Harbinger of Justice

[Korvar]

The thing that narked me as I read the Harbinger's write-up, is that he was in the example characters section. This 800+ point monster was supposedly the example 250 point Dark Champions character...

 

As an aside, if Dark Champions is dealing with SWAT, James Bond, etc., which supplement will be dealing with street-level supers?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

The sticking point would be Hudson City, and why its so different from other cities, and lacking in public high-end superheroes. I'm sure *some* explanation could be whipped up, like a local oddity in the mana level or something.

There's a mystical energy siphon deep beneath Hudson City. It's existence is known within the mystic community but no sorcerer has been willing to tempt fate and enter the city to discover the reasons. Even the enigmatic Witness has avoid the area.

 

All superhumans entering the area decrease in power-level over a relatively short period of time. Even more surprising is the fact that the superhumans do not seem to realize that their powers and physical prowess has been reduced by the siphon. The citizens in general seem oblivious to the idea that their heroes are less powerful then beings like the Sentinels or popular Champions.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Korvar

As an aside, if Dark Champions is dealing with SWAT, James Bond, etc., which supplement will be dealing with street-level supers?

I believe the two supplements on the 2004 schedule (Hudson City & Predators) will both be for street-level super though they will be broad enough to be used in an SWAT or espionage-type game.

 

I assume the genre will be expanded with a "super-spy" or "urban military" sourcebook next year, in much the same way that Star Hero and Fantasy Hero both have 2 campaign books, if it proves of interest to the fans and to DOJ. I don't know how popular Danger International was so I really cannot comment on what might be forthcoming.

[Korvar]

This is the old, "Why is there a Gotham if there's a Metropolis" problem, isn't it?

[Korvar]

Originally posted by Monolith

I believe the two supplements on the 2004 schedule (Hudson City & Predators) will both be for street-level super though they will be broad enough to be used in an SWAT or espionage-type game.

 

I assume the genre will be expanded with a "super-spy" or "urban military" sourcebook next year, in much the same way that Star Hero and Fantasy Hero both have 2 campaign books, if it proves of interest to the fans and to DOJ. I don't know how popular Danger International was so I really cannot comment on what might be forthcoming.

 

I think "Dark Champions" as a name should apply to supers, rather than "normal" folk like SWAT and spies. I liked the "Danger International" name, actually

 

Ah, well. Maybe when I run my own game company...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Korvar

This is the old, "Why is there a Gotham if there's a Metropolis" problem, isn't it?

Basically yes.

 

The problem with Champions and Dark Champions is that they use two different power-levels. In the "normal" CU super-soldier-man has most Characteristics above 20. In the "dark" CU super-soldier-man will mostly likely have no CHA over 20, or at least probably not more than one over the NCM. So Nighthawk in "dark" CU is radically weaker than Nighthawk in the "normal" CU. That inbalance frustrates me and throws the flow of the game off to me because you cannot mix-and-match. You can't take the Champions into Hudson City because they are too powerful and you can't bring most Hudson City heroes (outside of Harbinger) into Millennium City for a crossover because they are too weak.

 

In my mind you might as well make Hudson City an alternate dimension rather than deal with those continuity inbalances (assuming that 5E DC will be similar in power-level to 4E).

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Korvar

I think "Dark Champions" as a name should apply to supers, rather than "normal" folk like SWAT and spies. I liked the "Danger International" name, actually

I think DOJ decided to stick with Dark Champions because it's already trademarked, thus no reason to re-register it. It's also a recognized commodity, though I think the name will confuse most buyers as they'll be expecting to see a book about low-level supers, not a genre book about Normal Hero.

[Kzinbane]

Metropolis & Gotham

 

Superman, Green Lantern and others regularly come visit Gotham city in DC. There really isn't the "major menace" often enough in Gotham to justify a really super, super spending full time there. On the aside there really isn't room either! Let's see... we have the Batman, Batgirl, Robin, Huntress, Canary and Oricle all based there along with a cybornetic guy who is a Doctor - only seen him a few times. In short Gotham is pretty full already, and Batman doesn't typically make newbie heroes feel very welcome.

Superman and the like are quite content letting Bats and gang take on the nasty Gotham bad guys. Most of them take a bit of brains as opposed to brawn to catch - and it doesn't hurt to be a bit insane yourself (like Batman) to catch them.

 

Same thing could easily be true in the Champions universe. It's not that supers cant operate in Hudson city, there just isn't enough going on there to really justify them. I mean Thor or Green Lantern spending all their time chasing petty theives, druggies, bank robbers, gang members and the like?

Not going to happen.

[Monolith]

Re: Metropolis & Gotham

 

Originally posted by Kzinbane

Same thing could easily be true in the Champions universe. It's not that supers cant operate in Hudson city, there just isn't enough going on there to really justify them. I mean Thor or Green Lantern spending all their time chasing petty theives, druggies, bank robbers, gang members and the like?

If there's enough activity in Hudson City to justify a 256 page "Enemies" book (bigger than CKC) then there would be enough activity there to justify the Champions, Sentinels, and Justice Foundation being there on a regular basis as well.

[Eyendasky80]

I think the Gotham analogy is still sound. You could fill 256 pages with Batman enemies (with complete backgrounds) pretty easily. Now if you think Superman or other heavy hitters should be working Gotham, well there you go. But Hudson city is teeming with crime, right? Maybe it's just not on the "Champion" level.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Metropolis & Gotham

 

Originally posted by Kzinbane

Superman, Green Lantern and others regularly come visit Gotham city in DC. There really isn't the "major menace" often enough in Gotham to justify a really super, super spending full time there. On the aside there really isn't room either! Let's see... we have the Batman, Batgirl, Robin, Huntress, Canary and Oricle all based there along with a cybornetic guy who is a Doctor - only seen him a few times. In short Gotham is pretty full already, and Batman doesn't typically make newbie heroes feel very welcome.

 

Actually, Alan Scott lives in Gotham, too.

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

He is?! Where? I didn't see him in the Champions Universe book itself.

 

 

FWIW I made the secret ID of the Harbinger Donald Henderson, aka the Marksman from George MacDonald's "Guardians" campaign, a bunch of old Champions book covers, and the Champions comic-book series. The Marksman came into contact with the mystic Skull Pendant (from To Serve and Protect), which warped his desire for justice to an extreme level. The Marksman officially "retired" from superheroics before HoJ appeared on the scene.

 

Ooh! That's a great idea! Very nice!

[Monolith]

Re: Re: Metropolis & Gotham

 

Originally posted by Champsguy

Actually, Alan Scott lives in Gotham, too.

Let's not forget Jason Blood/Etrigan either.

[KA.]

Originally posted by Eyendasky80

I think the Gotham analogy is still sound. You could fill 256 pages with Batman enemies (with complete backgrounds) pretty easily. Now if you think Superman or other heavy hitters should be working Gotham, well there you go. But Hudson city is teeming with crime, right? Maybe it's just not on the "Champion" level.

 

I agree with this, and with Kzinbane.

Hudson City could have a lot of crime, at a lower level.

Also, due to the higher lethality of Dark Champions, combined with the lower power level (and lower defenses), you could have a much higher mortality rate among Villains.

For that reason, you would need a lot of them.

Also, a hero from a more "upright" city, may not want to "dirty their hands" by mixing it up with a bunch of freaks that are strung out on designer meta-drugs.

Also, a lot of the "darker" villains "need" to be taken out permanently, there is no reason to put a four-color hero in a situation where a known killer is going to constantly get out on bail, kill off witnesses, etc. Since they can't kill them, and "the system" is too corrupt to hold them, it just leads to endless frustration. Not fun, which is the point.

Also, lower powered Villains (except the truly crazy like The Joker) seem to "Know their Role!"

You don't see Bane going out of his way to trade punches with Superman.

However tough he thinks he is, he just "knows better".

 

So, there is some justification for keeping the two world's apart, execpt on "special occasions" (meaning "crossover"), and we all know that things get a little skewed when that happens.

 

KA.

[Monolith]

I personally don't buy the concept that one particular city is more "gritty" so it must have less-powerful heroes and villains. I certainly have no problem with the idea that Dr. Destroyer has not interest in Hudson City, but it would not seem logical that someone like Warlord would not be interested in the goings-on of HC, especially when considering that he is a cold-blooded killer who is also a weapons dealer. I could also see all the mercenary-type villains (Utility, Mechassassin, Lazer, etc) also finding a home within HC. And what about Black Harlequin? Isn't he a cross between the Joker and Toyman? "Gritty" does not have to mean weaker. Batman is not weaker than Green Arrow because he works out of Gothan and GA works out of Star City.

 

I certainly have no problem with a grittier Gotham-like city in the CU, I love idea as a matter of fact. What I have a problem with is the power inbalance. Nighthawk should not be more powerful than the other heroes in HC when he shows looking for Mechassassin. The CU should have a consistant power-level. Not, for some unknown reasons, just happen to have a city where all the supers are greatly weaker than the rest of the world.

[Metaphysician]

You know, the Hudson City/DC side-setting element doesn't *necessarily* have to be weaker, pointwise, than default Champions. If the default point value is 250 Heroic, than thats about equal to a beginnging Champions character, once you factor in equipment. In which case, it becomes a matter of tone more than anything else.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

You know, the Hudson City/DC side-setting element doesn't *necessarily* have to be weaker, pointwise, than default Champions. If the default point value is 250 Heroic, than thats about equal to a beginnging Champions character, once you factor in equipment. In which case, it becomes a matter of tone more than anything else.

When I say weaker I'm referring to NCM limits and decreased Damage Classes. Most weapons in FRED do not exceed 7 Damage Classes, and thus you do not see much more than that in a Dark Champions game. Few "normal" Champions games have 7-8 DC limits.

 

Looking at Copperhead (20 DEX, 4 SPD, 8 DC attack) she looks quite weak next to Nighthawk (25 DEX, 6 SPD, 12 DC attack). In my mind the two characters should be about equal.

 

I like the concept of Dark Champions. I just don't like the power-level disparity between DC and NC. I think it throws the game out of perspective in many people's minds. I personally don't think we would have half as many NCM debates if DC and its NCM-type characters had never been introduced. I personally think Dark Champions should be a sub-genre of Champions; basically just playing Champions with a bronze/iron age mentality but the same general power-levels.

[Korvar]

Problem is, you can't, really. Apart from anything else, guns need to be a threat in a Dark Champions game, so resistant defences need to be limited.

 

There's lots of subgenres in the Dark Champions own subgenre, ranging from supers-who-deal-with-crime (Spiderman's both gone after muggers and fought with the Avengers) down to we're-all-guys-with-guns-and-no-powers.

 

Plenty for everyone, I'd think.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Korvar

Problem is, you can't, really. Apart from anything else, guns need to be a threat in a Dark Champions game, so resistant defences need to be limited.

 

There's lots of subgenres in the Dark Champions own subgenre, ranging from supers-who-deal-with-crime (Spiderman's both gone after muggers and fought with the Avengers) down to we're-all-guys-with-guns-and-no-powers.

 

Plenty for everyone, I'd think.

 

Low resistant defense does not a weak character make....

 

Further, there are somer nasty ammo options that can wreck the day of tougher characters.

 

Also, even if they can't kill a Hero, the STUN lotto makes bullets dangerous.

 

And did anyone *see* the old DC sourcebooks? Some of those baddies were scary for ANYBODY.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

And did anyone *see* the old DC sourcebooks? Some of those baddies were scary for ANYBODY.

Yeah, that's basically my point. Batman's villains are not weaker. They can hold their own against most of the heroes in the DC Universe. You just need to take Green Lantern and Superman out of the equation. Those two heroes are a category by themselves in the same way that Dr. Destroyer is in the Champions Universe.

 

I just don't see a reason why only low-powered characters would gravitate to Hudson City when it seems like a good percentage of the villains in the CU would enjoy being there as well.

[Koshka]

Originally posted by Monolith

Looking at Copperhead (20 DEX, 4 SPD, 8 DC attack) she looks quite weak next to Nighthawk (25 DEX, 6 SPD, 12 DC attack). In my mind the two characters should be about equal.

 

Not quite a fair comparison, since Copperhead is only 239 points -- and while it's not on her character sheet, she reads like she was built with Normal Characteristic Maxima.

[Prototype]

A few things here... this is my first post, so hi!

 

Anyway, characters in Dark Champions don't have to be any weaker than their four-colour counterparts, but how they spend those points has to be different. So none of the 'Dark' heroes are going to have masses of flight, FTL movement, megascale mental powers or the like. But built on the same points they can hold their own.

 

In my recent DC campaign the heroes were built on 200 base with 300 disadvantages, I'm sure most of them could have held their own against most CU supers but none of them felt out of place in a DC campaign up against (slightly revised) versions of Predator, Card Shark, etc. Some sample characters...

 

Jack Hudson - The living embodiment of Hudson City, the Cabal tried to summon and bind the spirit of the city for their own ends, but it went awry and so Jack showed up nearby. He's basically just a really tough, really strong basass. Whilst in Hudson City he's amazingly tough, fast and strong... outside of the city he's not much better than your average man. But with Str 30 (extended push though, plus double KB), Dex 24, Spd 5, Damage Reduction 50% resistant, plenty of levels, some minor regeneration, martial arts (dirty infighting - it's a dirty town!) with DCs and a bunch of city/tough guy related powers he could hold his own against most supers.

 

The Doctor - A wealthy philanthropist who dedicates himself to helping the less fortunate he has an armoured body suit and a wide range of gadgets, skills and equipment. Not to mention vehicles and the like. Fairly Batman like and kinda omnicompetent. He also has a team of experts that work with him and give him tactical advice/monitor police bands/etc. for him. Hippocratic oath and all that sort of thing... fits in well in DC and has enough gadgets, training, skills and options at his disposal to take down your average CU guy (nerve gas, spray foam, liquid nitrogen, flash pellets, etc.)

 

Seeing as the thread is about the Harbinger... we actually totally loved having him around as he was so much more extreme than the heroes, thus making him their enemy. However, given that HoJ is fundamentally 'good' he didn't want to hurt them. The Doctor in particular hated him after one particular event...

 

The heroes went to a mansion that Card Sharks men were ransacking, unaware it contained a lab that manufactured drugs. The inhabitants of the house had fled to the back of the vast garden were they met up with the Doctor. As he was reassuring them they'd be okay and that his friends would take care of Card Shark's goons the HoJ leapt over the wall and blasted the group with full auto from an assault rifle. He then runs off toward the house...

 

The Doctor, sworn to protect all life, is outraged... but rather than go after the Harbinger he sets himself the task of attending to the wounded (and mainly dying) men in front of him. Meanwhile the HoJ tries to literally bring the house down and finds himself involved in a fight with Jack Hudson and his two mates... they manage to hurl his explosives away before they go off and then they get involved in a running battle with him down the lawn.

 

So there's the Doctor... out of the six critically wounded men he's managed to save five.. he's cursing himself for losing one and resting up just as the HoJ comes running past again and pops some bullets into each of his patients - killing most of them outright! At this the doctor loses it and flies for the Harbinger, who manages to hold him and his team-mates to a standstill until the police arrived breaking things up!

 

Needless to say the Doctor decided he wanted to find the damn Blue Moon Killer after that!

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Koshka

Not quite a fair comparison, since Copperhead is only 239 points -- and while it's not on her character sheet, she reads like she was built with Normal Characteristic Maxima.

I think you're missing my point here. The problem with Dark Champions and the reason I feel it should not be part of the mainline CU is because the heroes use a lower characteristic and power level. DC is built around the premise that most characters are 3-4 SPD, less than 20 DEX, etc. CU is built along the premise that characters are 5-6 SPD and more than 20 DEX.

 

It doesn't matter that Copperhead is only built on 239 points because no starting character in DC will be built on 350 points. My whole point is that my character Darknight in DC will never be as powerful as Nighthawk even when they are both starting level. Because of that I can never use DC characters in my CU game without making them more powerful or use CU characters in my DC game without making the weaker. If it's the same universe/world/country then make both characters equally powerful and have Hudson City just be darker and grittier, not weaker.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Monolith

I think you're missing my point here. The problem with Dark Champions and the reason I feel it should not be part of the mainline CU is because the heroes use a lower characteristic and power level. DC is built around the premise that most characters are 3-4 SPD, less than 20 DEX, etc. CU is built along the premise that characters are 5-6 SPD and more than 20 DEX.

 

It doesn't matter that Copperhead is only built on 239 points because no starting character in DC will be built on 350 points. My whole point is that my character Darknight in DC will never be as powerful as Nighthawk even when they are both starting level. Because of that I can never use DC characters in my CU game without making them more powerful or use CU characters in my DC game without making the weaker. If it's the same universe/world/country then make both characters equally powerful and have Hudson City just be darker and grittier, not weaker.

 

They do?

 

I don't know about post 5th books, but the sample characters for 4th (bar copperhead, who is NOT CU, and Scarecrow, who was Heroic level) were as powerful (or MORE powerful) than the sample characters for baseline CU. They were a few points of DEX lower, but not THAT much... (and that was to squeeze in SKILLS, something considered inappropriate for normal superheroes....)

 

Has a decision been made to power down DC?

 

'Cause if not, then they'll probably use the 'DEX 30 is still human' standard, and build them on 350.

 

I mean... who is this person that will make DC weaker than CU? When did they get hired? Why are they disregarding the entire previous line of published source materials?

[Enforcer84]

Because I love to do that...

 

Hmm? I wasn't hired to revamp Dark Champions? Oh.

 

 

 

Nevermind.