Reconciling Manga & Batman

[RDU Neil]

BNakagawa brought up a point I've discussed with my own play group... but we've never come to a firm conclusion on this. I wonder what the rest of you think...

 

How do you reconcile the "greatest fighter in the world as Batman" with the "greatest martial master in the world as Goku!"

 

 

Now, Dragonball Z is a total extreme... but the concept is still troubling. I come from a background of having studied martial arts... so for me, the characters like Batman/Richard Dragon/Lady Shiva/Shang Chi... those are the kind of "martial masters" I want in my games.

 

OTOH... I love wuxia style movies, and Iron Fist or Tekken style super-powers that develop "through mastery of the martial arts" as well. I allowed this style of martial arts into my campaign as the players kind of demanded it... and it certainly doesn't conflict with a world full of metahumans.

 

Problem is, I really feel the two are incompatible in a game world. If both exist, it begs the question "Why doesn't the Batman-archetype character have amazing chi powers and actually become superhuman if he really is the best there is?"

 

Maybe I'm analyzing this too much... but I've just found that, before I inserted the more "mystic" or "super" aspects of manga style martial arts into the campaign... there was a place for the Batman/Daredevil/Connor Hawk type PC in my world... and afterward, they just became overshadowed because they couldn't match the raw power of the "martial masters" who could ride the lightning and call down chi-blasts of fire, or whatever.

 

Has this ever been an issue in any of your campaigns?

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Batman isn't the World's Greatest Fighter, even in the DCU. He's the World's Greatest Detective.

 

As to the chi powers thing, maybe that is a problem. But Karate Kid was the best even without them. I think you just have to give Karate Kid types an absolutely ridiculous amount of CV and damage classes. To Hell with justifying it.

[nexus]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Focus?

 

For characters like Goku, the martial arts and fighting are their purpose for exsistence. That is what they are striving for and it allows them to push past human limits and develop abilities that rival the superhuman. Character like Batman are great fighters, but the Martial Arts for them are a means to a different end. In Batman's case its being a hero and dispensing Justice, that's his primary goal. Being a Hero is secondary to Ryu and Goku, being the world's greatest fighter is primary.

 

That's justification number one.

 

Number is that Batman does have "chi powers". His obscencely high skills, his nightmarish stealth and wits and intimidating presence are manifestations of his intense focus. Chi powers are just human ability taken to the limit and Batman has that in spades.

 

That rationalization number 2.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Batman isn't the World's Greatest Fighter, even in the DCU. He's the World's Greatest Detective.

 

As to the chi powers thing, maybe that is a problem. But Karate Kid was the best even without them. I think you just have to give Karate Kid types an absolutely ridiculous amount of CV and damage classes. To Hell with justifying it.

 

And that's my problem (and it may be only me) but I have to justify it. I'm no master martial artist, but I know enough about it, experienced it enough, to know what is stretching a bit, and what is just ludicrous. I don't do ludicrous very easily. I never liked the classic Val Armor, as that was clearly written by people who knew nothing about martial arts... it was a just a gimmick for a set of powers... like magic, or radiation, or whatever. The current Karate Kid doesn't make any pretense as to being able to actually harm Mon-El or Superboy... but they've spent very little story time on that character so far.

 

 

You have to read Denny O'Neil's Batman or Question... Doug Moench's Shang Chi... Chuck Dixon's Green Arrow or Nightwing... and then see what an attempt at believable (not realistic) martial arts might be. (And in those books, Batman was right up there with Lady Shiva as the best there is... until Connor Hawk proved his ability... sigh... I miss Connor... and don't even get me started with the new Batgirl...)

 

To me, Martial Arts are cool as hell... but limited against real metahumans in effectiveness unless coupled with super strength, cybernetics, magic/tech weapons, or chi-mastery that makes you a superhuman as well. I'm just in the camp that says "I don't care how well Batman knows how to throw a punch, he'll never hurt Superman." To be human is to be limited... and to break those limitations is to become superhuman, which changes the whole dynamic. The whole manga/anime/easter philosophy/legend/myth stuff (as cool as it is) breaks that classic western supers dichotomy of human vs. superhuman.

 

To Nexus' point... you could play Batman as "superhuman" in his focus... and I'd certainly give him Legendary stats... but that really doesn't fit my image of him (certainly not the Detective Comics/Batman character... the JLA Batman... that is someone else, completely.)

[freakboy6117]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

well starting with the obvious stuff goku isnt human hes more like what would happen if you put superman through rigerous martial arts training. the few totally human fighters are no where near his power level [or at least during dragon ball z].

 

as for teh few hyuman fighters on teh show instead of calling it CHi call it mystrical energy and says its magic

 

now those martial artists are spell casters after all don't most of the super powerful z fighter moves have incantations genstures and concentration? all that ride teh lightning wuxia flying and such is just magic harnessed through ritual and meditation.

[Blue]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I view it simply as a matter of origin, trainer, and the intent of the character.

 

For example, I have Anthem, who was trained by a famed (in martial arts circles) master who traveled the world looking for the "one pupil" in each location to train. Her training is utterly incomplete so there may have been further steps she could have gone, but the master is gone now.

 

Then I have the Black Lantern, a cult of mystics with a background in martial arts. I created them in my very first campaign as an origin for the martial artist Midnight. The idea was that they studied and even embraced evil because through it's understanding they could destroy evil. They end up with a lot of defectors to the side of evil. But their martial artists have a mystical quality, kind of like The Hand (Elektra).

 

Then I have a few combat machines. Literally. These are characters programmed with martial arts. Think of how Neo got his fighting abilities in the Matrix, but then consider that being technically proficient at something doesn't give you the inner fire that allows you to do extrodinary things with your MA. Just because he can break a brick by striking the central point with his fist doesn't mean he can focus his chi and break it with a tap of his index finger; That's a matter of summong energy from within that you don't get from being technically accurate.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Okay, here's my suggestion. Define ki powers as requiring innate ability, not just training, in the same way that magic does. Batman doesn't have ki powers for the same reason that he could never cast spells, no matter how hard he studied. And if he ran up against someone who had all of his skill and physical training, but also had the capability to access ki powers, he'd get beaten - same as if he ran into someone who had all of his skill and physical training, but also had superhuman strength and toughness.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Okay' date=' here's my suggestion. Define ki powers as requiring innate ability, not just training, in the same way that magic does. Batman doesn't have ki powers for the same reason that he could never cast spells, no matter how hard he studied. And if he ran up against someone who had all of his skill and physical training, but also had the capability to access ki powers, he'd get beaten - same as if he ran into someone who had all of his skill and physical training, but also had superhuman strength and toughness.[/quote']

 

Interesting idea... but one that goes against my understanding of the philosophy behind chi/ki powers. I may be wrong, but the whole concept of ki/chi is that every human has it, but only those who commit to learning the skill and techniques to focus it can really manifest it. Chi powers are a result of intense study, pure mind, whatever... and are lauded because, while everyone COULD have them, only a select few DO, because only a few could truly commit to the martial art. Thus, again, why doesn't Batman, the most committed and focused EVER, have Chi powers?

 

To do it your way strikes me as a mitochlorians kind of thing... reducing chi powers to a genetic predisposition... almost a mutant power.

 

 

I assume that

in the same way that magic does

is a reference to the 5th Edition Champs Universe? My interpretation (in my campaing world) would allow for anyone to learn magic (but just that very few people do it the same way, so it can't be codified like a science.) I don't use the current Champs U for my campaign at all.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Interesting idea... but one that goes against my understanding of the philosophy behind chi/ki powers. I may be wrong, but the whole concept of ki/chi is that every human has it, but only those who commit to learning the skill and techniques to focus it can really manifest it. Chi powers are a result of intense study, pure mind, whatever... and are lauded because, while everyone COULD have them, only a select few DO, because only a few could truly commit to the martial art. Thus, again, why doesn't Batman, the most committed and focused EVER, have Chi powers?

 

To do it your way strikes me as a mitochlorians kind of thing... reducing chi powers to a genetic predisposition... almost a mutant power.

 

 

I assume that is a reference to the 5th Edition Champs Universe? My interpretation (in my campaing world) would allow for anyone to learn magic (but just that very few people do it the same way, so it can't be codified like a science.) I don't use the current Champs U for my campaign at all.

Perhaps Batman doesn't want them. Perhaps Ch'i and Ki abilities are quasi mystical? Batman doesn't use magic, he wouldn't toss around fireballs, it's not his style. He could easily have "invisible" Ch'i abilities...things he could relate too, durability, meditative healing and reinvigoration (he keeps long hours) purification (to counteract poisons)... but he doesn't need brightly colored flaming strikes, it get's in the way of his stealth.

Shiva probably does have access to Ch'i fireballs, but why would she use them. She's one of the greatest willed fighters there is. She wants to be challenged, not launch fireballs from thousands of yards away. Shiva is an in your face kind of gal. I think of it as more the personality of the fighter. Batman doesn't want to be a superbeing. He'd only lose his edge if he had superpowers (at least in his mind) and so he ignores that kind of training.

Ironfist, more focused on martial arts than crimefighting has developed neato abilities because of it.

[KA.]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

BNakagawa brought up a point I've discussed with my own play group... but we've never come to a firm conclusion on this. I wonder what the rest of you think...

 

How do you reconcile the "greatest fighter in the world as Batman" with the "greatest martial master in the world as Goku!"

 

 

Now, Dragonball Z is a total extreme... but the concept is still troubling. I come from a background of having studied martial arts... so for me, the characters like Batman/Richard Dragon/Lady Shiva/Shang Chi... those are the kind of "martial masters" I want in my games.

 

OTOH... I love wuxia style movies, and Iron Fist or Tekken style super-powers that develop "through mastery of the martial arts" as well. I allowed this style of martial arts into my campaign as the players kind of demanded it... and it certainly doesn't conflict with a world full of metahumans.

 

Problem is, I really feel the two are incompatible in a game world. If both exist, it begs the question "Why doesn't the Batman-archetype character have amazing chi powers and actually become superhuman if he really is the best there is?"

 

Maybe I'm analyzing this too much... but I've just found that, before I inserted the more "mystic" or "super" aspects of manga style martial arts into the campaign... there was a place for the Batman/Daredevil/Connor Hawk type PC in my world... and afterward, they just became overshadowed because they couldn't match the raw power of the "martial masters" who could ride the lightning and call down chi-blasts of fire, or whatever.

 

Has this ever been an issue in any of your campaigns?

 

 

RDU Neil,

I don't mean to be facetious, but your question reminds me of asking:

"Why can't Dick Grayson say 'Shazam' and turn into Captain Marvel?"

Well, because that is not his thing, that's why.

I don't mean to be using game mechanics to justify or explain "reality", but think of it this way:

Character A is Bruce Lee, Human Martial Artist.

Character B is Johnny Cage, Fireball Tossing Video Game Martial Artist.

To start, assume we see each character early in their career.

We will assume that both characters start out with the exact same STR, DEX, CON, SPD, PD, ED, and that they both buy the same package of Martial Arts moves. The two characters are identical, except for a couple of background skills.

Now, they start to gain experience.

If Johnny wants to start tossing Fireballs, he is going to have to pay for them with his newly earned experience points.

He doesn't just get them for free, just because he is from the "video game" genre.

So, while Bruce continues to put points into DEX, SPD, and Damage Classes, as well as acquiring new moves, Johnny's Martial Arts are pretty much stagnant. He can certainly put up a good fight, hand to hand, but he has to rely on the fireballs now, if he even hopes to match up to Bruce. And if Bruce can get close up, where the Fireballs are less effective, it is going to be "lights out" for Johnny.

 

By the same token, just because someone has created a fictional construct of "Best Martial Artist in the World who can also Throw Nuclear Level Fireballs" doesn't mean you have to write it up that way in your game. In my world people pay points for what they have, and if you put points into Fireballs, and the other guy puts all his points into Martial Arts, he is going to be a better Martial Artist than you. That doesn't mean he will be more powerful than you, after all, he could put all his points into a No Range, Area Effect, Energy Blast with Personal Immunity, and wipe out a city block at a time.

But he still is not a better Martial Artist.

 

And if the question is, why can I build a better Martial Artist with 1000 points than I can with 350 points, well that is just silly. Obviously if the Pre-Crisis Superman used his Super-Intellect to learn every move Batman knew, and combined them with Super Strength, Super Speed, and Invulnerability, of course he could kick Batman's butt. You could beat him by dropping a nuke on him too, but what does that have to do with anything.

Batman is the best human Martial Artist, in the DC world.

He is so good that he can sometimes do some Stun to Super Humans.

But that doesn't mean he can take on Galactus with a Black Belt.

 

KA.

[Haerandir]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

How do you reconcile the "greatest fighter in the world as Batman" with the "greatest martial master in the world as Goku!"

 

Well, the short answer is: you don't. There can only be one 'greatest', unless you claim that 'fighter' and 'martial artist' are legitimately separate categories, in which case, they're sufficiently different concepts to make the whole question moot.

 

As for why Batman doesn't have Chi (or Ki/Ch'i/Qi or whatever) powers, there are a number of possible explanations. As people have suggested, maybe he doesn't want them, maybe he can't use them or maybe he does have them, they're just less obvious than Ye Olde Flaming Dragon Fist.

 

The real question is, where are all these people learning to use Chi powers? If you have to travel to the Lost City of K'un Lun to learn the ancient paths from the Monks of the Yengtao Temple (to mix a few universes), then it's simple... Batman doesn't have Chi powers because he's too busy being a detective to drop yet another 5 or 10 years on training in the mystic Orient to learn to project fire from his fists. He's got a Batarang, he can throw it, he's satisfied.

 

If such powers 'just happen', then, well, Batman is definitely an odd duck. On the other hand, he's got one or two psychological hangups. Maybe his unquenchable thirst for justice interferes with his meditation (it might be pretty hard to concentrate when every time you try to clear your mind, you see your parents dying all over again, or you start having bat-themed visions). Or, maybe he just doesn't believe in Chi.

 

One of the things I liked about the old Streetfighter RPG (yes, the one from White Wolf) was that some martial arts styles were based on Willpower, and others were based on Chi. The Willpower-themed styles tended to be more brutal, pragmatic, 'real-world' styles, while the Chi-themed styles tended more towards fireballs and inexplicable movement abilities. So maybe Batman is just 'one-of-the-best' at one of the less flashy, but still effective, Willpower styles. It would certainly fit his character concept.

 

As for whether or not he has Chi powers, I think you could justify them (at least in some versions of the character). How many times have we seen him disappear after stepping behind an object that obviously couldn't actually conceal his departure (moving bus, jumping over the side of a building, etc.)? I mean, the idea there is that he's just so good at being sneaky that he can defy physcial limitations, right? How is that (at base) different from being so good at fighting that he can defy physical limitations? Maybe he's just working in a subtler vein than that Goku guy.

 

And, of course, if you prefer the old school, reductionist Batman, then the reason he doesn't have Chi powers is because he devotes most of his time & ingenuity to building gadgets, and frankly his pure MA skills are a little rusty. After all, he mostly uses them against mooks. Against a real super-human, he just has to be good enough to tag them with This Week's Weakness-Exploiting Gadget, or else he points Superman at them.

 

Now, most of that only applies to the specific case of Batman. I think you can make a pretty good case for him not being a true 'martial arts master', though, so if your question becomes, "Why does Old Master Kwai down the street lack wacky Chi powerz, even after a lifetime of studying Kung Fu?" then we're back at square one. However, the basic possibilities remain the same.

 

Options (as I see them):

 

1) Non-chi styles. Old Master Kwai is a master of a particular sub-style of Kung Fu (or whatever) that espouses a philosophy of seeking physical perfection and/or mental discipline over spiritual energy manipulation.

 

2) Special training. Old Master Kwai has never traveled to K'un Lun.

 

3) Personal choice. "Huh. Fireballs. Teleportation. A true master craves not these things."

 

4) He does have Chi powers, he just hasn't shown them to you yet. Or he doesn't advertise them as such. Or he is unable/unwilling to use them for some reason (personal vow, physical infirmity, psychological hang-ups, etc.)

 

Another possibility (also derived from the Streetfighter RPG) is that flashy Chi powers are relatively new (or recently rediscovered after centuries of disuse). Thus, any given martial artist might be trained in the old 'traditional' physical-only styles or the new 'super' chi-using styles, based entirely on background. Perhaps there is a rivalry or philosophical dispute between the practitioners of each 'meta-school'. Thus, Old Master Kwai (or Shang Chi/Lady Shiva/whoever) is acknowledged as the 'greatest martial artist' by 'traditionalists', who deny that Goku is really a martial artist (by their definition) at all.

 

This leads to another possible explanation, which is that 'Goku' is utilizing some other special effect to generate his energy blasts (magic, psionics, midichlorians, alien space monkey powers) and just thinks he's doing it by 'harnessing his Chi'. Someone who naturally has the power to project fire from his fists, who first taps that power while performing a martial arts meditation exercise, might never contemplate the possibility that he could have done it anyhow. As far as he knows, it was the meditation exercise that did it. Weird how no one else has been able to master the trick. They're probably just not concentrating.

 

OK, I'm starting to wind down now.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Well I just finished watching a program on real world chi/ki powers some of the examples where truly incredible and bats is probably more than capable of all of them.

 

Examples included throwing chop sticks through thin ply board and metal sheet hammering nails with your palm denting steel pipes painting whilst standing on raw eggs.

 

You I also saw, a sonic energy blast knock some one to the ground, people standing stock still against the force of 6 people pushing against them, breaking a wooden board whilst holding an egg.

And some one dead lifting 150 kilos and towing a 3-ton truck with their Wang.

 

If this is what normal human being can do by focusing chi how much more would batman want.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Interesting idea... but one that goes against my understanding of the philosophy behind chi/ki powers. I may be wrong, but the whole concept of ki/chi is that every human has it, but only those who commit to learning the skill and techniques to focus it can really manifest it. Chi powers are a result of intense study, pure mind, whatever... and are lauded because, while everyone COULD have them, only a select few DO, because only a few could truly commit to the martial art. Thus, again, why doesn't Batman, the most committed and focused EVER, have Chi powers?

 

To do it your way strikes me as a mitochlorians kind of thing... reducing chi powers to a genetic predisposition... almost a mutant power.

 

 

I assume that is a reference to the 5th Edition Champs Universe? My interpretation (in my campaing world) would allow for anyone to learn magic (but just that very few people do it the same way, so it can't be codified like a science.) I don't use the current Champs U for my campaign at all.

 

Just to clarify, I don't use CU either, and I hate the midichlorians idea (I was thinking more along the lines of talent - some people have it, some others [even very good martial artists] don't). If your campaign world lets anyone learn magic if they train hard enough, then chi probably shouldn't be restricted like that either.

 

Okay, from what I can see, basically what you are looking for is a way to seperate "really good martial artist" and "has chi powers." Try this on for size - actually manifesting supernatural chi powers (ie, shooting fireballs out of your hands) is a "branch" of martial study in the same way that focusing on a weapon is. So, not all martial artists use them, just as not all martial artists fight with weapons. Batman could learn to use his martial arts with, say, a sword, but he doesn't - likewise, he could study chi powers, but he'd have to take his concentration away from other skills to do so, and thus he doesn't.

 

Alternatively, not everyone's ki powers work the same way. Batman unlocked his ki powers and thus learned to push his body to the limits of human ability, defeat men armed with guns by using thrown weapons and his bare hands, and so on. In game terms, he's really, really good and it's connected with his ki powers. Ryu, on the other hand, is also really good but his chi powers let him do different things - namely, throw ki fireballs. So, every good martial artist has chi powers, but they aren't always Powers in game terms and they aren't always obvious, or even inhuman abilities.

[Evil Toki]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I have to agree I always saw Batman as the greatest Detective in the world... and Goku isn't just the greatest martial artists he is the greatest Fighter in the world, he is good with just about any form of combat... outside of Mental LOL

 

Goku is built on a ludicrous scale along with his allies and enemies, and can casually destroy the world with a gesture, who constantly wantes to find the next challenge. That is his whole life, thankfully Batman is much more well rounded.

 

Batman as a character is not about mystical martial arts per se, he is a master, everyone can see that, but he isn't a mystical master. Nor would I like him to be, his appeal is that he is the ultimate man in ways, tough, smart, handsome, and an awesome warrior.

 

But he isn't ludicrous, I don't consider Dragonball Z martial arts in the least despite the inspiration. It is plain out and out over the top destruction with punches, kicks, and nuclear ki blasts

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Okay, from what I can see, basically what you are looking for is a way to seperate "really good martial artist" and "has chi powers." Try this on for size - actually manifesting supernatural chi powers (ie, shooting fireballs out of your hands) is a "branch" of martial study in the same way that focusing on a weapon is. So, not all martial artists use them, just as not all martial artists fight with weapons. Batman could learn to use his martial arts with, say, a sword, but he doesn't - likewise, he could study chi powers, but he'd have to take his concentration away from other skills to do so, and thus he doesn't.

 

Yes... exactly... (and boy do I have to remember not to use real comic examples like Batman and Goku, as everyone becomes obsessed with those characters, and miss the point that I was just using those archetypes as an example... yeesshh...)

 

I like what you have here... so as some above brought up... lets bring metagame issues into it. I have two players who both have "concepts" of their character being "the best martial artist around" and one makes a Shang-Chi type (example folks... don't start quoting Master of Kung Fu issues now) and another makes "Fist Of the Whirlwind" who has focused his ki to such an extent he can walk on air (fly, superleap) hit men by hitting the air toward them (energy blast), and move like the wind (desolid, or force field).

 

Now the first guy is all in the mode of the western idea of human fighter... but he is TOTALLY outclassed by the second guy in terms of power. The first guy can't justify (and yes, I very much control the amount of damage a character can do, based on their concept in my games) more than seven to 9 dice of damage with maybe find weakness... while the other guy could essentially justify massive energy blasts of 15-20 d6... 30 pt FF, etc. Both built on 350 points, but one clearly superior to the other... and thus you are shafting an entire genre character concept.

 

In the end, I think that is my problem. The two genres are in conflict... trying to meld them in a consistent manner shows the flaws in the genre concepts of both... and only one wins out in a game of comparison. So why would you ever play the human level "martial master" unless you just enjoy being the underpowered player on the team?

 

Really, this is more of a philosophical discussion of the mixing of genres, and how it points out the inconsistencies and flaws of the genres, more than making them enjoyable to play. But that may just be me...

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Yes... exactly... (and boy do I have to remember not to use real comic examples like Batman and Goku, as everyone becomes obsessed with those characters, and miss the point that I was just using those archetypes as an example... yeesshh...)

 

I like what you have here... so as some above brought up... lets bring metagame issues into it. I have two players who both have "concepts" of their character being "the best martial artist around" and one makes a Shang-Chi type (example folks... don't start quoting Master of Kung Fu issues now) and another makes "Fist Of the Whirlwind" who has focused his ki to such an extent he can walk on air (fly, superleap) hit men by hitting the air toward them (energy blast), and move like the wind (desolid, or force field).

 

Now the first guy is all in the mode of the western idea of human fighter... but he is TOTALLY outclassed by the second guy in terms of power. The first guy can't justify (and yes, I very much control the amount of damage a character can do, based on their concept in my games) more than seven to 9 dice of damage with maybe find weakness... while the other guy could essentially justify massive energy blasts of 15-20 d6... 30 pt FF, etc. Both built on 350 points, but one clearly superior to the other... and thus you are shafting an entire genre character concept.

 

In the end, I think that is my problem. The two genres are in conflict... trying to meld them in a consistent manner shows the flaws in the genre concepts of both... and only one wins out in a game of comparison. So why would you ever play the human level "martial master" unless you just enjoy being the underpowered player on the team?

 

Really, this is more of a philosophical discussion of the mixing of genres, and how it points out the inconsistencies and flaws of the genres, more than making them enjoyable to play. But that may just be me...

 

I don't know what the answer to that is, because it varies by every game. However, it should be the same as the answer to the same question if Fist of the Whirlwind were replaced by someone who had the exact same abilities with the SFX of a mutant power. So, in your game, why would someone choose to play Batman rather than Superman (as with your examples, don't read too far into the choice of characters - I realize Superman probably costs a lot more points).

[Blue]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

If they both claim to be the best, have them fight it out

I know, I'm not helping.

 

To me concept has generally been a matter of luck or knowledge. Either you're bitten by the radio active spider or someone takes you and teaches you that little known bit of lore about how to dent a panzer tank with a flick of your eyelash. On the first you can only get the same powers by replicating the procedure down to the minutest detail. The second you can gain only by being taught the procedure. So if there was a revered elder in Napal who knew how to remove your brain from your head through your nose by applying pressure to the sole of your foot, and Bruce Wayne came to him to learn this technique, it's simple to say that the revered elder looked into his dark soul and decided he's not worthy of it (even if maybe the elder misjudged).

 

I think you CAN be the greatest Martial Artist in the world and still not be privy to the ancient secret of removing a limb with application of a toothpick. And at the same time you can have the knowledge of how to do one or two spectacular CHI moves because you have studied that one aspect of things to an insane degree, yet you may not have the full scope of abilities.

 

I guess I'm saying I have less trouble with reconciling these things. To me it's no harder than saying "Hulk is strongest one there is" and then having Godzilla show up two games later and bench-press Mt. Fujii.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Yes... exactly... (and boy do I have to remember not to use real comic examples like Batman and Goku, as everyone becomes obsessed with those characters, and miss the point that I was just using those archetypes as an example... yeesshh...)

 

I like what you have here... so as some above brought up... lets bring metagame issues into it. I have two players who both have "concepts" of their character being "the best martial artist around" and one makes a Shang-Chi type (example folks... don't start quoting Master of Kung Fu issues now) and another makes "Fist Of the Whirlwind" who has focused his ki to such an extent he can walk on air (fly, superleap) hit men by hitting the air toward them (energy blast), and move like the wind (desolid, or force field).

 

Now the first guy is all in the mode of the western idea of human fighter... but he is TOTALLY outclassed by the second guy in terms of power. The first guy can't justify (and yes, I very much control the amount of damage a character can do, based on their concept in my games) more than seven to 9 dice of damage with maybe find weakness... while the other guy could essentially justify massive energy blasts of 15-20 d6... 30 pt FF, etc. Both built on 350 points, but one clearly superior to the other... and thus you are shafting an entire genre character concept.

 

In the end, I think that is my problem. The two genres are in conflict... trying to meld them in a consistent manner shows the flaws in the genre concepts of both... and only one wins out in a game of comparison. So why would you ever play the human level "martial master" unless you just enjoy being the underpowered player on the team?

 

Really, this is more of a philosophical discussion of the mixing of genres, and how it points out the inconsistencies and flaws of the genres, more than making them enjoyable to play. But that may just be me...

Oh sure, if you put it that way.

 

But to listen to some, it seems the low powered human martial artist is probably more popular than playing Ken & Ryu in spandex.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

If they both claim to be the best, have them fight it out

I know, I'm not helping.

 

Actually that's exactly my point. If you did have them fight it out... using just those skills/powers defined as "learned through intense martial arts training" then Fist of the WW dude is going to win 99 times out of 100. Super Chi, who can errect 30/30 force fields of chi is going to win. While the "realistic" martial artist is sitting their going "that's not martial arts, that is super powers!"

 

So what you have is the interstingly blurred line between, when does skill/training/etc. make you non-human/superhuman as opposed to simply "the best a human can be."

 

I've actually used the "adept" concept in my games. By this I mean, that within the world, those who study superhumanity have categorized a subset as "adepts." These are people who display superhuman abilities (leaping, running, endurance, whatever) but upon any form of scientific testing, show absolutely no recognizable signs of metahumanity. No genetic differences, no altererd form or bizarre energy charges... nothing. They are an enigma as to how they achieve what is patently impossible for them to achieve.

 

To this end, I've basically said, "look... the best of the best have to break the human boundary. You can't be a 20 STR four SPD character and claim to be the best martial artist... because there are adepts out there with 25 STR and 7 SPDs and the like...) To this end, I've basically had to (for consistencies sake) fall on the side of the superhuman. By this I mean, if you want to play a Batman who is "the best" then he will have to be more than human... his stats will break NCM, skills will be bought as powers because they go beyond what any normal could achieve, etc.

 

It's frustrating, but it is another piece of the RPG crucible that shows how the internal consistency of the inspired source material (comics) is really crappy and makes no sense. RPGs have a way of testing genre convention, and most often finding it wanting.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

As to the chi powers thing, maybe that is a problem. But Karate Kid was the best even without them. I think you just have to give Karate Kid types an absolutely ridiculous amount of CV and damage classes. To Hell with justifying it.

 

He had chi but more in the real world sense then a wild wuxia sense. He also had a lot of find weakness... to point that he could punch through intertron. And running by the old AC DC to Hero conversion, and the first edition legion book for the DC heroes game KK had an 8 or 9 speed (I don't recall) damage in the 20-24 range and a CV int the high teens, low twenties range. I still remember when Blackcat (the PC that is my avatar) hit those kind of numbers after 10 years or so in play, as she was modeled after KK to some extent.

 

 

As to the orignal question, the way I handled such things in my game.. "regular" chi which could do superhuman things but still be in the sortof "normal human" template - targeting hearing, extra damage increased perception anyone could do with training - You could see Cap, Bats, Shiva, Badger do these sort of things.

The hover in the air, shooting energy blasts out of the hands over the top thing was also chi - but only from people who are reincarnated (not everyone was) and so they had lifetime after lifetime to develope thier chi and thus it was much more superhuman and obvious.

Not a solution that would neccisarily work in other games but it did in mine.

 

And KK could take down either one (Bats or Goku).

[Haerandir]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Now the first guy is all in the mode of the western idea of human fighter... but he is TOTALLY outclassed by the second guy in terms of power. The first guy can't justify (and yes, I very much control the amount of damage a character can do, based on their concept in my games) more than seven to 9 dice of damage with maybe find weakness... while the other guy could essentially justify massive energy blasts of 15-20 d6... 30 pt FF, etc. Both built on 350 points, but one clearly superior to the other... and thus you are shafting an entire genre character concept.

 

In the end, I think that is my problem. The two genres are in conflict... trying to meld them in a consistent manner shows the flaws in the genre concepts of both... and only one wins out in a game of comparison. So why would you ever play the human level "martial master" unless you just enjoy being the underpowered player on the team?

 

I suppose at that point, the trick is to impose some meaningful limitations on Fist of the Whirlwind that make sense in-genre. I mean, just because he 'has mastered his Chi' doesn't have to mean that his body can hold, exert or project any more energy than a normal human can. Is Chi necessarily more efficient than muscle-power? That sounds like a GM call to me. If 7-9 DC's are the most you can get out of your body using muscles and skill, then maybe that's the most you can get out of your body using Chi energy (which also originates in the body). Are there no drawbacks to using it? If not, then why doesn't everyone use it? Maybe you only have so much Chi in your body, and slinging it around instead of maintaining a balanced flow can be harmful. If Fist of the Whirlwind takes 6d6 Stun every time he throws his 12d6 Chi Whirlwind Strike (from over-exerting his Chi), he'll be falling back on his 'ordinary' MA skills all the time, and it would certainly explain why someone from one of the more mystical/philosophical/internal traditions would spurn the practice.

 

Do you allow non-powered Martial Artists in your campaign to have speed 6, DEX 23, STR 25, etc? Do you force them to pay double for exceeding NCM? If not, then why shouldn't they be able to hit 10 or 12 DC's with a combination of physical fitness and skill? Putatively, at least, that's the original motivation behind including the Martial Arts mechanics in Champions/Hero in the first place. To allow "I'm just a guy who knows Martial Arts" to compete on the level of "I'm a mutant who can shoot laser beams from my eyes".

 

If you define some relative advantages and limitations for the two schools of martial arts you could not only create the justification for the continued existence of 'pure' martial artists in your game, but also enrich the background of the campaign world, by creating competing schools of thought on super-powered martial arts (perhaps reminiscent of the existing philosophical and technical differences between 'hard' and 'soft' martial arts styles), which could in turn create story ideas, background hooks, rivalries between PCs & NPCs, and so on.

 

See, now you have me working out a whole new world background, to go with all the others on my Scrapheap of Game World Design.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Batman and Goku are at totally different power levels. To me that is like saying that you have to reconcile the Hulk to Luke Cage. They are both bricks, but they are not even close in raw power. Daredevil, Batman, Captain America and others are very skilled combatants, but they have not gone to the next level of study.

 

You can see hints of this in Miller's Daredevil when he could not perform some of the the stunts that Stick and his other acolytes could. In Champions terms, his points were spent in other areas.

 

I can make the case that Batman has some level of chi powers. He regularly does things that mortal men, even Olympic level athletes cannot. His strength of will and focus are superhuman, even if he cannot fire enegry blasts.

 

The old Karate Kid is the same thing as the Luke Cage/Hulk argument. He was approaching Superman power levels. Alternately, he may have had similar points to Batman, but he spent them in different areas.

[Maelstrom]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I built my villain "Nihilist" as a martial artist with no maneuvers. At first. What she had was Transfer, with the limitation "Technique that was just used against her." She would introduce herself as "The Greatest Martial Artist in the World," rather hesitantly, and then as she threw the first, standard, punch, immediately be in possession of the other martial artist's best block -- which he no longer had. If there are two or more martial artists in the party, they would soon be reduced to fighting with simple punches and blocks against their most carefully crafted maneuvers . . .

[assault]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Hmm... in my game world...

 

20 STR is common enough for non-powered superheroes. That's 4d6 damage.

Offensive Strike gives +4d6 damage. That's 8d6 so far.

 

The question then becomes how many extra Damage Classes are you willing to permit a character to buy? Personally, I'll go as far as 5 for a serious Master. 2-4 is more normal for a martial artist PC.

 

Going with 5 in this case gives us 13d6.

 

How about a weapon? Some kind of stick might allow a character to justify another 3d6, bringing us up to 16d6.

 

That's pretty extreme, but this character is still nominally a normal human, and bought according to the rules...

 

Let's push it a bit, and make them not _quite_ human, and go with 30 Str. And, let's face it, if they are the world's absolute best martial artist, they could even go with another couple of Damage Classes.

 

That gets us up to 20d6. Of course, this character has probably spent a few decades or centuries in a Lost City in the Himalayas, but he or she is a non-Chi oriented martial artist who can punch out a tank.

 

And if she wants to buy some Chi powers: are you going to argue?

 

The point of all this is that there can be a zone where the non-Chi characters and the Chi-powered ones can meaningfully compete.

 

In reality, I would never make Batman the world's greatest martial artist. He's not focussed enough on the single set of skills, and instead is prone to waste his time studying how to be a detective or a scientist.

 

Another aspect of it all is that Chi-powers are related to certain systems of mysticism. Without those mystical aspects of the study of martial arts, you are unlikely to be able to wield Chi-abilities.

 

This is a bit like saying that if you study the world without studying mysticism, you may be able to become the world's greatest scientist, but never a magician.

 

Of course in the latter case, if you study both, you end up as Victor Von Doom.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Hmm... in my game world...

 

20 STR is common enough for non-powered superheroes. That's 4d6 damage.

Offensive Strike gives +4d6 damage. That's 8d6 so far.

 

The question then becomes how many extra Damage Classes are you willing to permit a character to buy? Personally, I'll go as far as 5 for a serious Master. 2-4 is more normal for a martial artist PC.

 

Going with 5 in this case gives us 13d6.

 

How about a weapon? Some kind of stick might allow a character to justify another 3d6, bringing us up to 16d6.

 

That's pretty extreme, but this character is still nominally a normal human, and bought according to the rules...

 

Let's push it a bit, and make them not _quite_ human, and go with 30 Str. And, let's face it, if they are the world's absolute best martial artist, they could even go with another couple of Damage Classes.

 

That gets us up to 20d6. Of course, this character has probably spent a few decades or centuries in a Lost City in the Himalayas, but he or she is a non-Chi oriented martial artist who can punch out a tank.

 

And if she wants to buy some Chi powers: are you going to argue?

 

The point of all this is that there can be a zone where the non-Chi characters and the Chi-powered ones can meaningfully compete.

 

In reality, I would never make Batman the world's greatest martial artist. He's not focussed enough on the single set of skills, and instead is prone to waste his time studying how to be a detective or a scientist.

 

Another aspect of it all is that Chi-powers are related to certain systems of mysticism. Without those mystical aspects of the study of martial arts, you are unlikely to be able to wield Chi-abilities.

 

This is a bit like saying that if you study the world without studying mysticism, you may be able to become the world's greatest scientist, but never a magician.

 

Of course in the latter case, if you study both, you end up as Victor Von Doom.

 

Basic house rules limit all Martial Damage Classes to 2 or less. If you want to do more damage, you are venturing into superhuman abilities, and you have to buy powers (Hand attacks, HKAs, EBs, whatever) to increase damage. Thus there is a clear limit to what "normal martial arts" can attain, in my world... and mystic martial arts are a whole 'nother ball of wax.

 

(While I love martial arts, and the basic concepts behind how Hero system runs 'em, I think they are close to one of the most broken powers/skill sets in the game. Any time you are stacking damage on to STR damage, with the possibility of weapon damage or power damage on top of that, you escalate into the ridiculous very quickly. Hand Attacks, HKAs and Martial Arts are, IMO, the most unbalanced, open-to-abuse, abilities in Hero... which is a shame, because they are also the most basic and cool in concept for the kind of highly detailed HtH combat I love, that Hero does better than any other game I know.)