Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

[Hyper-Man]

Do you allow Find Weakness in your games that already use Hit Locations?

 

Steve recently stated that there are no rules conflicts with using them together but I always viewed Find Weakness as a fast shortcut for simulating hit location rules in games where most characters would not bother to make called shots like Champions. Mixing both together seems like double dipping. I know there are probably other FX like magic combat in FH that could explain the ability in a game that uses hit location rules but AP would fit just as well in most of those. For HTH unarmed or with weapons HTH or Ranged, it just does not seem right to me.

 

Appologies if there is an older thread that already dealt with this but I could not find one.

 

Thoughts welcome.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

The way I've always seen it, FW doesn't determine/interacting with HL at all. Its used to find those locations in a target's defense that are most vulnerable, or determine the proper way of striking the target to cause more damage.

 

It get's a little funky if you are using sectional defenses though. Typically, if a target is using some kind of layered or sectional armor, I'll have the character with FW make the roll versus one part (usually the most visible/exterior) and have it apply only to that (I'll also have him buy FW with a -1/4 to -1/2 Limitation to represent this, but I don't do much sectional armor stuff).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

The way I've always seen it, FW doesn't determine/interacting with HL at all. Its used to find those locations in a target's defense that are most vulnerable, or determine the proper way of striking the target to cause more damage.

 

It get's a little funky if you are using sectional defenses though. Typically, if a target is using some kind of layered or sectional armor, I'll have the character with FW make the roll versus one part (usually the most visible/exterior) and have it apply only to that (I'll also have him buy FW with a -1/4 to -1/2 Limitation to represent this, but I don't do much sectional armor stuff).

What type of setting was this game?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

What type of setting was this game?

My Defenders Universe (I believe you've read the description, note to self: post world desc on web site), which is comperable to the Champions Universe.

 

The game had different design guidelines though. It's set up with more of a Dark Champions feel. Characters are "normals" possibly with unusual abilities, but nothing that would compete with your average superhuman. Hit locations, normal pushing and knockdown are used, and characters pay for equipment.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I use them both in my current NeoChampions campaign ("Not exactly the Champions Universe"). But in fairness, we mostly use Hit Loc as a replacement for the Stun Mod roll since it gives a better curve IMO.

 

In my mind, Find Weakness (henceforth FWeak, to avoid confusion with ForceWall) doesn't *only* represent finding a weak spot in the armor or defenses -- it represents finding a way to do more damage or get more damage through the defenses than the DC vs DEF would otherwise allow. Those can be the same but not always.

[That Masked Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

How about using a house rule that you can only use Find Weakness when targetting a specific location, to find the weak point within that location? You could use that in any game that uses hit locations. In games that don't use hit locations, Find Weakness would work normally without this modification.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I dunno. I've always found it somewhat incompatible, the notion that first, you can target someone so precisely that he only has 1/2, 1/4 or even less of their defenses and the notion that you are so imprecise, you might hit him in the head and might hit him in the toe on the same roll...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I use them both in my current NeoChampions campaign ("Not exactly the Champions Universe"). But in fairness, we mostly use Hit Loc as a replacement for the Stun Mod roll since it gives a better curve IMO.

 

In my mind, Find Weakness (henceforth FWeak, to avoid confusion with ForceWall) doesn't *only* represent finding a weak spot in the armor or defenses -- it represents finding a way to do more damage or get more damage through the defenses than the DC vs DEF would otherwise allow. Those can be the same but not always.

But what you describe is easily explained by existing Armor Piercing rules.

 

All of the basic examples of Find Weakness in FREd describe normal attacks like Martial Arts, swords, bows, etc... All seem to be describing highly accurate targeting of where the attacks hit the target to get more damage through the defenses.

 

I guess what I am really asking is what special effect would explain the effectiveness of a character making his Find Weakness roll vs. a target with sectional defefenses that do not cover hands, head or feet. He hits and then makes a location roll for the feet doing 1/2 damage? Conversly, say the attacker misses his Find Weakness roll, hits the target and makes the location roll for the head and does x2 damage?

 

Am I instead describing the exceptions that everyone has to make a house rule to work around these obvious inconsistencies?

[TheEmerged]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Try this one -- "Hey, this guy plants his right foot before going for an uppercut; I can use that to find an opening..."

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Try this one -- "Hey' date=' this guy plants his right foot before going for an uppercut; I can use that to find an opening..."[/quote']

But isn't that describing a use of the Analyze Style skill as described in FREd and UMA? Successful Analyze skill rolls give bonuses to OCV or DCV which in turn supports the Hit location argument far better than the Find Weakness one.

 

What I am asking for is an effect in a game that uses Hit Locations that demands the use of Find Weakness instead of Armor Piercing and I have not seen one yet.

[Vondy]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I only use hit locations for called shots - so yeah, I allow it. The location affects the damage done to the target after defenses, the find weakness affects the defenses protecting the location.

[That Masked Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I think Find Weakness best represents a sort of training in analyzing the structure of an opponents armor. The hit location chart is too broad and general to handle well placed blows to weak points. Style analysis doesn't cover this either since it is not dependent on the fighting style of the defender, but on the physical structure and coverage of his armor. There are usually several ways to buy any effect, but Find Weakness seems less of a kludge than buying armor piercing requires a skill roll.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Also realize the Hit Location Chart is just a mechanic to describe where you hit. Who's to say your character wasn't aiming for that specific location, because it was the most vulnerable/effective at the time (stress at the time). The modifiers are there for if you, the player, want to hit a specific location. Your character could have perfect aim and only hits where he intends to.

[Zanthis]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

You can also view FWeak as the ability to "tune" your attack to work better against your target's defenses. Rather than finding the weak spot in the target's armor, you find the overall weakness in the structure of that armor. And while AP does do something similar, it should be used when this ability is part of the attack. FWeak should be used when this ability is one the character can apply to more than one type of attack.

 

If you want a Star Trek analogy (please don't shot me!) think changing phaser settings to better penetrate shields. Sure, you could buy phasers as a MP with a non-AP and an AP version, but it might make more sense to give the computer FWeak, possibly with a Skill Roll required by the weapon's officer.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

You can also view FWeak as the ability to "tune" your attack to work better against your target's defenses. Rather than finding the weak spot in the target's armor, you find the overall weakness in the structure of that armor. And while AP does do something similar, it should be used when this ability is part of the attack. FWeak should be used when this ability is one the character can apply to more than one type of attack.

 

If you want a Star Trek analogy (please don't shot me!) think changing phaser settings to better penetrate shields. Sure, you could buy phasers as a MP with a non-AP and an AP version, but it might make more sense to give the computer FWeak, possibly with a Skill Roll required by the weapon's officer.

...just kidding!

 

This is good analogy except it still does not handle sectional defenses without adding a house rule for it.

 

I started this thread because it seems like there is a definite clash of detail in the existing rules when making the change from Super-Heroic to just Heroic level besides just characteristic maximums and not paying for equipment. Heroic level games that allow a little bit of everything (realistic combat with Magic and/or Psi) are probably the most 'house rule' intensive to setup. They are also the games where sectional armor is most common. And out of all the arguments so far I have still not seen one that would explain the use of Find Weakness vs. a target with sectional defenses without also using called shot rules which just makes Find Weakness a special effect of called shots then.

 

I appologize if I sound like a troll on this subject because that is not my intent. I am just trying to identify the intent of the original rules designers when they included Find Weakness. Hit locations were a later add on, not part of the orignal rules set like Find Weakness.

[Blue]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

It's not been an issue. Ironically, the guy who regularly does called shots cannot make a Find Weakness roll to save his skin. It gets pretty funny after a while (except to him).

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Generally Hit Locations and Sectional Defenses are commonly used in normal or heroic campaigns while Find Weakness is a power and is generally used only in superheroic campaigns. Seeing that players are not normally allowed to buy powers in non-superheroic campaigns unless the GM allows.

 

I guess in a normal or heroic campaign, one could use the Find Weakness power to build a material structure scanning device that can find flaws in substances. Something like Geordi's Visor (please don't shoot me either!) on Star Trek. In this case, I do not see any problem with the power being used in conjunction with the Hit Location and Sectional Defense rules.

 

 

 

.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

...In this case' date=' I do not see any problem with the power being used in conjunction with the Hit Location and Sectional Defense rules.[/quote']

Do you mean you do not see a problem with a character using Find Weakness versus a target with sectional defenses while at the same time NOT making a called shot?!?

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Do you mean you do not see a problem with a character using Find Weakness versus a target with sectional defenses while at the same time NOT making a called shot?!?

 

 

You don't need to make a called shot to Find Weakness on the target but I would roll on the Hit Location table to determine the location of the weakness on the target. It a normal or heroic campaign, I would require a called shot to that hit that location for every attack if they wanted to take advantage of this weakness. This may bit a bit too restrictive and limiting for some campaigns. On the other hand, seeing that the player already rolled on the Hit Location Table and has determined the location of the weakness, I guess the GM could rule that the attacker can make called shots to this location without penalties. This would make head hits devastating. As a GM, I would just steer away from using this power in a non-superheroic campaign. Why create headaches when you don't need to?

 

 

.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

You don't need to make a called shot to Find Weakness on the target but I would roll on the Hit Location table to determine the location of the weakness on the target. It a normal or heroic campaign, I would require a called shot to that hit that location for every attack if they wanted to take advantage of this weakness. This may bit a bit too restrictive and limiting for some campaigns. On the other hand, seeing that the player already rolled on the Hit Location Table and has determined the location of the weakness, I guess the GM could rule that the attacker can make called shots to this location without penalties. This would make head hits devastating. As a GM, I would just steer away from using this power in a non-superheroic campaign. Why create headaches when you don't need to?

 

 

.

So basically you are conceding that Find Weakness defers to the Hit location mechanic. The Heroic rules example is just one. What about a Dark Champions game that allows powers but uses gritty detail like Hit location rules? Sectional defenses would probably be commonplace in this setting as well. From what you describe, I can't use Find Weakness without using some type of targeting as well.

 

And all of this is a result of any gameplay that includes Hit location and sectional defenses.

 

This seems to support my working theory that *Find Weakness was a stop-gap rule meant to simulate Hit location rules before they were created and therefore using both together is double dipping.

 

I can't verify right now but I am willing to bet that Find Weakness qualifies as a SuperSkill and probably the first one based on the description in whatever Champions rulebook that it first appears in.

[Zanthis]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Here's a power that modified from a spell in Warhammer that would use the Find Weakness power as is, even against sectional armor:

 

Doom - This vile curse opens the target up to grievous damage from your attacks.

 

Tada! (do I get a cookie?)

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

This seems to support my working theory that *Find Weakness was a stop-gap rule meant to simulate Hit location rules before they were created and therefore using both together is double dipping.

 

 

Find Weakness is a Power and using special effects can represent many things including Hit Locations. It is not a stop-gap measure to simulate Hit Locations but as a special effect of the Find Weakness Power it could be defined as such. Find Weakness could be to reproduce other effects as well. Imagination is the only limit.

 

If you don't like the power (Find Weakness) in your game, built it as some sort of Talent, for example:

 

Find Weakness Talent: Penalty Skill Levels: +8 vs. Hit Location modifiers with All Attacks (12 Active Points); Requires A Sight PER Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/2). Total Cost: 16 points

 

or something to its like.

[lemming]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I actually don't use Find Weakness in my games. Just don't like the skill (power, talent or whatever it is now. ).

 

Used to have quite a few characters with it, but dropping it did free up some book keeping during combats. And at high levels it's quite bad. I'd seen the 70/35/18/9/5/3/2/1 defense progression enough.

 

I did build a power for one of my martial artists which (IIRC)

+10d6, Based on skill roll, NoKnb. For every one she made her skill roll, she could add a die. Minuses if actual LoW existed. Minuses for other things as well. Getting the full 10d6 was pretty hard.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Here's a power that modified from a spell in Warhammer that would use the Find Weakness power as is, even against sectional armor:

 

Doom - This vile curse opens the target up to grievous damage from your attacks.

 

Tada! (do I get a cookie?)

I appreciate the the input.

 

I am totally unfamiliar with the combat system used by Warhammer so I am curious if it is level based like D&D/D20? And does the referenced spell allow multiple applications versus the same target? If not, it could be built using a naked armor piercing advantage instead. I raise this important point since most spell systems using skill rolls to cast spells. If the spell in question were in use you would have a huge number of different rolls to make for an attack with this effect:

• Roll to cast spell
  
• Roll for Find Weakness
  
• Roll to hit
  
• Roll hit location
  
• Roll Damage
  

Changing the spell to Armor Piercing reduces this by one. so does the suggestion of converting Find Weakness to a talent that in effect is just +8 penalty skill levels towards hit location. This in turn just supports my earlier argument.

 

Again, I have yet to hear anyone put forth a convincing special effect that would demand the use of Find Weakness instead of penalty skill levels or *Armor Piercing (even as a naked advantage) to describe that effect in a game that uses hit locations, sectional armor and powers/spells.

 

Find Weakness is NOT the same as the *Armor Piercing advantage in 2 important respects. It is not affected by hardened defenses and it only requires multiple skill rolls to get multiple halving of defenses.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Find Weakness has not and never has ever corresponded to any sort of precision targetting. (or else you would not be able to apply it to explosions or area effects)

 

Rather, it is an ability to induce a weakness in a target to damage generated by you, directly or not. (depending on how much Find Weakness you bought)

 

I mean, if you buy Find Weakness that affects all attacks and make the roll against someone who then goes fully invisible and then you drop a hand grenade or drive over them in a vehicle and it nails them at 1/2 defenses, how precise can that be?

 

Whether or not you allow Find Weakness in your game should not have anything to do with using hit location rules. Apples and oranges.