? I'd be a lot more afriad of guy who delusionally thinks he's a god and causes billions worth of property damage when he swings his "Magic Hammer".

 

Kudos to CU (And in part DC who usually has the norms hate anyone in a costume when the pendulum swings) as opposed to trying to make an arbitrary seperation that in most cases cannot even be defined. I mean, Jean Grey was a model for a while...

 

Rant off, back to reading.

 

This has always been an issue with me. The "anti-mutant" deal... but the Human Torch is "a-ok!"

 

C'mon!

 

I've always played up any anti-paranormal bias as "anti-power." People are just afraid of other people who can fly, shoot energy beams from their eyes and topple buildings when angry. Genocide was a fringe group that was quickly crushed in my campaign, but it's members found purchase in the anti-metahuman, pro-PRA, right wing political groups and agencies. Those made more sense, and had lasting impact on my campaign. Metahuman vs. normal human... that is the real social conundrum.

[Metaphysician]

Well, to be fair, people like Thor and Human Torch get mostly exempted due to membership in teams with *very* good public images. Whatever the current state of affairs, Avengers and Fantastic Four are usually accorded at least basic respect.

[megaplayboy]

Were I ed-in-chief at Marvel, I would impose a 1-year moratorium on anti-mutant/mutant supremacist storylines across all X-books, and tell them to come up with creative plots that have nothing to do with that cliche'. Then after they all walked off in protest, I'd hire new writers;)

[Klytus]

Re: Important Rant

 

Originally posted by RDU Neil

This has always been an issue with me. The "anti-mutant" deal... but the Human Torch is "a-ok!"

 

C'mon!

 

I've always played up any anti-paranormal bias as "anti-power." People are just afraid of other people who can fly, shoot energy beams from their eyes and topple buildings when angry. Genocide was a fringe group that was quickly crushed in my campaign, but it's members found purchase in the anti-metahuman, pro-PRA, right wing political groups and agencies. Those made more sense, and had lasting impact on my campaign. Metahuman vs. normal human... that is the real social conundrum.

 

Another problem is that it seems that the vast majority of humans are not simply biased against mutants, but have an outright bigoted hatred of them. In a world where we have been working to overcome prejudice for the past several decades, the notion that anti-muatant prejudice is so potent and pervasive is just out and out wrong.

 

I agree that it is logical to assume that people would be fearful and suspicious of those who have such fantastic powers. But only some people would have the burning hatred exhibited in the Marvel titles.

 

This is how it is in my Champions universe: People are, by and large, accepting of metahumans, but this is because the first metahumans on the scene in recent public memory were heroes who set good examples with their use of their powers. Those who have earned the public trust with good deeds and bravery are hailed as heroes - those who are criminals are feared and hunted. Heroes who betray public trust are especially reviled.

 

But still, there are those who power who mistruct metahumans to the point that they try to "contain" them with registration acts and the whole bit. There are also radical anti-metahuman extreemists who so hate and fear metas, they are like Genocide in their efforts to "cleanse" the world of them.

 

In short, there is a diversity of attitudes - just like in real life.

[proditor]

Yeah, my universe is fairly similar. There is still the social remnant of the patriotic heroes of the 40's and WW2. People still remember Major Victory, Minuteman, G.R.U.N.T. and Stonewall for instance. That engendered the idea that "Yeah, some of those wrong thinkin' types work for the ratzis, but we got our own heroes right here!" Couple that with the heroes who emerged in the 60's to stop the first "true" super-criminals", and yes some folk distrust people with powers, but really no more than they get nervous around a cop or an FBI agent.

[Trebuchet]

This dichotomy has always been one of my biggest beefs with Marvel too. There is simply no rationale that would have people afraid of someone who is a mutant (perhaps with an amazing power like turning blue or levitating) and being perfectly comfortable around the Human Torch or Thor. Marvel came up with the idea of mutant persecution in the 60s as an implicit way to criticise racism, but their model simply doesn't make sense. Much more plausible would have been a general fear of being around villainous attacks on good supers; after all who wants to have lunch in the same restaurant as the Fantastic Four when Doctor Doom might attack at any minute? A super entering a public area might well result in a fleeing mob afraid of getting caught in a superbattle. Somehow "It's Cyclops, run for your life!" doesn't seem to exist in the same universe with "Eh, it's just Iron Man. Pass the mustard."

 

Supers percieved by the general public as heroes or as non-dangerous might get some slack after a while. After all, any cop who pulls you over can kill you with his pistol but most people are not terrified of the cops. But a certain degree of nervousness would still be realistic around most paranormals. People often fear what they don't understand, especially if that something has the power to hurt them.

[Chuckg]

Re: Re: Important Rant

 

Originally posted by Klytus

Another problem is that it seems that the vast majority of humans are not simply biased against mutants, but have an outright bigoted hatred of them. In a world where we have been working to overcome prejudice for the past several decades, the notion that anti-muatant prejudice is so potent and pervasive is just out and out wrong.

 

[snip]

 

In short, there is a diversity of attitudes - just like in real life.

 

I agree. Whenever I've DM'ed the question, or advised other DM's, I've always taken the tack that the violently hateful anti-mutant or anti-paranormal bigots are just as screwed up in the head, and have the same issues, as the violently hateful bigots of all other creeds. Racism is racism, no matter what the race.

 

PS -- speaking as a right-winger and for the right-wingers, I'd like people to stop reflexively labelling the militant racists as "right-winger". Thank you.

[proditor]

I understand the idea that the Avengers and the FF get some slack, but honestly...where is the religious right? Not the politicos, the Avengers have worked for and with them. No need to shoot your own foot so to speak. I mean the Moral Majority, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell? This kook with the hammer claims he is a god. If according to them we're subject to earthquakes and floods due to our lax morals and acceptance of things like Homosexuality, shouldn't the fringe religious groups be trying to get Thor burned at the stake?

[Killer Shrike]

I think the main parsing occurs in the thought that non-mutant supers are accidents, or science based, or otherwise are corner-case examples of alteration, whereas mutants actually represent a new kind of humanity. Like the Neanderthals faced with the Cro-Magnom, non-mutants feel like they are being replaced by mutants. Any one of them could become an "Altered Human" if exposed to a radioactive insect, or something similar, but a mutant is BORN that way.

 

Im not saying there isnt a logical disconnect, but hate seldom has much to do with logic.

 

 

Alos, in Marvels defense, in many of the apocolyptic (not the character) and Futures Past scenarios, all supers were eventually wiped out, not just mutants.

[Doug McCrae]

I think the sort of prejudice directed at mutants in the MU would be more likely to fall on aliens, if any one group of supers had to be singled out.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae

I think the sort of prejudice directed at mutants in the MU would be more likely to fall on aliens, if any one group of supers had to be singled out.

Your baby wont be born an alien, but it might be born a mutant....part of a new "race" of mankind that will supplant you.

[Kristopher]

I think the fear of genetic contamination, of the "enemy among us", gives fear and loathing of mutants that extra kick. Think Invasion of the Body Snatchers. It also doesn't help that there are mutant supremesists out there (Magneto, et al).

 

It's not the fact that anti-mutant sentiment exists that puts me off about the MU. It's the fact that it's so deep and pervasive and unchanging, and the fact that it exists in such stark contrast to the wait-and-see attitude towards other supers.

 

Plus, who's to say that any particular super is a "mutant", when the super in question could just claim "it's magic" or "nanotech enhancements" or some other thing?

[Trebuchet]

Hank McCoy: Uh, yeah, I'm... er, a blue-furred alien. Yeah, that's the ticket!

[Dr. Anomaly]

The people who have the "Mutant Detectors" are the ones who say what is and isn't a mutant.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Plus, who's to say that any particular super is a "mutant", when the super in question could just claim "it's magic" or "nanotech enhancements" or some other thing?

Also known as "passing", like some light skinned blacks did in the past. (EDIT: in the US of course)

 

Look at it from a "game balance" slant. Other character archetype have to work a bit to explain how they got their powers, but the lazy player can say "Eh -- my guys a mutant. He was just born with his powers, end of story.", to which you reply as a GM, "OK, no problem. Of course, theres the whole giant mutant-hunting robot thing to deal with, but Im sure that you funneled all that time you saved by not coming up with a decent background into making your character a real number-punchin min-maxed monster, so you should do just fine on that front."

[AnotherSkip]

Yeah but game balance doesn't fly in the MU. Look at any of the posts on X vs. Y wherein X is a Marvellian and Y is a Dee Cee.

 

 

Though I gotta say it is a fair shake better to be a mutant than "uh, I'm an Alien?" from the lazy people dept.

 

And though you might argue that it was created as an anti racist statement in the 60's it definately is about anti-any racism.

 

One day the hated of today may be the majority of tommorow.

 

 

Hmmm.....

 

 

One wonders if the Yancy Street gang is anti semetic......

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly

The people who have the "Mutant Detectors" are the ones who say what is and isn't a mutant.

Like the Nazi party officials carefully poring over birth and marriage records to determine who is a "Jew"? That's not a very good precedent.

 

"Herr Doktor McCoy, kommen mit uns bitte."

 

"But, but, but..."

[Lupus]

The Mutophobia doesn't make rational sense because it isn't entirely rational. But then, prejudice rarely is.

 

People already posting have hit the nail on the head - people aren't afraid of superheroes in general, but they are of mutants. Why? Because mutants might live next door. They could be at the same school as your kids. They could be /teaching/ your kids. Your employees could be mutants. Any moment now, one of them could just explode suddenly in a power manifestation and blow up the school. Or use their position as teachers to tell little Jimmy that mutants are superior and he should bow to them.

 

Think of the problems we have today - many religious people are worried enough about secular teachers, and many secular parents are worried about religious teachers. Expand that to a sub-group that many people hold is trying to replace humanity, and you get instant racism. And since you can't tell who's a mutant, most of the time... when you do catch one, you better beat 'em up so they don't get away and kill someone before the cops catch up with them!

 

I mean, I know enough people RL who refuse to get into cabs driven by Middle-Eastern men. They don't like them because they can't get 'terrorist' out of their mind. I mean, one's own family is more of a danger to an individual than terrorism - but that doesn't stop these people from feeling justified in their hatred of anyone with a Middle-Eastern appearance.

 

So, people love the Avengers and the FF because they're distant. They're in their mansion or skyscraper and they're 'saving the world,' whatever that means. They're Doing Something Good. Mutants are next door. They're all over the place, threatening to replace us as an entire species.

 

(And, of course, there's a nascent distrust of superheroes that even the Avengers have felt from time to time. It's only their world-saving antics that keep them safe.)

 

Yeah, mutophobia is played up too much in Marvel. It shouldn't be nearly so commonplace as it seems. But it's not entirely stupid. Just not rational.