CLOWN for 5th Champions

[The Vanguard]

Hi I was wondering if there any hope for a official 5th Champion source book for CLOWN,

[Enforcer84]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

Nope.

 

 

Steve has made his distaste for the CLOWN team known before.

Can't say I'll miss them either.

[caris]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

hmmmm.... if Steve's only reason for not doing an official version of CLOWN is personal distaste, than I'd say it is a poor reason. On the other hand, I can see where they really wouldn't fit in as part of the Champions Universe without a reconcepting that would probably take too much out of what makes those that do like them like them.

 

There is of course the secondary issue of does DOJ own the rights to CLOWN. IIRC, Hero Games did not acquire full ownership to all the characters that they presented in some of the earlier supplements, so some of the earlier characters just may not be available for use.

 

 

Still, for me an interesting question is: "Is there enough interest in the funny, silly, or just plain odd type of super hero characters to warrant a source book for that kind of game?" CLOWN really, doesn't fit in the current version of the CU, and to make them fit would really run the risk of ruining the characters for the people that like them as they are. I like the fact that Dan and Steve are producing coherent settings like Terran Empire and Champions Universe to support Hero System, because I've felt that it is settings that have really been driving the table top rpg market for a long time. On the other hand, I do think that books like Ninja Hero which really doesn't have a supporting setting (currently, there may be plans for one in the future) have a space in the marketing mix as well. "Light Champions", the polar opposite of "Dark Champions", might just be such a book.

[Jhamin]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

While I know ClOWN had some real fans, I for one am glad they are gone.

 

In my opinion the biggest problem with them is that they are only funny once. Most of them were one joke villians. (He's a brick who only hits the guy who is "it" is only funny the first time). After their gimmicks got tired you were pretty much down to Merry Andrew as a source of weirdness.

 

Anyway, I just don't see exactly which plots you could run with them that you can't run now. The way I see it we still have Foxbat for lighthearted lunacy and if you want dark and disturbed 5th Ed has given us Black Harlequin. (I just ran the Omegaworld section of Champions Battlegrounds a couple hours ago, that's just some messed up stuff folks...)

[caris]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

Anyway' date=' I just don't see exactly which plots you could run with them that you can't run now. The way I see it we still have Foxbat for lighthearted lunacy and if you want dark and disturbed 5th Ed has given us Black Harlequin. (I just ran the Omegaworld section of Champions Battlegrounds a couple hours ago, that's just some messed up stuff folks...)[/quote']

 

Yes, Foxbat and Black Harlequin, they are so satisfying as humor in a campaign, after all the insane are ssooo funny. Black Harlequin in no way is supposed to be funny. He is supposed to be scary creepy. Foxbat, well, I just find him sad. He is just too pathetic for my tastes. While I find some of the posts about him here amusing, I just can’t find any use for him in my games. He is just too incompetent. Really the most entertainingly humorous still cannon character is Bulldozer, and to be honest I still feel bad about finding Bulldozer funny. The whole joke of Bulldozer and Foxbat are how incompetent they are, and that they don’t realize it. You don’t laugh with either of them, you laugh at them.

 

CLOWN is like any number of funny characters in comic books. Mr Mxlplks (sp?) or Bat-Mite or Impossible Man, they annoy a lot of people, but they do have a strong fan base, because that change of pace they bring when they show up in a more serious title.

 

What kind of plots can’t I run right now without them? Easy, anything that basically involves a silly, fun, and generally not lethal scenario that involves actually competent opposition, at least not without twisting existing characters more than I want to. Grab comes close, but I like the idea as keeping them as a group of fairly serious characters that are primarily concerned with making an easy quick buck without killing too many people. Grab aren’t really zany or madcap. Zany and madcap don’t fit in the Current Champions Universe, and that is OK.

[TheEmerged]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

This is where I chime in about a submission idea I've toyed with bringing to Steve before -- one I call "Champions Orphanage". Writeups for the people/teams that Mr. Long has made clear won't be canon for the 5th Edition version of the Champions Universe like CLOWN, Terror Inc, etc. Writeups that update the character sheets AND provide ideas for how to integrate them into existing campaigns -- complete with the caveat that these characters are not canon and will in no way be supported in future products.

 

For example, by all appearances Deathstroke isn't canon in 5th Edition CU. Champions Orphanage would give writeups for the people that want them -- both a serious writeup and a "parody" writeup for the people who want to go that way. But no future characters would ever have "Hunted by Deathstroke" for example.

 

Those of us that love the characters can have a standard to work with. Those that don't, won't have to worry about them. And at least in theory, Mr. Long and company make money off it.

 

And if they won't publish a book, maybe we can talk them into allowing a website to do this or somesuch.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

And again Emerged I would love for this to be an approved idea. With the exception of StrikeForce I lack alot of the older Champions products. At the time canon writers were not "up to snuff" to oppose OKC writeups. Now in my nonpowergamer mode I am enthused to see the canon writeups.

 

I am behind the project to bring Merry Andrew (Fine Just Merry Andrew if not the rest of CLOWN), VOICE, DEATHSTROKE and the gang into the 5th ED. VOICE in particular is SO amazing it hurts. Dr. Photon with a sideorder of Goshawk please.

 

Hawksmoor

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

And again Emerged I would love for this to be an approved idea. With the exception of StrikeForce I lack alot of the older Champions products. At the time canon writers were not "up to snuff" to oppose OKC writeups. Now in my nonpowergamer mode I am enthused to see the canon writeups.

 

I am behind the project to bring Merry Andrew (Fine Just Merry Andrew if not the rest of CLOWN), VOICE, DEATHSTROKE and the gang into the 5th ED. VOICE in particular is SO amazing it hurts. Dr. Photon with a sideorder of Goshawk please.

 

Hawksmoor

 

While I wouldn't want to see CLOWN back on a regular basis, I think they'd make great backup in a one shot adventure involving Foxbat and the like. That way, their gimmick doesn't get old and so forth from overuse. Some CLOWN members are perfect for addind just a touch of credible threat to Foxbat(like Tag for instance).

 

Rob

[TheEmerged]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

Remember, I'm suggesting publishing them in non-canon form. So by definition you wouldn't be seeing them on a regular basis.

[Kevin]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

CLOWN was always entertaining for our group when things had gotten too dark or just too serious.

 

But, while requiring a major re-tooling, I could easily see a way to bring CLOWN into the Champions Universe.

 

Because we play a game with superheroes, there is naturally a focus on metahumans being either heros or villains.

 

Now and again there is an NPC superpowered being who is neither, just fitting in and living his/her life in the Champions Universe.

 

But CLOWN could easily fit into the Champions Universe as a group of bored metahumans not compelled to be heroes or villains but not content to be regular folks either.

 

Sort of a group of super-powered performance artists whose next big prank has to top the one before so they can one-up their compatriots and deal with the ennui of being soooo powerful yet neither heroes, villains, or the person next door.

 

CLOWN could definitely have political overtones, economic overtones, etc. Think of them as opinionated fringe folks with odd senses of humor, bored with time on their hands, and the metahuman abilities to wreak a lot of havok.

 

I miss them.

[The Vanguard]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

I still say and think with a little work CLOWN could work for 5th Champions, The Team members like all other 4th version Hero and Villians would have to be reworked to match the current Champion world and timeline.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

I still say and think with a little work CLOWN could work for 5th Champions' date=' The Team members like all other 4th version Hero and Villians would have to be reworked to match the current Champion world and timeline.[/quote']

 

 

The group was rather large if I remember correctly. I'd most likely choose a few of the better ones for translation. Which members is open to debate. I'd probably put Tag at the top of my list, but to each their own.

 

Rob

[The Vanguard]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

Well if I was working the official CLOWN source book for Champion 5th I would rewrite the background and retool some of the characters, and create some new ones as well.

[TheEmerged]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

Well if I was working the official CLOWN source book for Champion 5th I would rewrite the background and retool some of the characters' date=' and create some new ones as well.[/quote']

 

You mean like the Pun-isher and the MasterMime?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

You mean like the Pun-isher and the MasterMime?

 

Bad! Bad! Puns are bad!

 

Hawksmoor

-searches for reputation button

[The Vanguard]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

Well I hate to tell you this the part of CLOWN is puning, next to pulling off large scale visable jokes.

[The Vanguard]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

One more thing does Hero Games own the rights to CLOWN currently?,

[Lord Liaden]

But I digress...

 

I am behind the project to bring Merry Andrew (Fine Just Merry Andrew if not the rest of CLOWN), VOICE, DEATHSTROKE and the gang into the 5th ED. VOICE in particular is SO amazing it hurts. Dr. Photon with a sideorder of Goshawk please.

 

Hawksmoor

 

I apologize for temporarily hijacking this thread, but in case Hawksmoor and other VOICE fans were unaware of it, VOICE creator Steve "Captain Liberty" Perrin started a thread here some time back dealing with VOICE, including campaign background and a number of files updating and expanding on his work. Several of us contributed our own ideas on developing the group, and it turned into quite an interesting exercise (if I do say so myself).

 

You can find said discussion here.

[The Vanguard]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

Hey I want to official create CLOWN for Champions 5th not VOICE, if I have too I'm willing to recreate the whole gang.

[TheEmerged]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

The main issue is the rights as far as I'm concerned; I would have already posted them on my website if not for this issue.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

This is where I chime in about a submission idea I've toyed with bringing to Steve before -- one I call "Champions Orphanage". Writeups for the people/teams that Mr. Long has made clear won't be canon for the 5th Edition version of the Champions Universe like CLOWN, Terror Inc, etc. Writeups that update the character sheets AND provide ideas for how to integrate them into existing campaigns -- complete with the caveat that these characters are not canon and will in no way be supported in future products.

 

(snip)

 

Those of us that love the characters can have a standard to work with. Those that don't, won't have to worry about them. And at least in theory, Mr. Long and company make money off it.

I like that! And I think it would make money for DOJ. . .

[Klytus]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

The main problem with CLOWN (to my perception) was that there was no middle ground. People either loved them or hated them; and those who hated them... hated them. CLOWN is only fun to people watching what they do - it isn't funny to those being subjected to thm. CLOWN doesn't just annoy the characters, they make them look and feel like total and complete idiots. It is the sort of behavior that garners more buy-offs of Codes against Killing than anything else.

 

Small wonder CLOWN had such a small following.

[caris]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

The main problem with CLOWN (to my perception) was that there was no middle ground. People either loved them or hated them; and those who hated them... hated them. CLOWN is only fun to people watching what they do - it isn't funny to those being subjected to thm. CLOWN doesn't just annoy the characters, they make them look and feel like total and complete idiots. It is the sort of behavior that garners more buy-offs of Codes against Killing than anything else.

 

Small wonder CLOWN had such a small following.

 

I suspect that is one of the main problems with CLOWN. The possibility to use them to make the characters look like jokes. I like CLOWN, but I’ve only used them once because I didn’t want to do exactly what you are talking about. That time CLOWN was actually pulling a prank on the President and the Secret Service. The PCs just happened to be there at the same time. While one of the PCs did get caught in the prank. I was very careful to pick a player that I knew could handle that particular joke on his PC.

 

Having said that, I would point out that it is really no different than having any collection of competent antagonist opponents. No one like to loose all the time either. So the trick with CLOWN is to avoid having CLOWN’s jokes always succeed on the PCs. The PCs should get a chance to turn the tables on CLOWN, or simply spoil the joke.

[Theron]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

Back before the Cybergames days, I worked on editorial and layouts for a Hero Plus update of CLOWN. Without being unduly cruel to the manuscript (by Stan West, author of the previous two versions), it wasn't pretty, and largely operated on a "more is more" principle. It really didn't cover new ground, just upped the power level of the original team, adding about a gazillion second and third stringers, an entire fleet of AI vehicles, and...well, that's about it.

 

Ultimately, I ran out of steam and bowed out of the project, and as I understand it, Stan contacted Bruce and pulled the plug on it the next day. Any rights to CLOWN should have reverted to Stan some years ago, and I have no idea what he's doing writing-wise, if anything these days.

[Theron]

Re: CLOWN for 5th Champions

 

I like that! And I think it would make money for DOJ. . .

 

Less than you might think. Most of those characters were produced back in the day when HERO/ICE hired lots of freelancers and the contracts allowed for properties to revert to the creator after a certain number of years. I remember Aaron Allston being a bit annoyed by the HERO/ICE version of Champions Universe because it mentioned Strike Force characters that had reverted to him.

 

So it's not as simple as looking up the old characters and updating their stats and backgrounds. A lot would involve tracking down creators, getting their permission, and paying for the privilege.