Need Help With Teleport Power

[schir1964]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

And yet someone else who doesn't understand. Ok. I'll try again.

 

I understand your confusion. You think just because the GM doesn't put and AP Cap that this allows the players to just make theiir characters so they can take over the universe. Contrare Monfrare. (8^D)

 

If the GM thinks a contruct is going to mess up the game straight out, regardless of points, he tellls the player to go back to drawing board. We have mature players who don't try this kind of stuff usually. (8^D)

 

Does this help?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[TaxiMan]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Well, the definition of the VPP is that it can only be used to mimic the effects of calling a mundane object. Doesn't sound abusive...?

 

For a power to be "Hero System"-like, I'm imagining that the in-game effects are spelled out. If the only in-game effect is to teleport something to you and that's all, then we've got a good power construct already (Teleport, Megascale, UAA, plus some way to detect the object at range).

 

"Hero System" -wise, if the object will be used for something else (increase skill, damage/fix something, learn something, etc.) a character could use the Power skill to try a stunt. If the same stunt gets repeated often enough, a power is needed.

 

I'm thinking that the definition ("summon mundane object") plus the unlimited points results in a not-very-Hero System type of power. Seems more like Storyteller or some such. Still lots of fun if you have fun people to play with, but not well defined in Hero terms.

[Foxiekins]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Dude, flat out, unless you tell us what effects this provides the character, we aren't going to be able to help you...

 

In Hero System, you purchase the effect, and we can't help with that if we don't KNOW the effect...

 

If the Player says "I wanna have a power... How much will it cost?", and the GM asks "What does the power do?", and the player smirks and says "It's a *secret*...", then not only is the GM not going to be able to give the Player an answer, he might just throw him out of the game...

 

However, if this still isn't sinking in, turn to page 149, 169, and 176 of FRED...

 

1" of Teleport, the minimum purchasable amount, costs 2 points... Megascale at +1 & 1/4 will expand it to planetary scale... Usable on Others powers are inherently No Range unless you take the Ranged Advantage for them (+1/2), and you have to have Usuable as Attack if the Character is the one in control (+1)... This is a total +2 & 3/4 Advantage, meaning that 1" of Teleport has an Active Cost of 7 points... And takes 1 END to use... The rules warn about applying Limitations to a Useable as Attack power, unless the Limitations only affect the character who creates the power, but that *is* the case here, so it's okay...

 

Then, buy 2 Fixed Locations for the Teleport... The cost is 2 points, period... The rules specify that a Fixed Location can be Living Creature or a Particular Object, so 1 Location is the Character, and the other is the Object he can teleport... With Fixed Locations, he need not perceive them with a Targeting Sense to teleport...

 

Then, apply the Limitation "Only to teleport Object to me" (-2)...

Total Cost = 4 points... 7 / (1 + 2) = 2.333333333, rounding to 2 for the teleport, plus 2 points for the Fixed Locations... This will handle an object of up to Human Mass... For larger objects, each doubling of Mass will be another +1/4 Advantage, affecting the Active Cost, but you should be able to handle it from there...

 

But, I also point you at page 348 of FRED, which lists Meta-Rules for the Hero System... Look particularly at Meta-Rules 5 and 6...

 

Rule 5: One Power should not be used to do what another already does...

Rule 6: If two Powers (or other game elements) are equally valid ways to create a particular ability, you must use the more expensive of the two...

 

If you don't tell us what effects the character gains from the ability, we have no idea if it breaks Rule 5 or not... Also, without knowing more, we cannot tell if this is cheaper or more expensive than other possible methods, whether other valid methods even exist or not, or tell anything about relative validity... We can't work properly in the dark...

[schir1964]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Well' date=' the definition of the VPP is that it can only be used to mimic the effects of calling a mundane object. Doesn't sound abusive...?[/quote']

It could be, if that is what the concept was, but it's not. It's being able to bring one single unique item. Once chosen, that is all that can ever be teleported to the character's location, ever, from that point on. Whether it's his favorite book, or skateboard, or car, once chosen, then that will be it forever.

 

For a power to be "Hero System"-like, I'm imagining that the in-game effects are spelled out. If the only in-game effect is to teleport something to you and that's all, then we've got a good power construct already (Teleport, Megascale, UAA, plus some way to detect the object at range).

Precisely, and that's what I came up with and defined on the second page of this thread, but it was basically ignored and no one bothered to even comment on it. Check it out and let me know what you think. (8^D)

 

"Hero System" -wise, if the object will be used for something else (increase skill, damage/fix something, learn something, etc.) a character could use the Power skill to try a stunt. If the same stunt gets repeated often enough, a power is needed.

That will be under the GM's control completely. Just like a normal skateboard a character can buy in the store. The GM will control just how much game effect it will have. That concept is what got people sidetracked. (8^D)

 

I'm thinking that the definition ("summon mundane object") plus the unlimited points results in a not-very-Hero System type of power. Seems more like Storyteller or some such. Still lots of fun if you have fun people to play with, but not well defined in Hero terms.

The unlimited points makes people think that the players can come up with whatever they want as far as power scale. That's not what happens here. The players still have to the powers approved. It's a pass or fail thing based on just how unbalancing the power is, regardless of points. You can have 30 AP power that's more unbalancing to a campaign than a 60 AP power depending on certain combinations.

 

What I was trying to explain is that although the power may be considered way too expensive for what it actually does game wise, in our game, the player isn't penalized based on points as long as it fits the character's concept and won't unbalance the game by it's sheer concept to start with.

 

Is any of this making any sense or am I just babbling now? (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Dude' date=' flat out, unless you tell us what effects this provides the character, we aren't going to be able to help you...[/quote']

I think I've done several times in different posts, but I'll do it again, just to make sure.

 

The character has profound affinity for an object he possesses. I could be his favorite book, skateboard, first car he purchased, etc...

 

Any, having super powers, this has allowed him to "bond" with this one specific normal everyday item. This bond allows him to bring this object to his location whenever he wants.

 

The object might have some uses from time to time, but since it is just a normal item, it can be used by anyone, stolen, damaged, destroyed. It doesn't grant the character any abilities beyond what a normal item could grant any character. This is what got everyone hung up last time. The GM will make sure the character does not try to turn this into a some sort of free power.

 

Now that is the Effect. I came up with Teleportation as the most appropriate power to simulate this. I needed help with making sure that I was using all the proper Advantages/Limitations to achieve this effect. On the second page I posted what I thought would be the Power with all the options. You can check it out and let me know what you think. I could be missing something, but I don't think so at this point.

 

Now on to your suggestions. (8^D)

 

1" of Teleport, the minimum purchasable amount, costs 2 points... Megascale at +1 & 1/4 will expand it to planetary scale... Usable on Others powers are inherently No Range unless you take the Ranged Advantage for them (+1/2), and you have to have Usuable as Attack if the Character is the one in control (+1)... This is a total +2 & 3/4 Advantage, meaning that 1" of Teleport has an Active Cost of 7 points... And takes 1 END to use... The rules warn about applying Limitations to a Useable as Attack power, unless the Limitations only affect the character who creates the power, but that *is* the case here, so it's okay...

Okay, now this is useful, maybe I missed something. I thought that UOO and UAA were handled as separate Advantages? Are they cumulative? I'll have to recheck this.

 

Although UOO automatically gets No Range, UAA takes on whatever range the power has that it is applied to. At least that is how I read things. Maybe I'm wrong. Please give me a specific reference if I'm totally wrong on this.

 

Then, buy 2 Fixed Locations for the Teleport... The cost is 2 points, period... The rules specify that a Fixed Location can be Living Creature or a Particular Object, so 1 Location is the Character, and the other is the Object he can teleport... With Fixed Locations, he need not perceive them with a Targeting Sense to teleport...

Why two Fixed Locations? I thought I would need one? If need another it's only another point, but curious as how you came to this. Like you, I realized the Fixed locations would take care of perception problem nicely.

 

Then, apply the Limitation "Only to teleport Object to me" (-2)...

Hmmm.. interesting, I thought the Can Only Teleport To Fixed Locations (-1) took care of this nicely. Where did you get this limitation? Custom or from a Hero Book?

 

For larger objects, each doubling of Mass will be another +1/4 Advantage, affecting the Active Cost, but you should be able to handle it from there...

Yeah, we're on the same page. That's very close to what I came up with.

 

But, I also point you at page 348 of FRED, which lists Meta-Rules for the Hero System... Look particularly at Meta-Rules 5 and 6...

Yeah, I'm familiar with them. Based on this, Teleportation should be used over Summon, just because it costs more. I don't agree with this. If one is simpler than the other and they are both "equally valid" then simpler one should be chosen, but that is just me. However, since I think Teleportation is more valid than Summon, it doesn't apply here. But I greatly appreciate the reference. Thanks.

 

Is there anything else you need to help validate or invalidate my construction?

[Devon]

Another item to consider with teleport

 

Another item to consider: The MegaScale gap.

 

If you want to make sure it's as easy to teleport this object from across the world as from ten feet away, you need to account for the Megascale gap -- even if you take the optional +1/4 to scale back any level of MegaScale to the minimum of 1 km per inch, this doesn't help you if you your Mundane Object is just beyond that wall, in the hands of that one hiding player. Options:

 

a) forget about the MegaScale and just buy enough inches of Teleport to cover the world

build an MPP, with 2 - 3 versions of Teleport optimized for Local, Continental and Global scales

c) make sure your teleport has at least +1 in Variable Advantages (+2) so you can scale it between local or global use as necessary

 

All three of these options assume that you also take the suggestions given earlier to used the Fixed Point, the limitations "Only This One Object" and "Only to my hand/side/whatever."

 

- Devon

[schir1964]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Thought I would repost what I had for easy reference.

Anyway, here's what I have so far. Based on everything I've read in the 5th Edition and the FAQs, this will do what's necessary.

 

Teleportation:

6" (12 Points)

1 Fixed Location (1 Point)

Increased Mass x32 (25 Points)

 

Useable As Attack (+1)

Megascale [10000 Km] (+1 1/4)

Scale Down Megascale [1 Km] (+1/4)

 

Can Only Teleport To Fixed Locations (-1)

 

Summary:

Teleportation of one unique object to current location.

Character can teleport object up to the size of a large semi truck and trailer.

Character can not teleport himself to object. See UAA advantage.

Teleportation takes a full phase since it is Non-combat Only teleport. See Megascale Advantage.

Fixed location allows object to be teleported from anywhere on planet. [1 Km - 60,000 Km].

Character is unable to teleport object within 1 Km. Has to walk. (8^D)

 

Total Cost: 61 Points

 

The increased mass is overkill, once the actual object is chosen, then the mass will be determined and it will be reduced to fit, and the cost will drop with it.

 

Comments?

[GamePhil]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Well, being able to summon his favorite skateboard that may or may not give him an extra inch of Running is certainly not worth 61 points. It's worth 2, because all it does is allows him an inch of Running with no Focus, since he can just summon it back. Possibly a little less, since the skateboard can be destroyed even though it can't really be taken away.

 

Calling up a truck might be worth more, but it's still not worth 61 since you could buy the truck as a Vehicle and give it the ability to teleport to you and a Mind Link for less than that.

 

And so on and so forth. You said that the character would be able to call up one mundane object that he is attached to, and never change it. That really sounds like you should first figure out what the object is and if it has any effect that the character could logically pay for. If it does not, just apply some ability (I'd go with Perk: Can Summon Up Favorite Copy Of Wuthering Heights, myself) with a small flat cost (say, 1).

[Devon]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Hey, if you want to walk that extra kilometer, have a ball. Unless you have Detect [Your Object], or know for certain which direction you left it, you may not know which direction to walk.

 

If you don't care about points, turn that +1 3/4 MegaScale advantage into a +3 1/2 Variable Advantage so you're not obligated to MegaScale.

 

I'm telling you, that guy'll hide behind a wall with your fetish object, and you may never get it back. He'll follow you when your back is turned. Show him who's boss. Get the Variable Advantage.

 

- Devon

[schir1964]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Your Variable Advantage idea has some merit... hmmmm.... have to think on that.

[GamePhil]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

On further reading: Let me make sure I understand you. You slammed people for requiring that the person pay for this item, whatever it happens to be, for its effects. Then you created a Power for the character that costs twenty times as much as anything they suggested. Then when someone suggested that you up the cost still more, you say the idea has merit.

 

I admit to being quite confused.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

I admit you are confusing me as well Schir...

 

Just a thought though....I've heard you mention several times that points aren't a factor. If this is so, they why worry? Just say he can do it and move on. The best games don't even need rules, so don't hang yourself, or you players, with them.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

I think that was a bit rough and probably uncalled for Hawksmoor.

 

Granted, Schir seems intent upon buying this ability using Teleport, but perhaps that's because the GM said he had to buy it that way. Who knows? But let's not give a fellow herofan the smackdown just because he doesn't want to post details about his character in a public forum. He probably has other players in his group posting here and for all we know this is a special little somthing being cooked up by him and his GM (or maybe he is the GM).

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Oh that is what DELETE does.

 

I thought it would be a placemarker stating a message was here and now it is not.

 

I stand behind what I said though, Shir really does not want help.

 

Hawksmoor

[Dust Raven]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Oh that is what DELETE does.

 

I thought it would be a placemarker stating a message was here and now it is not.

 

I stand behind what I said though, Shir really does not want help.

 

Hawksmoor

 

There is a BIG difference between not wanting help and not finding it, Hawksmoor. Although it stands to reason it is not your help that is wanted.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Hey' date=' if you want to walk that extra kilometer, have a ball. Unless you have Detect [Your Object'], or know for certain which direction you left it, you may not know which direction to walk.

 

If you don't care about points, turn that +1 3/4 MegaScale advantage into a +3 1/2 Variable Advantage so you're not obligated to MegaScale.

 

I'm telling you, that guy'll hide behind a wall with your fetish object, and you may never get it back. He'll follow you when your back is turned. Show him who's boss. Get the Variable Advantage.

 

- Devon

 

 

Maybe he has a personal movement power so he can go a KM away, Summon his Teddy Bear, and come back.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

On further reading: Let me make sure I understand you. You slammed people for requiring that the person pay for this item, whatever it happens to be, for its effects. Then you created a Power for the character that costs twenty times as much as anything they suggested. Then when someone suggested that you up the cost still more, you say the idea has merit.

 

I admit to being quite confused.

 

 

May I suggest you are far from alone in that...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Well, given the clear fixation on making this low utility power as high cost as possible, what about (sorry, no book with me so no costs):

 

Extra Dimensional Movement (to dimension where everything is the same except I have my Teddy Bear)

 

Usable Against Others (+1)

 

Aea Effect - Radius (+1)

 

Megascale AE (+1,000) - that should affect the entire universe

 

Transdimensional (+1?) - and all adjacent dimensions

 

Oh, better make that 0 END (+1/2)

 

And quadruple armor piercing (+2) so we don't leave anyone behind

 

It should be Fully Invisible (+1) so all anyone knows is Teddy's back

 

I think that covers it - anyone see anything I've missed?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

There is a BIG difference between not wanting help and not finding it' date=' Hawksmoor. Although it stands to reason it is not [i']your[/i] help that is wanted.

 

You are right, and Hugh's and Foxiekins, and a couple of others that escape me since I only want one window up. All of our help is unwanted.

 

Hawksmoor

[schir1964]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

On further reading: Let me make sure I understand you. You slammed people for requiring that the person pay for this item, whatever it happens to be, for its effects. Then you created a Power for the character that costs twenty times as much as anything they suggested. Then when someone suggested that you up the cost still more, you say the idea has merit.

 

I admit to being quite confused.

 

I said it has merit since it might make the power even closer to what I had imagined. I was willing to sacrifice the 1 KM limitation walking. I had never occured to me to use the Variable Advantage to get the additional flexibility that I had originally intended. It might increase the cost of the power, so what?

 

What I was opposed to was having to stat out some object that really doesn't need to be stated out. Had nothing to do with points, other than everyone else requiring it did because they want to use Summon.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

I said it has merit since it might make the power even closer to what I had imagined. I was willing to sacrifice the 1 KM limitation walking. I had never occured to me to use the Variable Advantage to get the additional flexibility that I had originally intended. It might increase the cost of the power, so what?

 

What I was opposed to was having to stat out some object that really doesn't need to be stated out. Had nothing to do with points, other than everyone else requiring it did because they want to use Summon.

 

Yep, as the fully consistent and well-received posts to this thread clearly indicate, statting out the object would be WAY tougher and farmore controversial than statting the ability to teleport it as a power.

 

Hey, YMMV, but when I post looking for ideas on how to contruct something, I'm generally hoping to get somne creative ideas on how to construct it - preferably options I have failed to consider.

[schir1964]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Well, it seems this has boiled down to attacking the person instead of any real discussion about trying to meet the SFX of the power.

 

Hawksmoor: Not sure why you continued to keep posting here? You seem intent on telling me and my GM how they should run thier games.

 

Hugh: You get some small applause from me for Sarcasm. Very well done. Unfortunately your suggestions won't help in defining the power to meet the SFX I specified. (8^D)

 

For the others you tried to help, thanks.

 

I guess I'll have to as Steve Long about the UOO and UAA advantages being cumulative.

 

I'll continue reading in case someone has something contructive to say.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

>>Hawksmoor: Not sure why you continued to keep posting here? You seem intent on telling me and my GM how they should run thier games.<<

 

No, I am intent on telling you that the assumptions you make have no relevance on core FRed. By the post you have a Superheroic game and want to use Heroic rules to play the game. Fine but you need to state that you are not playing by established rules. Second do not be smarmy when you dislike a posters response. If you did not want a variety of ideas you shouldn't have posted in the first place.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

Hugh: You get some small applause from me for Sarcasm. Very well done. Unfortunately your suggestions won't help in defining the power to meet the SFX I specified. (8^D)

 

Like Hawksmoor, I'm a big fan of trying to apply the rules as written. Sarcasm is just one more service we provide.

 

And I can tell you that, with the SFX you described, the answers I gave you are exactly whatI would give any player in my game - you don't need a 61 point power to get a 1 point benefit.

[schir1964]

Re: Need Help With Teleport Power

 

>>Hawksmoor: Not sure why you continued to keep posting here? You seem intent on telling me and my GM how they should run thier games.<<

 

No, I am intent on telling you that the assumptions you make have no relevance on core FRed. By the post you have a Superheroic game and want to use Heroic rules to play the game. Fine but you need to state that you are not playing by established rules. Second do not be smarmy when you dislike a posters response. If you did not want a variety of ideas you shouldn't have posted in the first place.

 

Hawksmoor

 

You've yet to give me a reference from the 5th Edition or the FAQs that say that the GM can not use the Optional Money system in a Superheroic campaign.

 

Without some reference from you to back up your claim, you are guilty of your own charge. It's your opinion until you can prove otherwise.

 

I gave my references for the Optional Money System and as far as I can tell, it says the GM decides whether he wants to use it in his campaign. Not "only heroic" games.

 

If I'm wrong on that, please give a reference and I'll gladly proclaim here that I was wrong and ask forgiveness.

 

So far, you attitude has been very antagonistic towards me and my requests. This does not help you convince me that you are right in the opinions you've been giving.

 

Sorry to have offended you.

 

- Christopher Mullins