DnD's Spiked Chain

[arcady]

Thoughts on this conversion:

 

s50.00

War Chain: (Total: 47 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (+1 DC / +6.25 STR > Str Min.), (0 END; +1/2); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 13 (-1/2), -1 OCV, (-1/2), Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 10) plus Stretching 1", (0 END; +1/2); OAF (-1), No Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) plus Penalty Skill Levels: +2 vs. when short or medium weapon gets 'inside' with a single attack (Real Cost: 3) [Notes: Body 4 Def 4_Flail Mnvr Long Reach]

4.00kg

 

I'm thinking stretch to 1" to get the reach, and the Penalty Skill Levels so it can be just as good as a medium or short weapon when they close in.

 

Because of the stretching, I presume I do not need indirect to get around shields, correct?

 

 

Players of DnD know that this weapon is the '800 pound gorilla' of the DnD weapon list - when it shows up in my DnD game, even the 60HP barbarian stands clear.

 

It's nasty, and in DnD it's the top of the core-rules heap, mostly due to it's flexible reach. Of course, all Hero weapons have flexible reach, and there are no AoO rules, so the weapon would not dominate as much in Fantasy Hero, but it is still strong, pricey, and heavy.

 

Killershrike made a version on his website, but he didn't list the mechanics used to build, nor give it a cost or weight. I've also gone in for 1 1/2d6 rather 1d6+1 because I personally believe 2d4 is better than 1d8 - but flip it either way.

 

My big question is: Did I do the penalty skill right?

 

I used a 1 1/2 point penalty skill level, but should I have used a 3 or 5 instead?

[GamePhil]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

I used a 1 1/2 point penalty skill level, but should I have used a 3 or 5 instead?

 

As long as you didn't apply any Limitations to it, it looks fine. If you did, you need to use a higher point PSL, even if it still only applies to the Chain (there is a minimum point level you can use and get the benefit of the Limitation).

 

Hmm, getting bleary. If that didn't make sense, I'm sure someone will be along more coherent than I.

[Outsider]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Spiked Chain? And it is markedly better than other weapons? You'd think that it would have been in more prominent use, historically!

[keithcurtis]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Interesting. I haven't played D&D since 1st edition AD&D. What exactly is the spiked chain, and what are the mechanics you entioned that make it so popular?

 

Keith "Mr. Curious" Curtis

[Theron]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Picture a long chain with a bunch of blades on each end. In D&D terms it's got extra reach (so you can attack without getting hit back) and does pretty hellacious damage right out of the box (it gets even nastier with proficiencies and the like). In the hands of a berserk barbarian type, it's rather terrifying.

 

Realistically, the weapon would probably present more of a danger to the wielder than his enemies, but it's D&D.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Picture a long chain with a bunch of blades on each end. In D&D terms it's got extra reach (so you can attack without getting hit back) and does pretty hellacious damage right out of the box (it gets even nastier with proficiencies and the like). In the hands of a berserk barbarian type, it's rather terrifying.

 

Realistically, the weapon would probably present more of a danger to the wielder than his enemies, but it's D&D.

 

It's about as practical as the double bladed sword (also in the D&D books), which is to say way more high fantasy than practical reality. The big advantage it holds over other D&D weapons is that it's the only weapon that grants reach and can be used in close combat.

 

Like other reach weapons, it can get an atack of opportunity if someone without reach isn't careful (slow...) in closing. It does 2d4 damage (5 average). For those who want to compare weapons, I compare the heavy flail and the bastard sword 2 handed (martial weapon) to the spiked chain and the bastard sword one handed (exotic weapon proficiency).

 

The sword and flail do d10. The sword has a x2 critical on a 19-20 threat, and the flail either has the same, or is a 3x on a 20 (II don't recall). Both are two handed (used with a martial weapons proficiency). The flail gets a +2 bonus to disarm and can be used to trip.

 

The bastard sword may be used one handed if an exotic weapon proficiency is paid for. It keeps al the same stats.

 

The chain gets marginally reduced damage (2d4 vs 1d10; critical x2 on a 20 only) and remains a 2 handed weapon, but gains the reach advantage.

 

I haven't found this to be hugely unbabalancing, frankly. It has its advantages and its drawbacks. A higher DEX warrior with the feat alowing multiple attacks of opportunity benefits greatly from a spiked chain. Improved Critical is way nicer with the bastard sword.

[tesuji]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

the spiked chain also has the need for an exotic feat added in. My group found it less than desirable in normal use. The reach thing is nice, but not worth all the other drawbacks. A greatsword offers more bang fer buck.

[Theron]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

It's about as practical as the double bladed sword (also in the D&D books)' date=' which is to say way more high fantasy than practical reality. [/quote']

 

The one that really bothers me was the Gnome Pick. How do you use the damned thing without gutting yourself or poking out an eye?

 

I guess that's what Exotic Proficiencies are for.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

the spiked chain also has the need for an exotic feat added in. My group found it less than desirable in normal use. The reach thing is nice' date=' but not worth all the other drawbacks. A greatsword offers more bang fer buck.[/quote']

 

The EW feat is the reason I compare to a bastard sword. What do I get for my Feat? The ability to use a shield at the same time. Compared to the closest Martial weapon, the Heavy Flail, "what do I get for my feat" from the spiked chain is reach, and it's offset by slightly reduced damage.

[arcady]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Actually the spiked chain is a REAL weapon in Asia. It's in the Ultimate Martial Artist under several different names:

 

Kusari

Kusarigama

Kyogetsu Shoge

 

Manriki-Gusari

Suruchin

Kabit

Kusarifundo

Rante

 

Chain Whip (Bian)

Bian Tzu Chaing

 

 

So there are many people in the world who do know how to use it without hurting themselves.

 

The double sword of DnD is also from Asia, though I'd have to track down the name...

 

In DnD you put it in the hands of the 14 to 16 dex character who also has Combat Reflexes, and you're an AoO death machine, get weapon finesse, improved trip, whirlwind attack, defensive throw, hold the line, or knock-down (even when you account for the Sword and Fist errata) and it gets even worse.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

So there are many people in the world who do know how to use it without hurting themselves.

 

Hence, "exotic weapon proficiency"

 

The double sword of DnD is also from Asia, though I'd have to track down the name...

 

In DnD you put it in the hands of the 14 to 16 dex character who also has Combat Reflexes' date=' and you're an AoO death machine, get weapon finesse, improved trip, whirlwind attack, defensive throw, hold the line, or knock-down (even when you account for the Sword and Fist errata) and it gets even worse.[/quote']

 

16 DEX, 16 STR, Combat reflexes check

 

Weapon Finesse? Pass - STR covers it.

 

Improved Trip - check (3.5 makes this worthwhile)

WWA not so much - the rules say "all targets within 5'", so your reach doesn't help you (that's in the FAQ, IIRC)

 

You missed Improved Disarm. +2 from the chain, plus the bonus for size differential, makes this amazingly effective. "He's pulling a dagger! Why bother?"

[arcady]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Yes, thus the weapon is even more effective.

 

Weapon Finnesse is what you'd use in a point buy game. I run and only play in 28-point buy when I do/play DnD/d20, you won't have too many characters who can get both str and dex to the same heights.

 

Consider making a character who is a pit-fighter (FFGs Cityworks) or Gladiator (Kenzer's Kalamar Player's Guide) - two books used heavily by my groups which plays DnD mostly in urban settings and soley in the Kalamar world.

 

Both of those classes get an exotic weapon profiency for free, though they lack the feats of a fighter.

 

Consider a human fighter, who by level two has four feats...

 

You can build a very fast feat chain with this weapon, and the loss of one feat to get that flexible reach and benifits to tripping and disarming is well worth it.

 

If the spiked chain hasn't dominated your DnD game, it's only because your min-maxer hasn't played around with it yet. I got slapped by one in the first DnD3E game I ran, and ever since they've been the terror of my players whenever an NPC shows up with one.

 

 

In Fantasy Hero, it would be an uncomon weapon profiency. It loses a lot from the lack of AoO rules, but even built to the essential concept it can be quite powerful. I plan to put most of the really nasty tricks for it (the feats) back in as a specialized martial art in my setting.

 

 

 

Just because I'm switching off of DnD in no way means I'm going to give up on the one thing that scares my players most. Unlike a dragon or a tarrasque, they know I will freely use this one against them any time I want.

 

Here's a fun one: take an orc and build him on 28 points, give him a level of barbarian so he can rage, and then enough fighter levels to get the core spiked chain feats. Give him a sorcerer ally to enlarge him, have him rage, and then send him at the PCs.

 

The reach becomes obscene, and you start dishing out damage like nobody's business...

 

Unfortunately I used that two sessions ago (minus the enlarge - which I used a few months ago on a lower level spiked chain orc), so I'll have to pull a different trick out of my bag tomorrow night.

 

Maybe a pack of mid level rogue/barbarian goblins... Or drow archers for a night attack (gotta love that 90 feet of darkvision and faerie fire to light up the PCs for your long range archers).

 

 

Anyway, Fantasy Hero plays out differently, and I think I mostly captured what the weapon should do (rather than what it does specifically in DnD). The nice thing about Fantasy Hero is that every warrior can also have a themed martial art to make them even more distinct, and so now I've got to design a martial art for this thing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Weapon Finnesse is what you'd use in a point buy game. I run and only play in 28-point buy when I do/play DnD/d20' date=' you won't have too many characters who can get both str and dex to the same heights.[/quote']

 

Actually, my spiked chain fighter is in a point buy game. His CHA and WIS aren't great, and he took until L8 to get the 16 DEX. I'll probably go STR from here on in, since more DEX won't boost his AC. DEX doesn't help your trip roll until you're the defender.

 

You can build a very fast feat chain with this weapon, and the loss of one feat to get that flexible reach and benifits to tripping and disarming is well worth it.

 

If the spiked chain hasn't dominated your DnD game, it's only because your min-maxer hasn't played around with it yet. I got slapped by one in the first DnD3E game I ran, and ever since they've been the terror of my players whenever an NPC shows up with one.

 

Trip and disarm can hurt, but they don't work every time. Discipolined fighters can get around the AoO. Half cover prevents an AoO, and can be provided by a teammate. Watching the hobgoblins move like chinese checkers is fun, but they very effectively get in to attack the guy with Reach.

 

Should Mr. Spiked Chain become a real problem DON'T CLOSE. He can either put the chain down to pick up a missile weapon and retaliate, he can close himself or he can get shot full of holes. Makes no difference to me. Once he's within 10', you make a 5' step to close with him and voila!

 

My fighter has finesse on his side. The barbarian with the greatsword and Power Attack chain has damage on his. It all works out.

 

However, I'll confess I don't play a min/max game so someone doing everything in his power to abuse it (like your 1 level of barbarian + a few fighter levels Orc) might make this a bigger pain to deal with. They're also more scary to players than monsters since you can't readily disarm a dragon.

 

But if I were really worried about spiked chains, I'd invest in those locking gauntlets. A -10 penalty cramps anyone's style.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Players of DnD know that this weapon is the '800 pound gorilla' of the DnD weapon list - when it shows up in my DnD game' date=' even the 60HP barbarian stands clear. [/quote']

 

The common wisdom around here is that it's broken. Everyone I play with, in real life and in PBEMs, either puts it use under heavy scrutiny or disallows it entirely (typically by replacing it with something on the order of a kusari-gama).

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Interesting. I haven't played D&D since 1st edition AD&D. What exactly is the spiked chain' date=' and what are the mechanics you entioned that make it so popular?[/quote']

 

The problem is not the weapon itself, but how it interacts with other game mechanics. In D&D, there is a mechanic called "attack of opportunity" -- basically, if you pass through a hex "threatened by" another character, they get a free attack. A character swinging a chain around threatens a lot of hexes.

 

There are also various Feats (think Talents) which provide reasonable benefits under normal circumstances, but which provide disproportionate advantages when combined specifically with a spiked chain.

 

There are also a few Feats which ameliorate the (few) disadvantages of the weapon, which just make it worse.

 

In Hero System, the equivalent would be a mentalist with N-Ray vision and Desolidification. (Which I have done, incidentally, but only as an NPC -- Egomania. Boy oh boy, did the PCs hate him.)

[arcady]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Hopefully the Fantasy Hero version I built above, while still nasty, is not 'broken.' But I'll probably not really know that until I get it into play.

 

 

Oh, and having had my character two campaigns ago be an archer I agree that a missile weapon negates the issue - but archers do that to everybody. If the spiked chain is the 800 pound gorilla, the well 'feated out' archer is the orange colored frog - everyone thinks she's harmless, until it's too late.

 

 

The last spiked chain NPC I used on the PCs had a Mighty Bow rated out to +8 Str, for when he was at his worst and raging. It was built around the 'Iron Bow' - a dwarven weapon in Kalar that does 1d10 but only has 40' range incriments. Not that he missed on the two shots he made with it. The fun thing about a mighty bow is that the players at first drool over the bonus, until they realize how much strength they need to use it, and that it does them no good against magical creatures...

[cutsleeve]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

a chain flail would be just as effective as the spiked chain. not all those things where short. You often see specimens with 2 foot stick three 3 foot sections of chain with big spikey balls on the end.

 

In truth the vast majority of those asian weapons you mentioned had the advantage of also having a regular melee wepaon attached to them such as a spear a blade a sickle or something along those lines. One problem with chains used weapons by themselves is someone who is willing to risk an arm could defeat them.

 

A skilled person could employ them nicely. Just hope that the person your facing isnt as skilled in the weapon he uses.

[AlHazred]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

As long as you didn't apply any Limitations to it' date=' it looks fine. If you did, you need to use a higher point PSL, even if it still only applies to the Chain (there is a minimum point level you can use and get the benefit of the Limitation).[/quote']

You are applying a Limitation to the Levels: OAF (and possibly Independent and Real Weapon). So, you need to buy them as 3-point Levels.

[GamePhil]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

You are applying a Limitation to the Levels: OAF (and possibly Independent and Real Weapon). So' date=' you need to buy them as 3-point Levels.[/quote']

 

Actually, he isn't applying a Limitation to the Levels, so they are perfectly legal as they are.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Given that the Spiked Chain Trip Monkey is my preferred D&D fighter build, I feel compelled to chime in.

 

One of the main reasons I like it is because it's one of the few ways to do a support/tactical fighter in D&D (whereas the typical fighter is brute-force-and-ignorance greatsword beatstick). It just has more STYLE. What you really need is ...

 

Combat Reflexes (multiple Attacks of Opportunity in a round)

Improved Trip (bonus to trip)

Stand Still (target must make a save for stop its movement; the save is based on damage dealt, so anything that boosts your damage is helpful ... used for if you run into things like oozes that can't be tripped 'cause they got no legs.)

 

Basically, this lets you 'pin down' one or two opponents. You won't be doing a lot of damage, but unless the dice crap out on you, you can keep them pinned down pretty much indefinitely. While you're doing this, everybody else takes out the remaining foes, then comes and beats on the two guys you've had hitting the dirt for five rounds.

 

P.S. Ignore the picture of the Spiked Chain in the PHB. It's simply WRONG; there's a better picture in Complete Warrior; the chain is only spiked on one end, for about two-three feet of length.

[arcady]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Some of these things can be as long as 210cm - over 2 meters.

 

Consider this item:

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/013/009/index.html

 

I'm sure if I kept digging I could find a longer one. A combatant using one of these would probably be a whirl of motion - like a dancer.

 

And the idea that you would need to be 'more skilled' than your opponant shows a lack of real world fighting most likely. If you know your device you know your device.

 

The idea of just grab it way has an issue when the other end suddenly comes swinging around to get you. Using this you would likely be constantly adjusting where you are holding it fromg, with a normal base in the center for the longer variety or on an end for the shorter ones. Having worked with the Sai myself, I know that the idea of adjusting how you hold a weapon only holds back the beginners - once you get comfortable with it becomes a feature and a tool you can use against an equally skilled opponant with a lex flexible weapon.

 

Visualizing a wielder of this weapon, I'm thinking of the scene in Kill Bill vol 1 with the somewhat overgrown chain. Note how she shifts around a lot, and keeps switching what part of the chain she uses. Having watched weapons kung fu people in action (when I was younger my teacher was a man who's specialty was something of a weapons fighting - dance thing. I didn't study long enough to learn beyond the Sai and how to hold a few of the swords, but I saw him demo and practice enough to have a visual memory of what it looks like), they're like dancers and they do keep holding their weapons in new ways. There's a constant feinting game going on, and I can see these chains being very deadly and very handy at combinations of snare, trip, bash - in assorted orders. If you grabbed one end of it, you would only give me an advantage if I knew what I was doing.

 

I'm not saying I can do all this, but I've seen people with the training, and I suspect that if they worked with me for a while they could train me, and, that after I got used to the different manner of moving it would take me no longer to go from 'average to good' than it would with a sword. All that is really harder is going from 'novice to average'.

 

Let's go back to this again for a second:

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/013/009/index.html

Make those spiked balls on the end - make no mistake, just because it isn't spiked doesn't mean a novice won't kill themselves if they hit their own head with it... and thus by contrast that an expert could not work with the spikes (as some of the other weapons found posses).

[Markdoc]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

My only problem with the weapon is the idea that it does the same damage as a battle axe. As noted, real life chain weapons were used to trip and or immobilise, or to bludgeon unarmoured opponents. There were a few (the Chinese "soft hammer" for example) are basically a weight on a chain - that might do some more damage - but the weight imbalance greatly restricts how it can be used compared to the Manriki/Kusari type weapons.

 

cheers, Mark

[arcady]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

I think the idea is that once you start spiking it, you've got a more flexible flail.

 

Not all the real ones where tripping devices - some did indeed have all the blades and other heavy sharp pointy things on them.

 

How lethal that is is open for debate I suppose. Being longer it will take longer to move around than a flail, but it might also build up more momentum.

 

It likely is overpowerful in DnD - simply because it abuses the weakpoints of that game's melee combat system. I may have to adjust the verion I made here to be less damaging, or (it's possible) more damaging after I've seen it in play. Right now I -think- it will balance better than the DnD ones does.

 

I've got two competing interests in me over this:

1. I'd like to look at it at least as realisticly as we look at the existing weapons (marginal).
2. I have a dramatic interest in using it, and that is why I wish to convert it over. I want to keep its dramatic purpose intact.

 

Good call on the penalty skill levels. They should be the more expensive version with OAF added in... I'll adjust that later.

[proditor]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

I do have to agree that the ole spiked chain is the beast from the east in DnD. I've seen two horrific builds, one pure dex that also added in the two weapon elements eventually, and the other surprisingly, pure raw strength following the more traditional PA/Cleave/Great Cleave route. That was a pretty effective build as well. Honestly, unless you just take general non-combat feats, it's kinda hard NOT to be a beast with a Spiked Chain in DnD.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

I do have to agree that the ole spiked chain is the beast from the east in DnD. I've seen two horrific builds' date=' one pure dex that also added in the two weapon elements eventually, and the other surprisingly, pure raw strength following the more traditional PA/Cleave/Great Cleave route. That was a pretty effective build as well. Honestly, unless you just take general non-combat feats, it's kinda hard NOT to be a beast with a Spiked Chain in DnD.[/quote']

 

My simple question is whether it was significantly more powerful than, say, a guy with a one handed Bastard Sword, or a Greatsword and an extra Feat, instead, and why? Frankly, if I had one hand free, I'd be on the lookout for a large shield, enchanted as heavily as possible, to reduce the damage I take.