Spiderman Vs. Firelord

[ChuckB]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

OH yeah Lord Mhoram!!! in gamespeak I was thinking the same thing about the autofire punches and the penetrating punches. (perhaps popular characters get a VPP of 'save your rear-end` maneuvers and powers. Only controlled by the GM/writer)

 

I am gonna have to really track down the comic now so I can read it. Now I wish I had shelled out the bucks all those years ago to pick up that back issue. Was it ASM, WoSM or PPSS? aproximately what number or time period?

 

You're right in that it all depends on the writers. There was a story where Spidey beat the crap out of Sabre Tooth as though he were a goofy C-list villain and then less than a month later Sabre Tooth was reintroduced in X-Men (different editors, writers, etc) and was pretty much trahed Wolverine in a one-on-one fight.

 

If you had to rationalize it, you could say that the above characters have really good days and really bad days (like everyone else).

 

With Spidey's upset-factor, perhaps some people have a real difficult time dealing with Spider Man's Spider-Sense, speed and fighting style and that's why formidable opponents like Firelord and Sabre Tooth went down so quickly.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

This whole argument is pointless...

 

Given time to prepare, Batman could kick both their asses!!!

 

*Dive for cover*

Or, given time to prepare, I could kill batman like that. I don't think there is a character in comics that comes close to the unoly trimverate of hatred...

Batman, Punisher, Wolverine... If they all simply ceased to exist I would be happy, very happy.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Given time to prepare' date=' Batman could kick both their asses!!![/b']

 

Spider-Man, yes -- step one, neutralize the Spidey-Sense (and Norman Osborn invented a chemical for that), step two, make with the booby traps from hell. With large blast radii.

 

Firelord, otoh... well, not unless Step One is "Get Kyle to loan me his Green Lantern ring" and Step Two is "Ask Courtney to loan me the Cosmic Rod..." -- IOW, no way in any even remotely plausible hell.

[Pegasus]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Or, given time to prepare, I could kill batman like that. I don't think there is a character in comics that comes close to the unoly trimverate of hatred...

Batman, Punisher, Wolverine... If they all simply ceased to exist I would be happy, very happy.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you on the Punisher. Always hated him. I haven't liked Wolvy in almost 15 years, but I used to like him, and I'd like to think he can still be saved.

 

Batman, however, even with his uber godlike status, has to stick around for one reason: he has the greatest rogues gallery in all of DC*. But his humanity seems long gone. I think he can still be saved. Just eliminate 53 of his monthly books...

 

*Possibly the best ever, though Spidey makes a strong argument.

[Blue]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Or, given time to prepare, I could kill batman like that. I don't think there is a character in comics that comes close to the unoly trimverate of hatred...

Batman, Punisher, Wolverine... If they all simply ceased to exist I would be happy, very happy.

Careful, this is how many of their enemies got started!

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

I liked the Punisher when he was written well, and in small doses.

 

I loved Wolverine for years, until my long romance with the X-Men came to an end around issues 190-205. But I liked Jackman's portryal in the films.

 

Batman remains a favorite when he's written well. If nothing else, the animated series and his subsequent DCAU appearances (even if he's sometimes written as Batgod in JL) seals the deal for me.

 

And I remain unconvinced that Spidey has any legitimate chance against Firelord as I would be in a Spidey/Superman fight without any of Supes' weaknesses in play (or 250 pt. Seeker vs. Firewing :-)). A herald of Galactus is simply in a whole different league. Spider-Man can use his speed, senses, and Firelord's own arrogance to play with him for a bit, but the power cosmic is simply too versatile. Captain America, on the other hand... :-)

 

KK

[Enforcer84]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

...Could beat Firelord?

[Pegasus]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

...Could beat Firelord?

 

No, could beat Batman! Haven't you been paying attention?

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Several threads -- some of them not originally intended for such purpose -- hath been devoted to "Captain America vs. Batman".

 

My own vote is that:

 

a) stripped to the waist on the sands of the Coliseum, empty hands, it's a flip a coin -- on both sides we have skill and will... on the one side we have greater mental flexibility and esoteric ninja knowledge, and balancing that on the other side we have superior agility and endurance.

 

... well, actually, given recent things on the endurance edge, I'd say Cap takes better than even, but it's by no means certain.

 

in a normal fight, utility belt vs. shield, the belt gives very good odds

 

c) in a 'shadow war' with prep time, ambushes, and stalking each other across the breadth of the city as allowable tactics, Cap had better write his effing will.

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

c) in a 'shadow war' with prep time, ambushes, and stalking each other across the breadth of the city as allowable tactics, Cap had better write his effing will.

 

Right cause nobody's EVER done that to Cap before. Well except Red Skull, Baron Zemo, HYDRA, AIM and every other villain he's ever fought ever. Seriously, Captain America has thwarted cosmic powered beings who've had prep time on him [Red Skull with the cosmic cube anyone?] and he's still thwarted them. If Bats trys to get all supervillain on Cap, he's gonna end up like every other supervillain Cap's fought, unconcious and beaten.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Twilight, this prseumes that Batman is of equal brains and ability to Cap's Rogue's Gallery.

 

Which is wrong. He blows them all away. The only two villains in the MU who are smarter and better than Batman are Victor von Doom and Thanos. The Red Skull can't even *hope* to compete mentally.

 

And those Cosmic Cube victories of Caps are... well, let's just say the Skull is really, really, really, *REALLY* stupid about holding onto those things. You give me a Cosmic Cube and I guarantee that Cap will never have a hope in hell of coming anywhere near me.

 

(For one thing, step one is where I do hideous things to his motor nervous system.)

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Twilight, this prseumes that Batman is of equal brains and ability to Cap's Rogue's Gallery.

 

Which is wrong. He blows them all away. The only two villains in the MU who are smarter and better than Batman are Victor von Doom and Thanos. The Red Skull can't even *hope* to compete mentally.

 

And where's your proof to back this up? Being a fan of Batman is all well and good but it's hardly evidence to prove your statement. Batman's a good detective yes but everytime he's faced a really skilled martial artist [like Shiva, Bronze Tiger or Richard Dragon] it usually ends up a tie or with Batman loosing. Likewise, when Batman fought DC's closest equivalent to Cap [Deathstroke] Batman lost. Cap is both a highly trained soldier AND a really skilled martial artist, which would seem to give him the advantage in this fight.

 

As for the prep time and what not. Puh-lease, villains have been doing this to Cap since World War 2. He's got it figured out by now.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Most of those "really good martial artists" would hand Cap his ass.

 

And his martial arts skills are not connected with his General Devious Bastardry skills ( see also: JLA, Morrison run, Waid run ). In an extended shadow war, Cap has to deal with somebody that can basically sneak anywhere he wants, acquire any information he wants, and plan to most dangerous and effective ambushes he wants, more or less at will, with no ability on Cap's part to find or interfere.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> And where's your proof to back this up?

 

Oh, I don't know, pretty much every JLA issue where Bats hauls out the "Watch me go ten steps ahead of the villain without even sweating" strategic mojo? Compare the level of intellect and forethought displayed to the average Skull Master Plan, and ol' Johann is left sucking dust.

 

> Being a fan of Batman is all well and good but it's hardly evidence to prove

> your statement. Batman's a good detective yes but everytime he's faced a

> really skilled martial artist [like Shiva, Bronze Tiger or Richard Dragon]

 

Shiva has never beaten Batman, and Batman has never beaten Shiva. The Bronze Tiger's one defeat of Batman is Pre-Crisis /and/ pre Zero-Hour, and vanished several continuity reboots ago. And to the best of my knowledge, Batman and Richard Dragon have never fought.

 

Oh, BTW, a couple months ago in BATGIRL #50, Bruce held Cassandra "Batgirl" Cain to a standstill for ten minutes flat... and she *HAS* defeated Lady Shiva. Bruce is back on the top of the challenge ladder, it seems.

 

> it usually ends up a tie or with Batman loosing. Likewise, when Batman

> fought DC's closest equivalent to Cap [Deathstroke] Batman lost.

 

Umm, Deathstroke is actually more like Ultimate Cap than regular Cap. With the healing factor of Wolverine tossed in in addition.

 

[snip]

> As for the prep time and what not. Puh-lease, villains have been doing this

> to Cap since World War 2.

 

Yup. Villains who are all lots dumber and less tricky than Batman is. Which is my point.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

I think that Batman vs. Cap arguments are the modern day equivalent of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" debates. This one will go on until the end of time without a satisfying resolution.

 

Though I can't agree about *everyone* in Cap's Rogue's Gallery being second rate. By developing the "why fight fair?" strategy against the Avengers in "Siege on Avengers Mansion" (years befoe Bane pulled the same trick) and the concept behind the Thunderbolt deception, Baron Zemo's at least as cunning as anyone in Bats' Rogues Gallery. There's a lot to be said fo old-fashioned practicality. :-)

 

Scott Bennie

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Zemo, in his more clever moments, is actually fairly worthy.

 

But even his best feats are still lesser than some of the Batman classics.

 

"... PROFESSOR STEPHEN HAWKING!!!" from "JLA: World War III" in particular.

 

I mean, seriously. Who else but Batman is paranoid enough to bug an OIF captured from a villain months ago, in the expectation that he *might* steal it back from your trophy room and put it on again? And yet good enough to make it happen anyway?

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Hold on. Unless Deathstroke got a severe power down, Cap is nowhere near his status. Deathstroke is regularly fully capable of dealing with six or so superpowered enemies at one time, some of them with very high SPD scores (Robin /Kid Flash). Cap is enhanced, but Deathstroke, at least the way I remember it, was bordering on super-speed in the reflexes department. If Cap has a SPD of 6 or 7, Deathstroke has about an 8 or a 9, maybe even 10. Deathstroke does more damage because he uses a lot of killing attacks, probably combined with Find Weakness or Armor Piercing. The shiled would help a lot, but Deathstroke would find a way to neutralize it. Cap is about dead even with Batman, but Deathstroke is a team fighting master villian.

 

Batman could take Spidey, with planning. Cap could take Spidey with the right tactics. But both of those fights could go the other way as well. Spidey probably should not have beat Firelord, but I like the "any given Sunday" line someone used earlier.

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Thank you everybody for reminding me why I have a generally low tolerance for Batman lately and why I absolutely CAN'T STAND Waid's run on JLA. Frankly this double standard makes me sick. Spiderman does something cool to be an uber-tough villain in a comic and you all fall all over yourselves, most of you anyway, to declare it BS and whatnot. Batman does even more impossible stuff and it's perfectly alright.

 

As for me, I'm sticking with my position. Prep time means absolutely squat because every single superhero worth their salt has been prepared for it by every villain they've faced ever.

 

Sometimes I really CAN'T STAND Batman.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Wow, so you can't stand Batman because he's smarter than the average supervillain and makes better use of his opportunities.

 

... that's not really a sin. Really.

 

As to comparing the idea of Spidey defeating Firelord relating in any way to the Red Skull's historic dumbass moves with Cosmic Cubes...

 

... I mean, seriously. You hold omnipotence in the palm of your hand and you let somebody knock it out of your grasp? You just aren't *trying*.

 

If I was playing in a Champions game and the DM let me defeat a villain the same way that Cap's defeated some of these situations, I'd bitch to the DM. It's no fun if the villain isn't using his brain.

 

If I beat somebody in a battle of wits, I want the satisfaction of knowing that I defeated somebody who was actually *ARMED*.

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Wow, so you can't stand Batman because he's smarter than the average supervillain and makes better use of his opportunities.

 

... that's not really a sin. Really.

 

As to comparing the idea of Spidey defeating Firelord relating in any way to the Red Skull's historic dumbass moves with Cosmic Cubes...

 

... I mean, seriously. You hold omnipotence in the palm of your hand and you let somebody knock it out of your grasp? You just aren't *trying*.

 

No, I can't stand Batman cause his mention in threads generally tends to lead to arguements like the ones we have, and anyways it's kinda erroneous to say that I can't stand Batman full stop. When Batman's written well, like he is in his animated series for example, then he's one of my favourite characters. However when he busts out the whole Bat God bit, then I absolutely can't stand him.

 

Oh and I was comparing the idea of Spidey beating Firelord to stuff like Batman beating up multiple White Martians and such. FYI.

 

Also, while SOME Batman fans can drive me to distraction with arguements like these [which is probably why I shouldn't get into them but that's a WHOLE different story] that is no way meant as a slam on you or any other poster on this board.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> However when he busts out the whole Bat God bit, then I absolutely can't

> stand him.

 

So my statement stands. Because "Bat God" = "smarter than the average supervillain and makes better uses of his opportunities".

 

> Oh and I was comparing the idea of Spidey beating Firelord to stuff like

> Batman beating up multiple White Martians and such. FYI.

 

Then your comparision is still totally off base. Batman beat the Pale Martians by using fire. Since fire hits Martians the same way that Kryptonite hits Superman, only faster...?

 

But Firelord doesn't have any Kryptonite weakness, that's the problem.

[McCoy]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Twilight, this prseumes that Batman is of equal brains and ability to Cap's Rogue's Gallery.

 

Which is wrong. He blows them all away. The only two villains in the MU who are smarter and better than Batman are Victor von Doom and Thanos. The Red Skull can't even *hope* to compete mentally.

 

And those Cosmic Cube victories of Caps are... well, let's just say the Skull is really, really, really, *REALLY* stupid about holding onto those things. You give me a Cosmic Cube and I guarantee that Cap will never have a hope in hell of coming anywhere near me.

 

(For one thing, step one is where I do hideous things to his motor nervous system.)

And that is where you make your mistake. Step One is re-arrange reality so that your enemy never existed, no one, including you, remembers that he ever did exist, yet events still unfolded so that you are alive, healthy, and holding the Cosmic Cube.

 

Step Two is buying off the focus limitation, so the power of the Cosmic Cube is Inherent to you.

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

So my statement stands. Because "Bat God" = "smarter than the average supervillain and makes better uses of his opportunities".

 

No, because Bat God generally equals many supervillains acting quite stupid, despite whatever actual mental faculties they might have. The White Martians for example, would've just figured out where Batman was hiding telepathically then torn him apart before he could do anything.

 

 

Then your comparision is still totally off base. Batman beat the Pale Martians by using fire. Since fire hits Martians the same way that Kryptonite hits Superman, only faster...?

 

But Firelord doesn't have any Kryptonite weakness, that's the problem.

 

Whatever. I can see we're never going to agree on that particular point. Let's just agree to disagree, ok?

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> And that is where you make your mistake. Step One is re-arrange reality so

> that your enemy never existed, no one, including you, remembers that he ever

> did exist, yet events still unfolded so that you are alive, healthy, and holding

> the Cosmic Cube.

 

Ah. I was role-playing like I still had the Red Skull's Sadist Psych Lim.

 

i.e. -- this guy is my arch-enemy, and I want to see him hurt.

 

... I just don't need to see him hurt while he still has use of his limbs. All that Great American Willpower isn't going to worry me if he's a quadriplegic in an isolation chamber. On Titan.

 

> Step Two is buying off the focus limitation, so the power of the Cosmic

> Cube is Inherent to you.

 

Which is entirely possible to do strictly following Marvel canon. Step one, mutate your genes to where you have the power of the Super-Adaptoid. Step two, "adapt" the power of the Cosmic Cube, which the Super-Adaptoid actually did in an AVENGERS storyline.(*)

 

Actually, I suppose Step One would be temporarily stoping time in my local area so I had a chance to take care of Step Two, making the Cube internal and buying off that nasty OAF limitation completely.

 

Step Three then involves jacking Cap into the Matrix, while at the same time rendering his physical body absoltuely incapable of doing anything ever again.

 

Step Four... well, remember what Emperor Joker did to Batman? Something like that.

 

.. or, if I don't have to role-play any personal stake in the equation, just do a Divis Mal and bamf the heck off to find my own universe to play in.

 

 

 

 

(*) If you're wondering how Cap beat /those/ odds, the answer is "The Super-Adaptoid has a few gaping Psych Lims the size of Jupiter." /And/ the writer was on his side.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> No, because Bat God generally equals many supervillains acting quite

> stupid, despite whatever actual mental faculties they might have. The

> White Martians for example, would've just figured out where Batman was

> hiding telepathically then torn him apart before he could do anything.

 

In the event mentioned, they found him quite rapidly enough anyway.

 

"Batman? I know you're here, Batman. I can smell your pheromones. I can see through walls. Don't waste our time." -- A-Mortal, in JLA #3

 

And remember, this was before they knew him as anything other than a normal human. They were not afraid of him. At that time, they had absolutely no reason to be. I mean, *WE* know he's Batman, but *they* only knew that he was one more weak, helpless talking monkey on a planet full of six billion of 'em.

 

And they didn't know that Batman had already found out they were Martians. Remember, they were in disguise.

 

"Batman? Don't be ridiculous. What can a pathetic, fragile creature like Batman do to us?" -- Protex, JLA #3

 

Remember, we're talking about beings that can slugfest Superman here. They're not going to be worried about going up against a normal human being unless they *KNOW* he's got a flamethrower(*)... which they didn't, at that time.

 

And you might remember that the *second* time the Pale Martians fought Batman, they stood way the heck back, used their blaster vision, and pounded his ass flat in less than 30 seconds. They had *learned* from their prior error.

 

They were not, contrary to your claims, stupid.

 

Edit -- and there is a difference between 'not using their brains' and 'not acting with prophetic foreknowledge that could only have come from the other side of the fourth wall'.

 

 

 

(*) I mean, when was the last time we saw Superman take any real precautions vs. a normal human opponent, unless he *KNEW* the guy had a pocket full of Kryptonite? And Supes isn't stupid either. He's just able to walk through nukes and toss mountains, and as such generally doesn't waste too many synapses worrying about kung-fu guys in funky costumes.