GMs decide - "entangle escape" decision

[Kzinbane]

I have in my game a mage that uses incantations and gestures to cast spells. He has (wisely) built himself a triggered spell that will teleport him a short distance if he is entangled.

Here's the clincher. By book terms entangle can be used to cover a huge number of situations all the way from webbing around you to a strength drain, force bubble - whatever - entangle is the effect regardless, you are restricted in movement.

What do other GM's think about this? Are all entangles the same and a trigger to port when entangled should always work regardless of the actual device or power doing the entangling?

 

I like to think I am a pretty fair GM. There are times though where I feel it prudent to see what others think given the same situation...

[Trebuchet]

Since there is an Entangle-specific advantage that prevents escape by Teleport, I'd say any Entangle without this Advantage could be escaped by Teleport.

[Kristopher]

What Treb said.

[Demonsong]

I third that.

[Supreme Serpent]

Hmmm...exactly how does this trigger work/how is it defined/how does it determine where to t-port him?

 

Couple of thoughts:

 

a) sounds like the player is trying to make his limits not be actual limits anymore - ex saves 50+pts, pays 10pts to get power that eliminates his limit. If this is the case, I would severly scale down the value of the limit, perhaps even making it a -0 special effect, or disallow the t-port. Sounds like having most powers "only works in intense magnetic field" and buying change environment without that limit, and which creates, surprise! - an "intense magnetic field".

 

If this is not the case, I would make sure that the trigger is more explicit, like "when arms restrained" - wouldn't necessarily help vs stasis rays, etc. If it is broadly defined, the character may find himself teleporting in his sleep when he rolls over onto his arm and restricts its movement. It will also be hard to hug this guy.

 

c) This has good "deathtrap" possibilites. If it always teleports him 2", for example, put him in a room with 5" thick walls and have an AE entangle in the room - he gets entangled - teleports - into an entangle - teleports - etc. and is caught in a loop he can't get out of. If this costs him END, he's in real trouble.

[Demonsong]

c) This has good "deathtrap" possibilites. If it always teleports him 2", for example, put him in a room with 5" thick walls and have an AE entangle in the room - he gets entangled - teleports - into an entangle - teleports - etc. and is caught in a loop he can't get out of. If this costs him END, he's in real trouble.

 

Very cool idea!!!!!

[winterhawk]

Originally posted by Supreme Serpent

a) sounds like the player is trying to make his limits not be actual limits anymore - ex saves 50+pts, pays 10pts to get power that eliminates his limit. If this is the case, I would severly scale down the value of the limit, perhaps even making it a -0 special effect, or disallow the t-port. Sounds like having most powers "only works in intense magnetic field" and buying change environment without that limit, and which creates, surprise! - an "intense magnetic field".

 

I totally agree. I wouldn't allow it in my game. On the slim chance that I did, I would limit the types of entangles the character could use this power on.

[Kzinbane]

I can't really consider that he's abusing the gestures limitation as he's only got so many slots for spells and he's using one up with his entangle escape auto-port.

I need to see exactly how it's written down I guess (no doubt he'll soon read this post and be happy to show me the write up on the spell).

I have thoght of a few "fun" ways to deal with it. My villains don't know about it yet (yes I know, I am them but I don't tell them everything I know). Once they find out then they can use some intersting counter effects.

[Supreme Serpent]

From the sound of it, there are some game-specific conventions ("only so many slots available for spells") involved that might alter things. So, if you don't feel it's an attempt to sleaze the system, great.

[Kzinbane]

Mages

 

Well I wanted to allow him to be a mage - which kind of means VPP invent anything he can think of. I figured this would be too much so limited him to having only so many spells available at any given time (slots we call them). He usually has an EB, an entanble, a mental blast and defenses in them but can change them around given time. He recently made a cloak of flight so he doesn't need to keep a flight spell in a slot for example.

Magic is tricky though in "my" universe. I think magic effects should more fallow dictionary terms than Hero terms so "entangle" by default means somethign other than say - what a high gravity environment would do. In my mind if you use "entangle" as defined and used in HERO/Champions it's a bit too open ended. Yes, it may stop you from moving just like duct tape, but it's VERY different.

By Game day Sunday he'll no doubt read this thread so we'll be able to hash it out long before a villain nails him with one (probably - even I am not absolutely sure what is going to happen from game to game...).

As usual, I appreciate the responses and suggestions!

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Kzinbane

I can't really consider that he's abusing the gestures limitation as he's only got so many slots for spells and he's using one up with his entangle escape auto-port.

I need to see exactly how it's written down I guess (no doubt he'll soon read this post and be happy to show me the write up on the spell).

I have thoght of a few "fun" ways to deal with it. My villains don't know about it yet (yes I know, I am them but I don't tell them everything I know). Once they find out then they can use some intersting counter effects.

 

It's also worth noting that this is not infallible. A Dispel can eliminate the triggered power before it activates, and a Suppress could have a similar effect. And once that Trigger goes off, he'll need to spend an action to reset it before it will work again, so a second Grab/Entangle would do the trick.

 

Then, of course, there is the Ultimate Failsafe. "If you can do this, keep in mind that NPC spellcasters can as well." If the players as a group balk at this, then it shouldn't be allowed for only the PC wizard!

[winterhawk]

Originally posted by Kzinbane

I have thoght of a few "fun" ways to deal with it. My villains don't know about it yet (yes I know, I am them but I don't tell them everything I know). Once they find out then they can use some intersting counter effects.

 

May I suggest something that prevents the character from speaking (Darkness vs. Hearing?) since you mentioned Incantations as well.

[KA.]

There may be mitigating campaign rules, but this sounds like fine aged cheese to me.

I would go by SFX.

If if is a Paralysis ray, T-port won't work.

If it is a sticky blob of glue, T-port won't work.

Since there is an advantage for Entangle that T-port won't escape, make sure you apply it to every special effect it is appropriate for.

 

If the Gestures Limitation saves points because the character's hands must be free, and he has arranged it so that his hands are always free, that limitation should not be worth anything.

 

Take a look at 5th Ed. Page 194.

 

If Gestures is a -1/4 Limitation, it should affect the character's use of the power one fourth of the time.

 

Does this character have a problem casting one spell out of four due to Gestures?

 

Unless he fights with a lot of Teleporting Octopii that can Half-Move and Grab him before he gets off his spell, I doubt it.

 

Entangles are one of his few weaknesses, and I doubt that 1 in 4 opponents has one. Even if they did, with his T-port, that would be no real limitation, other than wasting a few spells.

 

This just seems a little too unbalancing for me.

 

Just my opinion.

 

KA.

[Caped Crusader]

Just to add spice to the discussion....

 

My character (Spellbinder) is the one Kzinbane is referring to.

 

It's a 0-END teleport (95% of his spells are 0-END), only moves 1", and has Safe Blind T-Port and Armor Piercing (several levels) on it. It's also only usable against Entangles or bindings. It's not part of the VPP slots allotment, it's a stand-alone power, and it's also the only spell he knows that doesn't require gestures and incantations. The trigger is worded "Trigger when he is Entangled or otherwise bound". No, it wouldn't stop any kind of Silence (this would eliminate the Incantations, thus disabling him), and there are number of other ways around it. (I certainly won't list the ways I've thought of. I've already come up with several. He doesn't need my help!) In my own defense, I know it'll only work once or twice before the bad guys figure it out and find a way around it. (Kzinbane is very devious. Think of Dr Doom without the stainless steel threads). It's a reasonable precaution seeing how every power the guy has (except the t-port itself) uses both gestures and incantations. He has normal 10 strength, so it's basically the only way he's going to escape an Entangle. Originally, I had it pump up his STR to enable him to have a better chance of breaking out, but changed to a teleport because I liked the effect better. Rather than a game-rule dodge, I think of it as a reasonable thinking-ahead kind of defense a smart spellcaster would use. I mean, seriously, the guy waving his arms and intoning spells is a pretty obvious target for that kind of thing.

 

OK, I'll put it to you folks. How else does a 10-STR character escape an Entangle, if none of his other powers function? Seeing as Entangles are only susceptible to either a Teleport or doing damage to it, without something like this, 1 Entangle and he's completely out of the fight and at the mercy of the bad guys.

 

[BNakagawa]

I also have a mystic character with low STR and who can't launch their attacks when entangled.

 

I built an automaton follower that has enough STR to rip off a standard entangle. It's an enchanted suit of armor, animated by the life force of a battlemage from ages past. You could just as easily replace it with a familiar, animated weapon or whatever.

 

You could also rack a triggered dispel vs entangles. That oughtta work whether it was bought with the advantage that blocks teleports or not.

 

$0.02

[Guest cubist]

Why not allow it? Its one get out of jail free card that he won't likely get a chance to reset the trigger during combat, so it won't make him immune to entangles- just the first one. As to effect, if the entangle sfx is a physical binding of any sort, let him out, but if its, say, a nerve-locking electrical touch, he's SOL.

Just my thoughts, YMMV.

[Herolover]

Most of you are forgetting something.

 

IMO

There are two main things to look at here.

 

1) Does the Entangle have the +1/4 Cannot be escaped Teleporation advantage. If the Entangle has that limiation then obviously the triggered Teleporation doesn't work.

 

If the entangle does NOT have that advantage then the Triggered Teleporation works.

 

As far as other spells that have Incantations and Gestures it would depend upon the Entangles SFX. If the character was put in a "force bubble" and could still talk amd move I would allow them to cast spells, but they would have to go through the DEF and BODY of the Entangle and for NON-damaging spells I woud rule the Entangle would take a certain amount of active points off the spell making some unable to get through the Entangle.

 

SFX is VERY important. As an example I will give you a situation that happened in my campaign recently. I have a character that has a Flash Attack because he shoots a blob of stuff that covers a peron's eyes. I flahsed LAZER (from CKC). LAZER has Flash defense defines as polarizing lenses. My flash to the sight group so I asked the GM how do polarizing lenses help to see through the blobby mass on his eyes.

 

Yes, he has flash defense, but it didn't work because of my SFX. Don't forget SFX.

[austenandrews]

I would rule that the spell MUST be FX based. Entangle is just a game mechanic; the Trigger must apply to an in-game situation. If you define the Trigger as "when the character is restrained" that's fine, but some Entangles wouldn't set that off, and some non-Entangle circumstances would (like a Grab).

 

-AA

[KA.]

Originally posted by Caped Crusader

Just to add spice to the discussion....

 

My character (Spellbinder) is the one Kzinbane is referring to.

 

It's a 0-END teleport (95% of his spells are 0-END), only moves 1", and has Safe Blind T-Port and Armor Piercing (several levels) on it. It's also only usable against Entangles or bindings. It's not part of the VPP slots allotment, it's a stand-alone power, and it's also the only spell he knows that doesn't require gestures and incantations. The trigger is worded "Trigger when he is Entangled or otherwise bound". No, it wouldn't stop any kind of Silence (this would eliminate the Incantations, thus disabling him), and there are number of other ways around it. (I certainly won't list the ways I've thought of. I've already come up with several. He doesn't need my help!) In my own defense, I know it'll only work once or twice before the bad guys figure it out and find a way around it. (Kzinbane is very devious. Think of Dr Doom without the stainless steel threads). It's a reasonable precaution seeing how every power the guy has (except the t-port itself) uses both gestures and incantations. He has normal 10 strength, so it's basically the only way he's going to escape an Entangle. Originally, I had it pump up his STR to enable him to have a better chance of breaking out, but changed to a teleport because I liked the effect better. Rather than a game-rule dodge, I think of it as a reasonable thinking-ahead kind of defense a smart spellcaster would use. I mean, seriously, the guy waving his arms and intoning spells is a pretty obvious target for that kind of thing.

 

OK, I'll put it to you folks. How else does a 10-STR character escape an Entangle, if none of his other powers function? Seeing as Entangles are only susceptible to either a Teleport or doing damage to it, without something like this, 1 Entangle and he's completely out of the fight and at the mercy of the bad guys.

 

Ouch,

I am being put into a position that I don't really like, which is:

"Cranky Old Hero Player who thinks every cool idea I come up with is illegal.":)

However, being in that position, let me present it.

 

Caped Crusader,

Your argument does not appear to hold water.

Imagine if I said that I wanted to play someone with a multi-function Gun.

I save a bunch of points by buying it as an OAF, and I put all of my powers into it.

The only power I don't put in it, is an automatic grappling hook that will automatically snatch it back if anyone tries to take it from me.

Well, if you can't take it away from me, it isn't an Accessible Focus anymore, is it?

"But," I say, "My character isn't very strong and he isn't very fast. If someone took his gun away, I couldn't catch them, and even if I did, I couldn't wrestle it away from them. So I really need my grappling hook!"

Well, then I probably should use some of the points I saved to buy up my STR and Running.

Or I should bite the bullet and pay full cost for some of my powers so I'm not useless without my Gun.

But it is not fair to the other players if you get to have the extra Points from Limitations, and you are able to get around having them cause you any trouble.

 

KA.

[winterhawk]

Originally posted by KA.

Ouch,

I am being put into a position that I don't really like, which is:

"Cranky Old Hero Player who thinks every cool idea I come up with is illegal.":)

However, being in that position, let me present it...

 

Also falling into the "Cranky Old Hero Player" category , I totally agree with KA. Its not a Limitation unless it limits you in some way. I also agree with everyone else's comments about sfx. Handcuffs would prevent use of powers, force bubbles would not.

 

Is this character in a solo game? If not, I think my teammates would help me out in an entangle situation. I know if I was on a team and our mage with the VPP (who tend to be very flexible and powerful) got jammed up with an entangle, I'd go "Oh crap, we need this guy" and help him bust out of it.

 

As a GM, I wouldn't have every VIPER agent in every adventure throwing entangles at you. Limitations are meant to limit, not cripple. I tend to use Limitations as vehicles for drama in the course of a story. "Dark Seraph is about to unleash the Beast-from-Hell and only The Mage can stop him...and he's bound in the middle of the summoning pentagram! What will the heroes do?!"

 

Just ranting from a crotchety old gamer. "Why back in my day, we didn't have VPPs...and we were better off for it!"

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Most of you are forgetting something.

 

Originally posted by Herolover

IMO

There are two main things to look at here.

 

1) Does the Entangle have the +1/4 Cannot be escaped Teleporation advantage. If the Entangle has that limiation then obviously the triggered Teleporation doesn't work.

 

If the entangle does NOT have that advantage then the Triggered Teleporation works.

 

As far as other spells that have Incantations and Gestures it would depend upon the Entangles SFX. If the character was put in a "force bubble" and could still talk amd move I would allow them to cast spells, but they would have to go through the DEF and BODY of the Entangle and for NON-damaging spells I woud rule the Entangle would take a certain amount of active points off the spell making some unable to get through the Entangle.

 

SFX is VERY important. As an example I will give you a situation that happened in my campaign recently. I have a character that has a Flash Attack because he shoots a blob of stuff that covers a peron's eyes. I flahsed LAZER (from CKC). LAZER has Flash defense defines as polarizing lenses. My flash to the sight group so I asked the GM how do polarizing lenses help to see through the blobby mass on his eyes.

 

Yes, he has flash defense, but it didn't work because of my SFX. Don't forget SFX.

 

Er... 'blob of goo to the eyes' is either an entangle or an NND Flash. See... no kind of 'regular' flash defense should affect it.

[Caped Crusader]

KA...

 

As far as the grappling hook analogy, I can think of several ways right off-hand that would get past that and make it unusable. The grappling hook idea sounds like it would work only in very specific circumstances. So, no, he wouldn't *always* get the gun back.

 

The main reason I added the T-Port was because the mechanics of Entangles only leave a couple of ways of getting free, and entangles are relatively common. As others have pointed out, there a number of ways this escape can be thwarted.

 

Also, I can think of several instances right off-hand in the genre where both heroes and villains have set up small escape-clause powers to cover obvious vulnerabilities such as this.

 

Do I need to narrow the scope of the trigger?

[Supreme Serpent]

OK. Again, we don't know enough about the character and the game to really make informed judgements. But, from what we've seen here, my issues:

 

- All his spells require gestures&incant. , except the one that enables him to get out to use all of his others. It's a bit handy, isn't it? I'd actually feel better about it if it was set up through the VPP (required the gestures&incant to set up, can only go off once before being reset) rather than on its own. Trigger a healing spell "when I take BODY damage" etc. I could live with same way. Or, I'd like to see it as a magic item that he made - an "Amulet of Apportation" or somesuch that could be taken away from him. Either way, I'd feel better about the character as a GM.

[zornwil]

I'm surprised to see so much discussion after I think Trebuchet actually made the single conclusive point on this, frankly.

[Caped Crusader]

Actually, Z, the levels of Armor Piercing on the Teleport get around (through?) that Teleport Block...