Reconciling Manga & Batman

[Superskrull]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Defently true. Which makes me think about fanfic.

 

Also, there ARE ways Dick could thinnk up to nullifie Ranma's advantages.

 

Yeah, there are, but he may not be expecting that cocky Japanese kid to also be strong enough to punch a hole in concrete or bend steel and agile enough to fight balanced on ropes & wires or the back of a sword.

 

Ranma being hit by water during the fight is almost a given, though.

 

I'm sure, however, that Dick can cope with these things. The trick is that Ranma has some superhuman stats in addition to martial skills and funky ch'i tricks.

 

Best move is to fight defensively and try to use the environment a lot.

[JmOz]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

One way to make them REALLY COMPETITIVE is this:

 

Give them an AP attack (Weapons are popular for this)

 

Give them find weakness as well

 

1/4 Defences....

[JmOz]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

My method for some of the issues:

 

Extra Damage Classes can not add to attacks vs inanimate objects...

[BlackSword]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I think I would view Ch'i powers more as magic. As someone else mentioned, in DBZ, they have chants and gestures in order to throw their massive attacks. Of course, I don't know if you can reconcile DBZ to comics levels. DBZ is at such ridiculous power levels that it would be hard to reconcile Superman in their universe. If you bring it down to the more Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon level, then its easier to see. Their fighting style may be at the Batman level, but instead of learning detecting skills they used their knowledge of martial arts to learn to super leap or other such poewrs.

 

I think that chi would be like magic, but would require martial arts knowledge in order to perform. If Batman squared off with a chi based fighter, but only doing martial manuvuers they may be evenly matched. In another situation, the chi character would blast villain A with his fireball, and Batman would find a clue that no one thought was there. If you were building a system or world, then chi powers would require a certain number of points spent in martial manuvuers before the character could learn chi based powers.

[steriaca]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

My new question is, who do you think could put down Kenshiro, AKA "The Fist Of The North Star"?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

My method for some of the issues:

 

Extra Damage Classes can not add to attacks vs inanimate objects...

I suggested that too!

 

Great Minds and All

[Susano]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

My new question is' date=' who do you think could put down Kenshiro, AKA "The Fist Of The North Star"?[/quote']

 

My money would be on Superman. Especially the KINGDOM COME version.

[Nuadha]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

 

And, if all else fails, Dick could always get Ranma wet (if he knows about Jusinkyo or not).

 

 

This is turning into an extremely geeky conversation.....but....I can't help myself!

 

Dick would certainly find out about the Jusenkyo curse. He was trained by the world's greatest detective after all! Sure, a dim-wit like Kuno may not be able to figure out the pig-tailed girl's connection to Ranma Saotome, but Dick is pretty bright.

 

However, I don't think that it would give him much of an advantage. Girl-type Ranma may not be as strong as boy-type Ranma but other than that, Ranma retains all of his skill and training. Dick may be able to get a few punches in while a wet Ranma-chan screams "What 'dya do that for!?" but it wouldn't be enough to take Ranma down.

 

As far as Neil's original question goes, I simply look at it this way: Characters who use their martial arts abilities beyond the levels of reality, such as many anime characters, are magic/martial arts characters who are using magical skills. They don't lessen the coolness of "naturals" because they are basically "cheating" by tapping into mystical energies rather than relying on just their reflexes and skills. Should someone like the Shadow who has trained has learned the art of "clouding mens minds" or Goku who has some sort of Super-Sayan powers (sorry, I don't know the term since I don't watch the show). They are hybrid characters.

[Katherine]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Isn't girl type Ranma a little faster?

[Nuadha]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Girl-type Ranma does seem faster and it makes sense she should be. She is smaller and more athletic than Boy-type Ranma. However, I've never seen it stated in the comic or anime whether this was a fact.

[steriaca]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

My money would be on Superman. Especially the KINGDOM COME version.

 

Woulden't Clark have Tusbu Points also? Shure, thay may not be in the "exact right place" as a normal human...but his head should explode just the same if he touched thoes points. Still, Kenshuro has to touch thoes points. And Sups is mighty fast.

 

So, prehaps he could fight Kenshuro and win.

[steriaca]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Girl-type Ranma does seem faster and it makes sense she should be. She is smaller and more athletic than Boy-type Ranma. However' date=' I've never seen it stated in the comic or anime whether this was a fact.[/quote']

 

Acualy, the advantages and disavantages of each form sort of cancel each other out. Yes, girl-type is slightly faster than boy-type, but girl-type lacks the reach of boy-type (body becomes shorter, shorter arms, lags become slightly longer). Mostly, Rumiko-sama simply ignored the advantages and disavantages.

[zornwil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

One thing that struck me about many iterations of Batman is that he has a number of, basically, Transforms along with targetted Martial Strikes, such as when he cripples someone by hitting a nerve just right. Of course this is known in the MA manuevers as well. This isn't ch'i or such but he surely has an extreme precision.

 

However, street-level Batman does mostly win by a combo of luck, skill, and "fighting smart" (as in the precision comment above), not actual fighting ability per se. I don't think any of these 3 factors can be ignored.

[Chimpira]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

In my last Champions game I added this concept that I borrowed from 'The Man Who Never Missed' series of books. It was called the Mushashi Flex. I adapted it to my campaign and simply called it The Path. It was a system of how the best martial artists in the world kept track of whom was the best. The hero group on their first outing ran into a character called Salem amongst others on the villian team. Although they won the fight, none could beat this powerful martial artist. I gave her all the bells and whistles (teleport, invisibility, desolidification and a little armor all based off her ability to turn to mist.) The martial artist of the group wanted to know more and to find out the reason why she called them all unworthy even before she fought any of them. Through a series of solos he finds out about The Path, learns how he can be put on it and how to be able to determine the innate strength of an opponent at a glance. The ranking starts at about 100 and the low man on the totem pole can be challenged to take his spot and then you have to work your way up in regards to ranking but most importantly you could challenge any member out of sequence and they would have to adhere to the rules of the challenge, although your ranking would not change, your prestige would. The rules of confrontation were that you announced in a formal matter your ranking on The Path, any honorifics you have, and who your master(s) were. The two combatants then would test skill versus skill. No powers and no armor (unless innate). Before the groups martial artist finally managed to get on the path, he had run into Salem several times. The last time was a fight so climatic that I was surprised I had the pleasure to GM it. both team (hero and villian) to the man was knocked out of the big fight with Salem and my team's martial artist taking out their opponents in the same phase. They then looked at each other across the hallway and he immediately started to recite his ranking on The Path and started to strip off his armor. She did the same. The fight utilized every aspect of their surroundings and martial arts skill. In the end he broke her arm and stood triumphant over his greatest enemy. ( The other players actually cheered)That was how I was able to level the playing field when it came to martial artists with chi powers or martial arts related powers (Salem) with martial artist that relied on skill alone (the group's martial artist). If you had powers you could use them in a fight but not if you were issued a challenge and wanted to stay on The Path. It was an honor thing.

[Storn]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

If you had powers you could use them in a fight but not if you were issued a challenge and wanted to stay on The Path. It was an honor thing.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

cool bit.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

If you had powers you could use them in a fight but not if you were issued a challenge and wanted to stay on The Path. It was an honor thing.

 

In game terms, it is easy to tell what a "power" is compared to say, a maneuver... but in conceptual terms, not so much. Is a ch'i blast really a power? Philosophically, it is simply an advanced form of a punch. Using a punch is focusing your ch'i through your fist... and a ch'i blast is really being even BETTER at focusing, that you don't even need to hit them physically. How could it be dishonorable for such an ability to be used, when the development of such an ability is what martial arts is all about?

 

That's the key issue. On a philosophical level, eastern martial arts concepts conflict with and even overwhelm western martial concepts. Our society would deconstruct things, and draw arbitrary "this is a skill, but this is a power" distinctions that mean nothing to an eastern practitioner.

 

To the western sensibility, powers are distinct from humanity... but from an eastern sensibility, it is just a matter of scale along a continuum. If I am stronger than my opponent, is it dihonorable to use my strength? If I can leap higher, is it dihonorable to jump? If I have the ability to move you with my mind, is it dishonorable to do so? It is as natural to me as my arms and legs. Like saying it is dishonorable for a tiger to use it's claws.

 

Essentially, superpowers in general tend to diminish the concept of martial arts altogether. To paraphrase Susano... they just don't seem so super in comparison.

[Storn]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Neil, I agree with you. Because Hero allows for 9 ways to build one particular power/skill/ability, it can become hard to distinguish what is "super power" and what is simply martial skill.

 

Chimbra, you stated:

No powers and no armor (unless innate)

 

Herein lies the problem. I build martial artist with damage reduction OR resistance. Her ability to fold with the blow (Cotton Kung Fu!), minimize an attack. I say that this is her MARTIAL SKILL, such as Shang Chi. It is not a chi or mystic power.

 

You don't. We fight. I clean your clock and move up the Path because I could afford to take a few more punches, and go on the offense more.

 

Note: Neil and I have a lot Blocking and Dodging going on in our martial arts fights. Lots of defensive actions. But I did notice when I played Drake (a 1/2 Dragon parent, has "innate" armor and is definitely a mystical martial artist), that I would take blows simply because I could and launch attacks of my own. This was in a game of super martial arts and while it was in a superhero world, all the opponents were martial arts in tone. Low defenses, high dexes, speed, martial arts manuevers.

[OddHat]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I have not read the entie thread, and I'm sorry if something like this has already been posted, but:

 

Bricks overshadow real strength athletes.

Speedsters overshadow real runners.

Gadgeteers overshadow real scientists.

 

It's just a function of the medium that Wuxia martial artists will overshadow real martial artists. Comic book writers avoid this by just not letting the two interact, or by changing the relative power levels of the characters when they do. As a GM, your best bet when handling this is to just not let players mix the types in your games, or to set limits on Chi powers. In my campaigns I simply treat Wuxia artists as another type of super, and China is divided into a dozen kingdoms.

[Chimpira]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Neil, I agree with you. Because Hero allows for 9 ways to build one particular power/skill/ability, it can become hard to distinguish what is "super power" and what is simply martial skill.

 

Chimbra, you stated:

 

 

Herein lies the problem. I build martial artist with damage reduction OR resistance. Her ability to fold with the blow (Cotton Kung Fu!), minimize an attack. I say that this is her MARTIAL SKILL, such as Shang Chi. It is not a chi or mystic power.

 

You don't. We fight. I clean your clock and move up the Path because I could afford to take a few more punches, and go on the offense more.

 

Note: Neil and I have a lot Blocking and Dodging going on in our martial arts fights. Lots of defensive actions. But I did notice when I played Drake (a 1/2 Dragon parent, has "innate" armor and is definitely a mystical martial artist), that I would take blows simply because I could and launch attacks of my own. This was in a game of super martial arts and while it was in a superhero world, all the opponents were martial arts in tone. Low defenses, high dexes, speed, martial arts manuevers.

Actually it is not really a problem. What is defined a power and what is defined a skill would be up to the GM and the player (Now that leaves a lot of room). In my game I would not have allowed the chi blast to be used in the contest. Other GM's might feel that it is just an extension of martial arts. OK. Then in their world that can work. As for buying things that work like powers but are martial skills. I would allow those to be used on The Path, like the fold with the blow. If a player had a flash attack that was him allowing others to glimpse his fighting spirit I would not allow it but if another came up with a flash that required him to slash someone above the eyes with his fingernails to cause the blood to blind the opponent I would allow on The Path. Goku level attacks where you can destoy the moon, well, somehow I do not see that happening in my game.

 

As for being stronger, well, if Bulldozer heard about this and then bought himself 10 points of wrestling so that he can take advantage of his strength and defenses to become the best martial artist in the world. I would have to say that no one would deem him worthy to be on The Path and for the record my player would have easily taken him down. Of course as you progressed up the path you would fight stronger opponents. It would be possible to fight someone that is stronger (like Bulldozer), has more defenses and has crazy skills. That would definitely give him an edge but if your opponent did not have an edge then he would not be ahead of you on The Path. Salem was ranked at 86 on The Path and she stayed that way during the whole campaign for a reason. A fight along The Path should be a big event as you face each opponent and you build your strength and skill. As with everything it will depend on your game. If Wuxia is really big with your players, modify the system to suit that need. If you have The Path set up and someone new says that the method that the current Path takes is wrong encourage the player to persue that during the game, maybe causing them to change how they perceive 'powers' on The Path or maybe he starts a new tradition with those that take a different Path. Or maybe one already exists. Maybe those people with martial arts that can shatter mountains look down on those that take The Path but watch it for the next one that could ascend from the Path and become more like themselves. Eh. It is up to you.

 

That particular game was played with nothing but people steeped in Eastern Philosophy by the way (I was the only one born in America. Most were teenagers when they became Americans. Born either in Korea or China and they were heavy, heavy into martial arts and philosophy. Man, do I remember the arguements.) and they did not seem to have a problem with it. As with all things in roleplaying if your players are having a good time then you are doing something right.

[Chimpira]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

And for the record I believe that you are right about game terms versus philosophy, Neil. It just seemed to fit well in my world and gave my player something that was really his own without having to force him to buy wuxia abilities to compete. That was not the direction he wanted to go.

[Storn]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Chimpira, I really like the Path concept, I wasn't trying to dis it in any way.

 

Yeah, I think the caveat of GM and Player deciding what is acceptable is perfectly reasonable. It might lead to some arguements, of course, martial artists tend to be extremely passionate about their arts. Okay, artists of any stripe tend to be passionate about their arts. .

 

Maybe....

 

Inner chi (superlative awareness, maybe armor/dmg red/dmg resist due to

awareness/roll w/ blow, fast reflexes, blind fighting) might be okay on the Path.

 

But Outer destructive chi are decidedly not. Chi blasts, force field auras, dim mak, poison abilities, drains, flashes etc. etc.

 

Just throwing that out for discussion.

[Chimpira]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Oh I did not take it as a dis. I am sorry if my reply seemed like I did. Somethings work in my games that would not fly in others, I fully understand and respect this. Trust me my concepts are not set in stone. People coming at you from a different angle just allow you to improve on it some more or recognize if you are using flawed logic.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Chimpira... same as Storn. I think the Path idea is really cool... I just have a problem with applying the arbitrary "worthy" concept to disallow supers. It just raises too many questions if you put yourself in the place of a super person in that world. "Why can't I compete? Why can't I use my natural powers the same way that guy uses his natural strength?"

 

Perfect example is Storn's long running character, Vector. High Powered TK... and he actually knows a little Jiujitsu... able to throw and block and grab... with his hands AND with his TK. His TK is a natural ability (no weapons or cybernetics or what-have-you) so combined with a smattering of training (and a shitload of combat experience... like 12 years worth) he'd ANNIHILATE almost any mystic martial artist in my campaign. So... when we as players want to do a Tekken style game... free for all of colorful "fighters" all competing... we are posed with this question? What keeps Vector out of this? He could trounce everyone with relative ease in single combat... he is noble and honorable and a stalwart warrior, so it would be hard to claim him as "unworthy"... and it as players we find an entire genre that we love (martial arts, from gritty to wuxia) pulled apart and left wanting. It's just kind of depressing, that's all. One of those "things that work in comics, but not in games"

 

Well... it does work in a game... but you have to take a very different approach to reconcile it with a consistent game world... and it involves arbitrary rules...

 

... and hoping Vector doesn't get it into his head to kick some ass because he wants a cool trophy of a head with pointy hair!

 

Hey... thanks for the concept. I really do like it... and I appreciate folks pulling this thread out of it's innane "Ranma vs. Nightwing" geek crap it fell into. Geez.

[Storn]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

with his hands AND with his TK. His TK is a natural ability (no weapons or cybernetics or what-have-you) so combined with a smattering of training (and a shitload of combat experience... like 12 years worth) he'd ANNIHILATE almost any mystic martial artist in my campaign. So... when we as players want to do a Tekken style game... free for all of colorful "fighters" all competing... we are posed with this question? What keeps Vector out of this?

 

Not that I want Vector in any sort of Tekken or Path tourney, but I had this thought going back to Internal and External chi displays and powers. The Tekken Path council (or what have you) has set up this criteria, Once and Only Once, during a bout may you use an External Power such as chi, cybernetics, mutant powers, etc etc.

 

Bouts are the best of three. So, one really has to pick and choose his spot to go all "Goku".

 

sure, Vector can enter the Tekken Path, but w/o his force field (can only do once if he doesn't use his TK to blast, grab etc), a bare smattering of martial arts manuevers... will get his butt kicked.

 

Drake, my dual-form martial artist, his human form is the more skillful, the Drake form the more powerful, he can only transform to Drake form once.

 

This takes away from some of the tension of having only one bout.... but it would allow for the wily, incredibly skilled martial artist to take on a wuxia wonder. The wily guy knows he is going to lose one bout, but hopes the skill can take the day in the next two.

 

Besides, those awesome maneuevers in Tekken or Street Fighter or in anime are either a combo of insane button mashing.... or in anime, it always seems to be the last attack/ last minute defense. So, in a way, kinda goes hand in hand with keeping the convention.

[Chimpira]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Truth be told. I think that finding a way for Vector to compete in a tournament would be a great challenge for the players. It could involve finding the source of the 'rules' that started The Path itself and maybe coming up with a different interpretation that would allow it or it could lead to the abolishment of The Path altogether. People on the path that like things the way they are might send agents to rid themselves of this Vector. Why are they so protective of The Path? Are they just elitest or is there more to The Path that is being told? And what of this prophecy? (you know you always got to throw one of those in.) For my game The Path was more important as seeds for future adventures.

 

As for the worthy part of it, I got to admit that it does kind of suck for those on the outside looking in. It reminds me of that bit from 'Bruce Lee: The Dragon' where Bruce Lee was told to stop teaching outsiders. He thought that was wrong and did something about it. (Some of my friends would groan knowing I brought that movie up) I'm happy you liked the idea but if it does not fit with the way you want to see things in your game world I am 100% behind you.