Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

[beauxdeigh]

I come before assembled HEROdom with the following problem...

 

Three (or Four or Five) characters each carry a weapon. They can fight with their weapon and do just fine, but, occasionally, they run into a foe they can't beat individually. In these instances, they can group together and combine their weapons into one mega-weapon that can really dish out the damage. The characters will clump together behind the mega-weapon as they, as a group, fire it (and all cheer when they take down their target.)

 

So, how would you do this?

 

- I want all the characters to share the cost equally. I'd rather not have one bear the brunt of the mega-weapon.

 

- The mega-weapon will be limited in some way to a couple of shots only (since that's all it should take to defeat a given big bad) so they won't be reaching for it against every foe. (Plus they all have to clump up behind the damn thing when they wannt to fire it. One good AE could take them out.)

 

I am internally leaning towards a multipower with a little GM fiat. a couple of ultra slots for the weapon's normal use and a third ultra slot labelled simply "Mega-Weapon" or some such. Any good reasons why I shouldn't do this? Any better structures?

 

Thanks for your help.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

cough powerrangers cough

 

Divide costs equally seems the thing to do.

 

focus with multiple components

 

To Make certain that unconcious players cannot contribute and thus no megaweapon. 1/2DCV concentration.

 

x4 END cost divided by members of the team.

 

cough powerrangers cough

 

Hawksmoor

-Frog in my throat today.

[JMcL63]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

There's also a variant of the Aid power in UMA (p.119)- Arrays. This is intended to simulate the whole being more than the sum of its parts, and is dependent on the right characters being in the right place at the right time. It's not the megaweapon, but it could be developed to nicely complement the idea. Hope this helps.

 

PS. Heh, found the Array thing at last. I had been looking for it under Power Limitations instead of Aid.

[Blue]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

I had this idea when this was asked previously, but I didn't quite reason it out enough to post it...

 

Consider the characters individually buid a multipower. ONE multipower. They split the cost. If there are 5 characters, you give the weapon 6 slots. One is the Big Main Combined Power that takes up the entire MP pool while the other 5 are the individual powers.

 

It's clunky, in that I've never heard of multiple people buying a power together. But if your'e willing to take a leap for the sake of gameplay, it could work.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

xd6 EB, usable by one other, must be in contact--dice are additive, so the xd6 becomes 5x d6 EB.

 

apply appropriate limitations and season to taste.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

cough powerrangers cough

 

My first thought was Ghostbusters actually... "Do not corss the streams!"

 

My second thought was voltron.

 

My third thought was, you could use the Aid based Unimind in UNTIL (p166) for this... with a little modification of course...

 

...been doing WAY to much work on that blasted mentalist recently...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

"Every character contributes" is not unprecedented. A lot of teams pool points for bases and vehicles. So every character pays a portion of the cost of the powers, with the limitation "all 5 must be present to use". Build the power in stages that require two, three, four and all five, and you get a power that's weaker if all the components aren't there.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

Heh ... my first thought when I read the thread was, in fact, that it was reminiscent of the various Power Rangers gestalt weapons (Power Blaster, Zeo Blaster, Turbo RAM, Quadroblaster, Transdagger Star Formation, Unilaser, Vortex Cannon, Jungle Blaster, Storm Striker, Z-Rex Blaster, respectively by team). Yes, I know far more about Power Rangers than any 30 year old man should.

 

I typically do such by having whoever actually aims the blast (Red Ranger) buy a basic attack, then have each team member purchase additional dice of blast, Useable By Others, only useable by (main attacker), only to add to (name of special attack), all teammates must contribute (the last one's optional; of course, depending on just how your attack works). I briefly considered using Aid/Succor, but you'd have to up the Max on it.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

cough powerrangers cough

 

You should really get that looked at.

 

I was trying to keep this generic, be more of an all-purpose question, but, yeah, it's a Power Rangers thing. Voltron works, too, though.

 

Heh ... my first thought when I read the thread was' date=' in fact, that it was reminiscent of the various Power Rangers gestalt weapons (Power Blaster, Zeo Blaster, Turbo RAM, Quadroblaster, Transdagger Star Formation, Unilaser, Vortex Cannon, Jungle Blaster, Storm Striker, Z-Rex Blaster, respectively by team). Yes, I know far more about Power Rangers than any 30 year old man should.[/quote']

 

Damn. That's...impressive?...

 

I typically do such by having whoever actually aims the blast (Red Ranger) buy a basic attack' date=' then have each team member purchase additional dice of blast, Useable By Others, only useable by (main attacker), only to add to (name of special attack), all teammates must contribute (the last one's optional; of course, depending on just how your attack works). I briefly considered using Aid/Succor, but you'd have to up the Max on it. [/quote']

 

This sounds like the best bet thus far. It lessens the GM fiat necessity, and creates an actual power. Handwavium is a cool element and all, but the smaller the doses, the better. Thanks Col.

 

Any more suggestions from the masses?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

wait wait .. I thought you said crossing the streams was bad?

 

 

Here's two take, first is a large attack that requires everyone so it's Limited, the second a series of small powers that can become larger so it actually has an advantage on it.

 

Make the complete power and find out how many points it will cost, divide that amongst all the players. Make sure it has a -1 Limitation "all characters must be present and able to act to activate power" - this requires that the fast ppl in the group hold their phases until everyone is going on the same Dex in the same Phase:

10D6 EB, -1 Team Limitation = 25 Real Cost, in a five man team (of course it's a five man team, what other kind of team would do this?!?) everyone pays only 5 pts for the attack.

 

or

 

Everyone has "Power Beam" attack at x level. Add a +1/2 Advantage "Can combine with other members who have Power Beam" this way any two or more members can now combine their Power Beam to make a Bigger Power Beam *and* -1/4 "Must Act Together to combine" so they again have to coordinate to the same Dex and Phase (variation on Linked).

Power Beam: 5D6 EB, +1/2 "Can Combine Power Beams" - 30 Real Cost,

Five people combine to hit the enemy with a 25D6 EB...

which gives a nice big attack combined and a decent attack all on it's own.

[JMcL63]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

Beauxdeigh, I have been pondering this on and off since my last post. One thing I noticed, and which bugged me, was the suggestion that you have recourse to GM's fiat. I don't like this because I believe HERO is flexible enough that anything you want should be available without this last ditch. In the case of your own idea, I venture that building your megaweapon as some kind of vehicle or base and through the use of multiform might be the way to go.

 

That is: each PC has their basic form. They also all have a single multiform. This is essentially their normal selves, but with the appropriate powers changed for the vehicle/base megaweapon. When the PC's wish to use their megaweapon, they have to get into position, activate multiform on the same DEX in the same phase, et voila there they are with their megaweapon. I know this might be a bit late in the day, but I hope it helps.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

Here's one I've seen in published Hero books that might be adaptable to your use: "Serial Aid." In this case, each character buys an Aid that will apply to the Aid used by another member of the team, and also to the weapon (Power) that grows more powerful the more team members are present. So, the first character Aids his colleague's Aid, making it more powerful; the second character uses this enhanced Aid to boost another teammate, and so on, until the final team member applies his own greatly augmented Aid to the weapon Power. The Phases used for each application of Aid can simulate the actions needed to combine the weapon; beauxdeigh's construct suggests some other custom Limitations which could apply. If you want the characters to have to remain together until the weapon is fired, you could always change Aid to Succor.

 

(Well, you did ask for more suggestions.)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

I'm thinking this is nothing but Succor.

 

One team member buys a slot in his Multipower for the base attack.

Every other team member buys a Succor slot that Succors the first team member's base attack. Apply No Range and whatever increased maximums you need and ta-da! you've got yourself a mega weapon.

 

All the supporting characters need to be adjacent to the first for their Succors to work, and must maintain contact to keep the attack boosted. This easily simulates "creating" the megaweapon. Each character needs to pay END/Charges for his Succor, and the first will pay for the attack itself (put 1/2 END if it doesn't use Charges to keep the costs similar to the Succor).

 

P.S.: This sounds kinda neat. I think I'm gonna give my next villain group one of these and freak out the heroes...

[JMcL63]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

The quibble I have with the succour suggestion is that this puts one PC in particular 'at the centre' of the megaweapon. If this is what is desired, then that's fine, but it doesn't seem to me to be what was originally requested.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

The quibble I have with the succour suggestion is that this puts one PC in particular 'at the centre' of the megaweapon. If this is what is desired' date=' then that's fine, but it doesn't seem to me to be what was originally requested. [/quote']

 

True enough, but if they all have the same Succor and weapon Powers, then it doesn't have to be the same PC at the center each time.

[JMcL63]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

True enough' date=' but if they all have the same Succor and weapon Powers, then it doesn't have to be the same PC at the center each time.[/quote']Also true, but is this power one which will have one character central to its function, a gunner or pilot, say? I'm not familiar with the source that inspired beauxdeigh's original idea, but I reckon this original statement is fairly clear:

 

Three (or Four or Five) characters each carry a weapon. They can fight with their weapon and do just fine, but, occasionally, they run into a foe they can't beat individually. In these instances, they can group together and combine their weapons into one mega-weapon that can really dish out the damage. The characters will clump together behind the mega-weapon as they, as a group, fire it (and all cheer when they take down their target.)

 

It seems to me that the 'special effect' of this power is that the original weapons disappear as they are combined into the new megaweapon. Again, I'm not sure that Aid or Succour are the proper routes for this. I'll have to check my BBB soon to flesh these opinions out I guess!

[austenandrews]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

LL, your "Serial Aid" suggestion is wickedly deceptive. I love it. Would "Serial Succor" be greater or lesser? Hmm.

 

-AA

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

Also true, but is this power one which will have one character central to its function, a gunner or pilot, say? I'm not familiar with the source that inspired beauxdeigh's original idea, but I reckon this original statement is fairly clear:

 

Three (or Four or Five) characters each carry a weapon. They can fight with their weapon and do just fine, but, occasionally, they run into a foe they can't beat individually. In these instances, they can group together and combine their weapons into one mega-weapon that can really dish out the damage. The characters will clump together behind the mega-weapon as they, as a group, fire it (and all cheer when they take down their target.)

 

It seems to me that the 'special effect' of this power is that the original weapons disappear as they are combined into the new megaweapon. Again, I'm not sure that Aid or Succour are the proper routes for this. I'll have to check my BBB soon to flesh these opinions out I guess!

 

I'm not sure that this would be what beauxdeigh is looking for, either; just throwing out ideas. This can fit the special effect, though, if you picture each use of Aid/Succor representing one component of the mega-weapon being attached to the next one, until it's complete. Most of the source-material for this effect requires a bit of time for the combining sequence to be finished.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

LL, your "Serial Aid" suggestion is wickedly deceptive. I love it. Would "Serial Succor" be greater or lesser? Hmm.

 

-AA

 

If you mean "greater or lesser CP cost," I guess that would depend on how it's built. Succor is one-half the cost of Aid, but unlike Aid it costs END and requires continuous application. If you buy Reduced END (0 END) for Succor, and a custom Limitation like "All Users Must Remain In Physical Contact" for Aid (like what beauxdeigh was asking for, probably -1/2), the cost comes out about the same.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

Beauxdeigh' date=' I have been pondering this on and off since my last post. One thing I noticed, and which bugged me, was the suggestion that you have recourse to GM's fiat. I don't like this because I believe HERO is flexible enough that anything you want should be available without this last ditch.[/quote']

I agree about the flexibility of the system. Really it was a question of utility vs. effort. I know I can build it legally in the system, but do I want to do the amount of work involved. Writing "MegaBlaster" in one of the Multipower slots isn't terribly legal or reprsentative of the system's abilities, but takes little time and little effort and does the exact same thing as what you are suggesting.

 

For example, when I build the character's robot they'll be paying for a single form robot. Why? Because you never see the five individual robots fight a monster seperately, they always go directly into Mega-Robot mode. The seperate 'zords' really just a neat effect for the TV.

 

Still, I'd like to hear about system-legal ways of building the mega-blaster power, because it would be preferable to me to really build it.

 

In the case of your own idea, I venture that building your megaweapon as some kind of vehicle or base and through the use of multiform might be the way to go.

 

That is: each PC has their basic form. They also all have a single multiform. This is essentially their normal selves, but with the appropriate powers changed for the vehicle/base megaweapon. When the PC's wish to use their megaweapon, they have to get into position, activate multiform on the same DEX in the same phase, et voila there they are with their megaweapon.

That's an interesting thought. I hadn't thought about using Multiform for this, but Multiform isn't one of my favorite Powers. I always think of that Power for Jason Blood/Etrigan, Bruce Banner/Hulk kind of characters, where each sheet is an actually different personality. That's changed in 5th, and I need to adjust my thoughts about it.

 

I know this might be a bit late in the day' date=' but I hope it helps. [/quote']

No worries. This is a long term idea. I'm trying to develop it as a one(ish) shot game for a Con.

[JMcL63]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

I agree about the flexibility of the system. Really it was a question of utility vs. effort. I know I can build it legally in the system' date=' but do I [i']want[/i] to do the amount of work involved. Writing "MegaBlaster" in one of the Multipower slots isn't terribly legal or reprsentative of the system's abilities, but takes little time and little effort and does the exact same thing as what you are suggesting.

 

-SNIP-

 

Still, I'd like to hear about system-legal ways of building the mega-blaster power, because it would be preferable to me to really build it.

This is the classic HERO dilemma, which I've been thinking about today: to go the whole hog with a design, or to just cobble together the 'front end'. I know that doing the whole job can be hard work, but it can be worth it. I was designing a hive fleet for a bughunting game once. Obsessive that I am, I went into all the little details. As a result, not only did I have a set of powers for each beastie I was designing, but the limitations I had to apply to make them work also gave me lots and lots of very strong cinematic-style special effects and other neat stuff that my players enjoyed even as they were overwhelmed by both the game system (they were novices), and by the grim scenario I had dumped them in. So, dotting the i's and crossing the t's is well worth the bother if you want your creations to have real character instead of just a list of stats for delivering attacks.

 

Which is why I venture to suggest that, for a con one-off, working this idea out in full detail would probably be worth the bother- IMO you really want to pin everything down so that you have a fully realised conception for the day. Afterwards, you could always use the basic idea as a villain or something. So I have to ask: how long have you got to get ready beauxdeigh?

[beauxdeigh]

Re: The Succor Solution

 

Using Succor to boost one member's attack is another really good idea. I think it may be even with the UBO solution above.

 

JMcL63, I understand your concerns, but in the interest of full disclosure, the source of this idea is the various Power Rangers tv series, and, in the show, whenever the Rangers join their weapons together, they're pretty much using stock footage. So, yes, the same member would be the "trigger man" a full 99.9% of the time, even though it's a team effort kind of thing.

 

Good suggestion from LL and Dust Raven.

 

More solutions always welcome!

 

Hooray for thread necromancy!

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

This is the classic HERO dilemma' date=' which I've been thinking about today: to go the whole hog with a design, or to just cobble together the 'front end'.[/quote']

Yup.

 

So' date=' dotting the i's and crossing the t's is well worth the bother if you want your creations to have real character instead of just a list of stats for delivering attacks.[/quote']

True enough. Although my plan is to give the players really simplified character sheets to play with, I still want the detailed construction available for the players who want to see it. And I'd rather do the work and have what represents the genre. I just want to avoid it being unnecessarily complex.

 

So I have to ask: how long have you got to get ready beauxdeigh?

I haven't signed up for anything as yet. I just thought translating a regularly half-hour show (that's mostly fighting) into a 3-4 hour Con game would be fun to do, and hopefully fun to play. Especially if I get the feel of the genre right...which means I've had to subject myself to a bit more Power Rangers than I normally would watch. Eek.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help with a construct: several characters -> one mega power.

 

The problem with UBO is that they don't stack. Each is a seperate Power and the target's defenses apply to each seperately. This doesn't mean much if the Attack is NND or similar though...

 

I worked up a possible construct using Succor today at work (I love my job ). Here it goes...

 

One character (the one who fires the megaweapon) buys an Attack Power such as:

 

Megablast: EB 12d6 OAF 4 Charges (20 points)

 

Four additional characters buy:

 

Megablast Component: Succor EB 5d6 (60 maximum) 0 END OAF Only To Succor Specific EB Of a Specific Character (-1) (20 points)

 

To configure the Megaweapon, all five character must be adjacent. The four each use their Succor (each adding 15 points with Standard Effect) adding a total of 60 points to the primary EB. This totals a 24d6 EB. If a few characters are absent, the Megaweapon can still be formed, but will not be as powerful.

 

If you are planing on using fewer characters to form the weapon, you can lower the maximum on the Succors (or increase the dice of each). I wrote it up using a total of 5 because the points worked out evenly for each character.

 

As for the original weapons working seperately, just put each of these in a Multipower of at least 60 points and the option only costs each character 2 points.

 

If you want the forming of the weapon to take some time, just put the same Extra Time Limitation on each (though this would limit how often the weapon can be fired as well). I wouldn't worry about the time though. For my limited experience with megaweapons I've seen in various source material, nobody else does anything while it's being formed anyway, so it might as well only take a single action.