Spiderman Vs. Firelord

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> No, because Bat God generally equals many supervillains acting quite

> stupid, despite whatever actual mental faculties they might have. The

> White Martians for example, would've just figured out where Batman was

> hiding telepathically then torn him apart before he could do anything.

 

In the event mentioned, they found him quite rapidly enough anyway.

 

"Batman? I know you're here, Batman. I can smell your pheromones. I can see through walls. Don't waste our time." -- A-Mortal, in JLA #3

 

And remember, this was before they knew him as anything other than a normal human. They were not afraid of him. At that time, they had absolutely no reason to be. I mean, *WE* know he's Batman, but *they* only knew that he was one more weak, helpless talking monkey on a planet full of six billion of 'em.

 

And they didn't know that Batman had already found out they were Martians. Remember, they were in disguise.

 

"Batman? Don't be ridiculous. What can a pathetic, fragile creature like Batman do to us?" -- Protex, JLA #3

 

Remember, we're talking about beings that can slugfest Superman here. They're not going to be worried about going up against a normal human being unless they *KNOW* he's got a flamethrower(*)... which they didn't, at that time.

 

And you might remember that the *second* time the Pale Martians fought Batman, they stood way the heck back, used their blaster vision, and pounded his ass flat in less than 30 seconds. They had *learned* from their prior error.

 

They were not, contrary to your claims, stupid.

 

Edit -- and there is a difference between 'not using their brains' and 'not acting with prophetic foreknowledge that could only have come from the other side of the fourth wall'.

 

Yes, they were stupid. Since they seem to have done thier homework on the JLA and it's members, the would have known that Batman was a very good detective and thus could figure out they were Martians. They would've known that despite being merely human that he was a threat. Anyway, if they were searching for him in the first place why WOULDN'T they use thier telepathy since that would make the search simple?

 

Very stupid.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Yurrrgh. Debating who Batman can beat and who he can't makes me ill. His competence fluctuates drastically, as different writers try to challenge him both solo and as part of the most powerful team in comics.

 

Against criminals, Batman is as smart and strong as he needs to be to win against that specific criminal, and no smarter.

 

Alongside or against his teammates, he is as smart as a human could possibly be and probably smarter still, because that is how his presence beside the strongest hero ever, the fastest hero ever, and the most powerful weapon in the universe is justified. He has a direct line to the writer. His strength and skill are virtually irrelevant.

 

Against independent heroes? Who knows?

[proditor]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

A late addition but, yes Deathstroke is Cap on roids. Or as someone stated very accurately, Ultimate Cap with Logan's healing factor. Pick up Identidy crisis where he is levelling several square city blocks while fighting alongside Dr. Light against Hawkman, Green Lantern (Kyle), Flash (Wally), Green Arrow, Black Canary, Zatanna, Atom and Elongated Man. I love Captain America, but standard continuity Cap is just flat out not in that league.

Ultimate Cap however....

 

"Sorry about that blood on your face Banner."

"What blood do you..*SMACK*"

"That blood."

 

Plus, Ultimate Cap fights a lot dirtier....The recent "use the Hulk against the skrulls" issue had me crying with laughter.

[Pegasus]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Beware! My derail-fu is mighty!

 

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Yes, they were stupid. Since they seem to have done thier homework on the

> JLA and it's members,

 

Actually, their homework pretty much ended at Superman and J'onn and Diana -- the only three people on the team physically capable of going toe-to-toe with a Martian.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> No, because Bat God generally equals many supervillains acting quite

> stupid, despite whatever actual mental faculties they might have. The

> White Martians for example, would've just figured out where Batman was

> hiding telepathically then torn him apart before he could do anything.

 

In the event mentioned, they found him quite rapidly enough anyway.

 

"Batman? I know you're here, Batman. I can smell your pheromones. I can see through walls. Don't waste our time." -- A-Mortal, in JLA #3

 

And remember, this was before they knew him as anything other than a normal human. They were not afraid of him. At that time, they had absolutely no reason to be. I mean, *WE* know he's Batman, but *they* only knew that he was one more weak, helpless talking monkey on a planet full of six billion of 'em.

 

And they didn't know that Batman had already found out they were Martians. Remember, they were in disguise.

 

"Batman? Don't be ridiculous. What can a pathetic, fragile creature like Batman do to us?" -- Protex, JLA #3

 

Remember, we're talking about beings that can slugfest Superman here. They're not going to be worried about going up against a normal human being unless they *KNOW* he's got a flamethrower(*)... which they didn't, at that time.

 

hmmm...so let's see if I've got this straight...

 

When highly powered aliens are taken out by "ordinary human Batman" because they're overconfident due to their vast powers and his being an "ineffectual human" in their eyes, that's good writing.

 

When a single highly powered alien is taken out by "enhanced human Spidey" because he's both more overconfident (he won't, for example, disguise who he is) and burdened with being Honorable as well, and thus doesn't use smart tactics and can't get over the fact that Spidey is just an "ineffectual human", that's bad writing.

 

Thanks for clearing that up!

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

... you know, nobody on the pro-Bat side claims the first Pale Martian fight as one of Batman's greatest intellectual hits for precisely that reason. (It's one of his best feats to read about, sure -- the look on their faces alone is priceless. But strategy-wise, it was only a moderate.)

 

I mean, hell, *Clark* deduced they were Martians too -- independently -- and that right there benchmarks the mystery as one of only moderate difficulty, as what Batman considers *maximum* difficulty is something that Superman can't hope to figure out w/o Cliff's Notes.

 

OTOH, something like he did in JLA / INCARNATIONS #3 -- where he walks into a fight between the Year One JLA and a rampaging extradimensional mosnter, studies the situation calmly for <30 seconds, and then comes up with a better plan than the entire JLA has figured out so far -- despite the fact that he'd never actually fought alongside them before and was working only from what he knew and observed -- *that's* an intellectual feat.

 

(And the plan worked, btw.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

... you know, nobody on the pro-Bat side claims the first Pale Martian fight as one of Batman's greatest intellectual hits for precisely that reason. (It's one of his best feats to read about, sure -- the look on their faces alone is priceless. But strategy-wise, it was only a moderate.)

 

I mean, hell, *Clark* deduced they were Martians too -- independently -- and that right there benchmarks the mystery as one of only moderate difficulty, as what Batman considers *maximum* difficulty is something that Superman can't hope to figure out w/o Cliff's Notes.

 

OTOH, something like he did in JLA / INCARNATIONS #3 -- where he walks into a fight between the Year One JLA and a rampaging extradimensional mosnter, studies the situation calmly for <30 seconds, and then comes up with a better plan than the entire JLA has figured out so far -- despite the fact that he'd never actually fought alongside them before and was working only from what he knew and observed -- *that's* an intellectual feat.

 

(And the plan worked, btw.)

 

Yep. Because the writers wrote it that way.

 

I wonder if Spider Man has writers...

 

[Very boring for a Supers RPG, by the way. Just roll your 31- Deduction skill and wait for the GM to explain the mystery...some things just don't cross media very well]

[GTAgamemaster]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

~jumping onto the Batman aspect of this debate~

 

Batman is going to characterized by very high intelligence and a boat load of skills right. (Those are his most potent weapons...cunning and experience!) I begin to wonder if he has eclipsed Maximum Human intelligence into the realm of superhuman intelligence?

 

Batman is a master tactician and strategist...

 

As to Chuckg's view of the Batman/Cap fight...

 

I agree a slugfest with no body armors or gadgets would definitely lean Cap's way.

 

Utility Belt Vs. Shield... it may come down to what he carries in the utility belt that day. I am aware that he has different combinations of stuff but it always seemed to me that a large majority were for defensive reasons. (Gas mask, rebreather, and the like! Most of which would serve no purpose against Cap...except when you set off one of the knockout grenades in close quarters.)

 

in a "shadow war" Bats is gonna come out on top cause thats his schtik... that is his element.

 

I have held this view of Cap forever... he has never been allowed to evolve with the ever expanding threat of the Marvel Universe. You have the resources of the Avengers and Tony Stark and yet you never seem to upgrade your capabilities. At the same time I would like to offer this... once upon a time in one of the many various Comics I read, Victor Von Doom said of Captain America that "He was one of the most dangerous men alive." That is pretty high praise from one of the scariest of Villains in any universe.

 

(I fully believe that Doom would say the same thing of Batman... because it is their indomniable will and ability to win no matter the odds that is realm of the writers and how careful planning and fate work for our favorite heroes.)

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Utility Belt Vs. Shield... it may come down to what he carries in the utility belt that day. I am aware that he has different combinations of stuff but it always seemed to me that a large majority were for defensive reasons. (Gas mask' date=' rebreather, and the like! Most of which would serve no purpose against Cap...except when you set off one of the knockout grenades in close quarters.)[/quote']

 

Well, there's the also the stuff he hauls around in case he runs into metahuman opponents -- NNDs and AVLDs of several types, Sight and Hearing Group Flash foci, and in at least three instances, hand grenades powerful enough to trash cars. (Granted, the Bat-Grenades are usually saved for JLA missions, where Batman expects to meet a helluva lot more metahumans than he runs into on a normal night in Gotham.)

 

He just doesn't *use* those on the average Gotham thug because at best, they're wasteful overkill, and at worst, they're outright violations of his CvK.

 

OTOH, the last time Killer Croc tried an argument with Bruce, he got a 220+ decibel sonic AVLD right where it hurt. A lot. Bruce doesn't bother breaking his knuckles punching the guy with near-bulletproof resistant PD skin.

 

At least, not usually. Some days, the writer just doesn't bother trying.

 

Edit -- not to mention another maneuver Batman has.

 

Specifically, the one where he *lets* you get a Grab in on him...

 

... and then activates his NND Damage Shield. There's a 100,000-volt capacitor in that utility belt, wired to microfine metallic threads laced on the outside of his costume. *He's* insulated -- anybody touching him ain't.

 

It was designed as a last-ditch escape maneuver in case somebody ever got clever enough to try the "If I catch him off-guard and dogpile him with enough thugs, it doesn't matter how good his kung-fu is -- nobody moves with 1000 lbs of beef on top of him!"

 

A viable strategy. Unless your target is Bruce "Paranoid" Wayne, who deliberately rigged his costume with a defense option even for *that*.

 

 

 

As for Batman's intelligence and ability to learn multiple disciplines -- dude, I'm just waiting for the retcon where they reveal that the Wayne family tree crosses that of the original Mr. Terrific's somewhere. Because seriously, Bruce Wayne comes off as the dark mirror of Terry Sloane.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

We're talking about different Batmen here. In his own book, Batman can be troubled by lamoes like the Penguin, even normal criminals can beat him temporarily.

 

In the JLA, Batman was always portrayed as the smart one, but not head-and-shoulders above everyone else. Following Dark Knight Returns the JLA Batman became both grimmer and more competent, a competence which was probably enhanced under Grant Morrison.

 

Anyway, it's been established that Bats acknowledges Cap as the superior fighter in JLA/Avengers, which in my view is definitive.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> We're talking about different Batmen here. In his own book, Batman can be

> troubled by lamoes like the Penguin,

 

Actually, ever since the Chuck Dixon run of DETECTIVE, the Penguin hasn't come close to taking Batman in this lifetime. Heck, it was once at the point where Batman didn't even bother to go intimidate the Penguin for information, but sent Robin to do it. Alone.

 

(Granted, Robin's threats boiled down to "You do realize what happens if I have to go back to him and tell him you *didn't* cooperate, right?", but the point is, Batman sent his sidekick alone into the Penguin's sanctum with every expectation of getting him back unharmed.)

 

The Penguin hasn't been a serious physical threat to Batman since the Crisis.

 

> even normal criminals can beat him temporarily.

 

Sure -- in situations that are clearly "Sometimes, even the lamest yutz can roll a natural 3." Not on a skill issue.

 

> In the JLA, Batman was always portrayed as the smart one, but not

> head-and-shoulders above everyone else.

 

Ah, so we're defniitely talking Pre-Crisis Batman here. *nods* Thing is, he hasn't been in continuity in decades. Post-Crisis Batman, and most especially Post Zero-Hour Batman, is a whole different kettle o' fish.

 

> Following Dark Knight Returns the JLA Batman became both grimmer and

> more competent, a competence which was probably enhanced under Grant

> Morrison.

 

Notably.

 

> Anyway, it's been established that Bats acknowledges Cap as the superior

> fighter in JLA/Avengers, which in my view is definitive.

 

Actually, no.

 

"It's conceivable you could beat me, Avenger, but it would take you a very long time." -- JLA/Avengers #2

 

That word is 'could', not 'will'. Batman is acknowledging that he is facing an equal... that a straight martial arts fight between him and Cap is a thing of uncertain outcome. (Which is what *I've* been saying.)

 

That is not the same thing as acknowledging Cap's superiority, which is something Batman did not do.

 

And Batman didn't even try to use the utility belt in their session, just like Cap deliberately put down the shield. The two of them were deliberately testing each other's skills, not doing Batman-style "May the most heinous cheater win".

 

(narration) Their blows land with almost no force at first. A tap. A brush. They test. Assess. A feint. A counter. A shift. A response.

 

... and then Batman says what he says.

 

Dude, they didn't even hit each other. It was a pure old-school samurai showdown, where they judged each other from their stance and the first passage of their blades.

[Hermit]

Just an opinion

 

At the same time I would like to offer this... once upon a time in one of the many various Comics I read, Victor Von Doom said of Captain America that "He was one of the most dangerous men alive." That is pretty high praise from one of the scariest of Villains in any universe.

 

(I fully believe that Doom would say the same thing of Batman... because it is their indomniable will and ability to win no matter the odds that is realm of the writers and how careful planning and fate work for our favorite heroes.)

 

I think that's because, in a weird way, Doom is the dark mirror of such men. We're talking about the guy who beat the Beyonder not just by genius and tech, but by sheer will. Doom doesn't bow down without a fight. In that, despite the fact he was meant to be Reed's counterpart, he's really very like Batman and Captain America.

[Chuckg]

Re: Just an opinion

 

Doom *is* the dark mirror of the Bat, actually.

 

He lost both his parents in tragic ways at a very early age.

 

He's devoted his life obsessively to forgign himself into a living weapon and honing his mind and will.

 

He's fanatical, ruthless, obsessed, and does whatever it takes to win.

 

Their only differences are details of motivation and ethics. Outside of that... well, that plus the fact that Doom is by far the better scientist... they could be brothers.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Thank you everybody for reminding me why I have a generally low tolerance for Batman lately and why I absolutely CAN'T STAND Waid's run on JLA.

Sometimes I really CAN'T STAND Batman.

 

I would assume you meant Morrison. Waid took after that, and toned down the "Batgod" aspect of the character. He was actually irritated that bats figured out every plan, and in his first story arc, which involved physical laws going haywire and people and things disappearing, had the classic "parlor scene" where Bats was about to explain what was wrong and how to fix it (to flash and GL IIRC) and just as he says something like "... and what is wrong is..." and disappears, just so Bats couldn't save the day.

 

Morrison was the champion of the Batgod. Waid used it, because he didn't want to break tone from the previous writer that much.

[GTAgamemaster]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

So one more question about Bats... how many points to build him .... (Whats your gut instinct on these?)

 

Pre Crisis...?

 

Post Crisis...?

 

Post Zero Hour...?

 

(My group and I were having a debate about all of his skills, talents, contacts, resources and what not?)

 

(I am considering tossing cap into "fix the weakling" thread or maybe just ask the question... what kind of potential has been squandered. It seems that Bruce Wayne has maximized every advantage he can give himself. If new tech comes his way he uses it and he grows and adapts to the growing threats in his universe. What could Cap have become had this approach also been used for him?)

[Hermit]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

 

(I am considering tossing cap into "fix the weakling" thread or maybe just ask the question... what kind of potential has been squandered. It seems that Bruce Wayne has maximized every advantage he can give himself. If new tech comes his way he uses it and he grows and adapts to the growing threats in his universe. What could Cap have become had this approach also been used for him?)

 

 

Well, I don't agree with you myself. Just because Cap hasn't decided to rely on High Tech (though I do believe the micro chain he wears now is superior to his WW2 outfit for protection while still being light) doesn't mean the character hasn't evolved. First of all, Cap's themes are often spiritual/idealistic, thus growth in those realms is considered primary and given spotlight. His short time as Nomad before returning to becoming Captain America is one example of that. He is a man who has come to realize the difference between the American Dream and the American Govt (and even walked out on the commision more than once). This isn't to say he's been twiddling his thumbs in his off hours by any shot though.

 

He's often depicted as practicing, training, and practicing, either alone or with his fellow Avengers with as much fervor as a certain cowled fellow. His knowledge of various martial arts has certianly improved. At one time he was portrayed as a 'sock em in the jaw' type, but soon enough he was mastering many styles and incoporating them (I recall him using an Akido move to stop the violence denying Aquarius).

 

Nor is it merely hand to hand training or physical acrobatics he practices in. I recall some good natured ribbing from fellow Avengers as while they were on vacation Cap was the one reading a book on strategy in his off time. He constantly familarizes himself with Avengers records and data on threats world wide, by this time he must have at least a KS: Super Villains 21-. In his comics it's almost always "I've heard about this guy..." even if he's never seen him before, and when it's a new creation he's encountering the reader knows it's brand new (not just by the cover blurb) but by Steve's thought cloud going "... Nothing in the files on this one" or some such.

 

It's easy to count foci, but (to slip into Champs speak) skill levels and KS aren't exactly obvious. Ulitmately it boils down to the writers, but I think the good ones show that Cap hasn't exactly been sipping pina coladas and chasing the female Avengers in his off time.

 

Of course, I am a Cap fan, so color me biased if you will. YMMV

[rjcurrie]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Your analysis of Cap sounds about right, Hermit. I'm a Cap fan too and I would put him and Bats on about the same level. Let's face it, they both have PRE out the yahoo, they just use it in different ways.

[GTAgamemaster]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Hermit, I absolutely agree with everything you wrote. Cap does study and train and he is the guy who is usually keeping the Avenger Files updated. He does a lot of homework on his opponents. He has studied different martial arts and languages. He has been portrayed as being "Mr. Prepared".

 

I suppose that I find that many other Heroes and Villains alike add to their arsenals in more tangible ways. Most every hero worth his salt keeps up his KS: Super Villain research and you are right he does seem to have some knowledge of most every Villain/Hero he runs across.

 

I ran an "homage" to Captain America once under another system and have recreated the Character as an NPC in my current campaign. My take is that the Super Soldier Serum may be refined and altered over time. I also had my "CapWannabe" start using a utility belt (usually for for fairly mundane things such as wire saws, combat knives, supertech High tension wire, some knockout gas, grenades/explosives,)

 

Now from what I have read of the ULTIMATES.... well let's just say I need to track down some TPBs and see what they have done with this reimagined star spangled avenger.

[Agent X]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Hermit, I absolutely agree with everything you wrote. Cap does study and train and he is the guy who is usually keeping the Avenger Files updated. He does a lot of homework on his opponents. He has studied different martial arts and languages. He has been portrayed as being "Mr. Prepared".

 

I suppose that I find that many other Heroes and Villains alike add to their arsenals in more tangible ways. Most every hero worth his salt keeps up his KS: Super Villain research and you are right he does seem to have some knowledge of most every Villain/Hero he runs across.

 

I ran an "homage" to Captain America once under another system and have recreated the Character as an NPC in my current campaign. My take is that the Super Soldier Serum may be refined and altered over time. I also had my "CapWannabe" start using a utility belt (usually for for fairly mundane things such as wire saws, combat knives, supertech High tension wire, some knockout gas, grenades/explosives,)

 

Now from what I have read of the ULTIMATES.... well let's just say I need to track down some TPBs and see what they have done with this reimagined star spangled avenger.

Hey, mainstream Cap isn't afraid to borrow Shield Tech if he thinks it would be handy. I have to say that I like the way Cap is portrayed much better than ElectroBatman.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Ult Cap -- the reflexes are the same, the strength and damage resistance are now up in the Golden Avenger's weight category, the strategic & tactical acumen have, if anything, been heightened, and he uses a more military mindset as opposed to Cap's absolute CvK. Also, he's a little like Batman -- he doesn't do 'fair', he does 'winning'.

 

(For one thing, his method of taking down Ult Wolverine involved revealing his real name and background to him, and then emptying a clip into Logan's stomach while Logan was busy being massively distracted by the flashbacks of his amnesia-blanked past.

 

Hey, the man had a war to fight, and didn't have all day to dance with Wolverine like it was a wrestling show or something. *g*)

[GTAgamemaster]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Ult Cap -- the reflexes are the same, the strength and damage resistance are now up in the Golden Avenger's weight category, the strategic & tactical acumen have, if anything, been heightened, and he uses a more military mindset as opposed to Cap's absolute CvK. Also, he's a little like Batman -- he doesn't do 'fair', he does 'winning'.

 

I always favored an idea that the super soldier serum would have had enhancing affects on his intellect as well and perhaps enhancing that pesky "killer instinct". I do enjoy this take on cap... he was after all a soldier and the taking of life while regrettable is sometimes necessary. (I do not wish to see him become some sad version of Punisher or Nuke or some such, but I do think that he should have the mentallity of a soldier. Killing sometimes comes with the job and a hero shouldn't like it but he may have to accept it.)

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

From ULTIMATE WAR #4

 

*Logan, busy making his escape through a sewer tunnel, turns around to see Ult Cap stepping out of a side passage. Cap has his shield up and covering his torso.*

 

"So this is the famous Captain America, huh? Had a hunch it would come down to you and me, bub."

 

"You mean you don't remember meeting me before, Jim? Once in Normandy in 1945 and twice in Africa in 1944?"

 

"What are you /talking/ about? My name ain't Jim!"

 

"Oh yes it /is/, Wolverine. Corporal James Howlett of the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion. Don't tell me they wiped all your memories when they redesigned your brain to hold all those fancy fight maneuvers, soldier?""

 

*Logan starts blinking in confusion and pain*

 

"What the hell are you /doing/ to me, man? Why are you unlocking all this crazy messed-up stuff in my head...?"

 

"Heck, why do you /think/, Jim? Tactical advantage, of course."

 

*lowers the shield -- to reveal the machine gun he's had leveled behind it the whole time*

 

"Now let's see if that healing factor of yours is as good as I /remember/."

 

*empties the entire clip into Wolverine while Logan's guard is down, and Logan drops like a sack of rice*

 

(of course, it didn't kill him, but it did keep him down long enough)

 

And no, Ult Cap isn't some crazy psycho killer. He's never used lethal force if non-lethal would do the job, and in many ways he's the nicest guy on the team. Definitely the most broad-minded and tolerant.

 

... but he's definitely the soldier's soldier, and feels no guilt about being such. Heck, when he attends social functions he doesn't even wear the superhero costume they made for him, just a set of Class A's.

[Hermit]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

... as opposed to Cap's absolute CvK.

 

Well, mainstream cap has killed IIRC, he once had to gun down an Ultimatium Agent to save hostages. However it could be argued that (by 5th Ed rules) he just managed to make that Ego Roll at -5 and overcome the CVK. I actually thought it was well handled. While shaken by the need for it, Cap used the incident to fuel his drive to take Flagsmasher down.

 

"Where are you going?"

"To get my honor back."

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Yeah, that was the definite gutting out the super-tough EGO roll situation for Cap 616. ("616" being the timeline designation for the mainstream MU, and what I use as convenient mental shorthand for 'mainline' Marvel characters.)

 

Ult Cap, otoh, wouldn't need the EGO roll -- he's Moderate CvK at best. His Total Commitment Psych Lim is honor and duty, not sacredness of life.