DnD's Spiked Chain

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

My only problem with the weapon is the idea that it does the same damage as a battle axe.

 

That's the crux of it: it's an Area Effect Battle Axe, that can be used to trip and disarm people at range, in a game system that gives you an extra attack against anyone who moves through a space you "threaten". If you drop the damage down to something sane, and possibly modify its (Hero-speak) CV modifiers, it's not unreasonable. It becomes, in fact, something like a kusari-gama, mechanically speaking.

[arcady]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

However if you take a 180-210cm Kusari-Gama and put razor blades along the last 20-30cm of each end, and then a spiked 3-6 kg ball on each of the ends...

 

Does it deserve more damage?

 

Certainly, a novice might cut themselves on those blades, but an expert wouldn't anymore than a chef with a few weeks training no longer statistically-speaking cuts their own fingers when dicing onions. And even the novice could solve the issue with a mailed glove.

 

Nor say, anymore than real world users of the suruchin hit themselves in the head with it...

 

It would be nice to find a master of one of these real world weapons and see what they thought of the DnD style of spiked chain.

[Outsider]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Heck, if I added not just extra razor blades and spiked balls, but hung a dead cat from it too, it might deserve even more damage!

 

On the other hand...adding extra bits and weight to a weapon might just make it heavy/slow, make it clumsy/unbalanced, and make it difficult to handle properly too.

 

Did anyone here see "Shanghai Noon"? There was a scene in that where Jackie Chan's character used an improvised chain & weight weapon (well, rope and horseshoe), and the way he used it would not lend itself to a razor covered chain.

[Markdoc]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Sure, in real life the chain weapons didn't have spikes or blades on them, because you needed to be able to slide your hand along the chain or grab it, to make efficient use of them.

 

Likewise, if you added heavy spiked balls to the end you end up with a clumsy flail with a really long chain. We know again that such things existed, but never became popular - they're not as accurate or fast as a real flail, probably do less damage on that account and they would certainly be as dangerous as all hell. Even regular flails, in which the chain is shorter than the handle so you can't accidently crush your own hand - were regarded as dangerous to bot the user and his companions.

 

But as I understand it, we're not talking about real life . So given those caveats, the way the weapon is written up seems reasonable. I assume that most players will learn the WF ASAP and equip themselves with spiked chains, if the GM allows it though

 

cheers, Mark

[badger3k]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Thoughts on this conversion:

 

s50.00

War Chain: (Total: 47 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (+1 DC / +6.25 STR > Str Min.), (0 END; +1/2); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 13 (-1/2), -1 OCV, (-1/2), Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 10) plus Stretching 1", (0 END; +1/2); OAF (-1), No Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) plus Penalty Skill Levels: +2 vs. when short or medium weapon gets 'inside' with a single attack (Real Cost: 3) [Notes: Body 4 Def 4_Flail Mnvr Long Reach]

4.00kg

 

I'm thinking stretch to 1" to get the reach, and the Penalty Skill Levels so it can be just as good as a medium or short weapon when they close in.

 

Because of the stretching, I presume I do not need indirect to get around shields, correct?

 

 

Players of DnD know that this weapon is the '800 pound gorilla' of the DnD weapon list - when it shows up in my DnD game, even the 60HP barbarian stands clear.

 

It's nasty, and in DnD it's the top of the core-rules heap, mostly due to it's flexible reach. Of course, all Hero weapons have flexible reach, and there are no AoO rules, so the weapon would not dominate as much in Fantasy Hero, but it is still strong, pricey, and heavy.

 

Killershrike made a version on his website, but he didn't list the mechanics used to build, nor give it a cost or weight. I've also gone in for 1 1/2d6 rather 1d6+1 because I personally believe 2d4 is better than 1d8 - but flip it either way.

 

My big question is: Did I do the penalty skill right?

 

I used a 1 1/2 point penalty skill level, but should I have used a 3 or 5 instead?

 

Why the penalty skill levels? What penalty is it supposed to apply to?

 

I'd add something for the disarm bonus (probably +1 or +2 CSL).

 

Never really used them in D&D. The culture wasn't there, for one thing, for the other, used it once, the character ended up a pincushion (after a magic missile barrage). To me, it is countered to easy to be the game-breaker that some think it is, well, that and the problem is, as stated, how it interacts with other rules. Added together, in the right situation and the right power-build, it can potentially be devestating, unless it is countered like my NPC was. As for real world, just ask a lot of bikers how effective a normal chain can be.

 

edit - whoops. In FH, the flail has the "flail maneuver" because it is bought with Indirect (at +1/4) not just the stretching. The stretching is more for straight line attacks rather than having indirect built in. You'd need indirect if you wanted a stretchy super (or monster) able to attack behind characters (unless you house rule it that way).

[arcady]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Just to dig up something old...

 

Because I'm going through my Hero designer prefabs for my players, and wanted to check this thread for notes...

 

 

The penalty skill levels stop the penalty you face when a shoter length weapon gets inside your reach. See page 186 of Fantasy Hero.

 

That was done to reflect that once you get in, the chain user only has to pull back and use less chain - which is no harder than using the longer length of chain due to the flexibility.

 

Oh, and stretching includes indirect for free, but has a limitation to remove that. So the weapon already has what it needs for the flail manuever.

 

 

As for countering the weapon in DnD - it takes a team of opponants to do that, and that in itself makes the weapin very effective. You become a disporportionate drain on the opposition resources - freeing up the rest of your own team for other actions.

 

And if you can be mobbed, you probably didn't take the right feats...

 

Anything that can get you without mobbing you can do the same to any other tactic (such as the magic missile comment), but again you force the hand of this - forcing those missile to go against you and not the others on your team, who are then freed up to focus elsewhere.

 

Put a spiked chain on -one- side of a DnD 3.x battle and it limits the other side's tactical choices more than other melee weapons do.

[keithcurtis]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Forgive the thread necromancy, but today's Order of the Stick was so apropos.

 

 

 

Keith "Swoosh! Swoosh! Spring! Swoosh!" Curtis

[Brother Jim]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

hee hee

 

 

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

thud !!!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Nice one.

 

As an aside, to resusicate the thread, here is how I define a few Chain weapons:

 

WEAPON DAMAGE STR MIN CONCEAL HIT MOD TYPE

War Chain 1 1/2D6 13 -2 -1

 

* +1 STUN Multiple

* +1 damage per die vs Plate & Scale Armors (up to DEF of Armor)

* +2 OCV with Disarm

* 2" of Stretching

* 2" of Swinging

* Requires two hands to use

* May be used to Grab 2 limbs

* +2 OCV vs Block attempts

 

Chain 1D6 8 -0 -1

 

* +1 STUN Multiple

* +1 damage per die vs Plate & Scale Armors (up to DEF of Armor)

* +1 Lightning Reflexes with self

* +2 OCV with Disarm

* 1" of Stretching

* 1" of Swinging

* Requires two hands to use

* May be used to Grab 2 limbs

* +2 OCV vs Block attempts

 

Light Chain 1/2D6 3 +2 -1

 

* +1 STUN Multiple

* +1 damage per die vs Plate & Scale Armors (up to DEF of Armor)

* +3 Lightning Reflexes with self

* +1 OCV with Disarm

* 1" of Stretching

* 1"of Swinging

* Requires two hands to use

* May be used to Grab 2 limbs

* +2 OCV vs Block attempts

 

 

 

 

from my variant weapons system:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeArmsArmament.shtml

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

+1 damage per die

 

What does this mean, exactly?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

What does this mean' date=' exactly?[/quote']

Exactly what it says.

 

* +1 damage per die vs Plate & Scale Armors (up to DEF of Armor)

 

So if you rolled 2d6 damage vs an opponent wearing Plate or Scale and the dice came up 3,4 you would add +2 (+1 per die) (up to the DEF of the Armor). So in this case you would do 9 BODY rather than 7 BODY.

 

There is a caveat listed on the actual chart however:

+X per die modifiers cannot exceed maximum damage possible on dice of effect.

 

So if you rolled 5,6 or 6,6 in the example case, the damage would still cap at 12 because the bonus damage can't exceed the maximum possible damage.

 

It's all explained here:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeArmsArmament.shtml

 

 

The purpose is to allow certain types of Weapons to work better vs certain types of Armor without increasing their effect in general.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Exactly what it says.

 

* +1 damage per die vs Plate & Scale Armors (up to DEF of Armor)

 

On the one hand, that's rather clunky and not consistent with how Hero System works. If you want to add two additional Damage Classes, subject to a Limitation, then you do just that:

 

+2d6 (or +1/2 d6 Killing), only versus rigid armor (-1/2)

 

Or, if the effect you really want is some form of Armor Piercing (which appears to be the case, judging from the Limitations on the extra damage), then simply add that Advantage to the weapon, with the Limitation "only vs. rigid armor (-1/4)" (-1/4 rather than -1/2, because that's not much a limitation for Armor Piercing -- rigid armor is the primary reason for having Armor Piercing).

 

"+1 damage per die" just isn't how Hero System does things (and for good reason). It's an interesting idea, but there's no need to make up a clunky new mechanic to replace existing, much more straightforward mechanics.

 

On the other hand, it's moot, because this is the opposite effect from what actually should happen when a flexible weapon is used against rigid armor. Weapons that spread their impact over an area (e.g., a chain) are generally less effective against rigid armor. Conversely, weapons that are more effective against rigid armor focus their impact in a very small area (e.g., the pointy side of all those pole arms with French names).

 

The purpose is to allow certain types of Weapons to work better vs certain types of Armor without increasing their effect in general.

 

As noted above, there are better ways to do that.

[Hierax]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

I agree with the point about flexible weapon vs. rigid armor. He's just sharing with us what he does in his campaign and perhaps the extra points are to represent the puncturing of the spikes on the chain. I'll leave it to Shrike to explain his own thing, but I like to see as many ways as possible to represent things.

 

Why not have a +x/die mechanic? Why not have a treat 1's as 2's, etc.?

 

The HERO System is supposed to be a Toolkit, so why be opposed to adding new Tools?

 

Personally, I think it's better to have more tools to choose from. I'd rather have tools and not use them than need them and not have them.

 

FWIW, the official Fantasy Hero uses something quite similar for Slashing weapons like axes (FH-5e.178) and I've adopted something like it myself. But as GMs we shouldn't need it to be official to be able to add new game mechanics to our games. Toolkits need tools.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Hierax----

 

Okay, there's nothing here to add to the conversation; inspired by today's order of the stick, I thought I'd try an 'attack of opportunity!'

 

All in good fun of course!

 

But keep in mind that tool _boxes_ need tools.

 

Tool kits are complete sets of tools in a handy canvas or blow-molded carrying case!

 

 

Again, all in good fun! Carry on!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

On the one hand, that's rather clunky and not consistent with how Hero System works. If you want to add two additional Damage Classes, subject to a Limitation, then you do just that:

 

+2d6 (or +1/2 d6 Killing), only versus rigid armor (-1/2)

 

Or, if the effect you really want is some form of Armor Piercing (which appears to be the case, judging from the Limitations on the extra damage), then simply add that Advantage to the weapon, with the Limitation "only vs. rigid armor (-1/4)" (-1/4 rather than -1/2, because that's not much a limitation for Armor Piercing -- rigid armor is the primary reason for having Armor Piercing).

 

"+1 damage per die" just isn't how Hero System does things (and for good reason). It's an interesting idea, but there's no need to make up a clunky new mechanic to replace existing, much more straightforward mechanics.

 

On the other hand, it's moot, because this is the opposite effect from what actually should happen when a flexible weapon is used against rigid armor. Weapons that spread their impact over an area (e.g., a chain) are generally less effective against rigid armor. Conversely, weapons that are more effective against rigid armor focus their impact in a very small area (e.g., the pointy side of all those pole arms with French names).

 

 

 

As noted above, there are better ways to do that.

 

 

A) I dont recall asking for your advice on the subject. If you don't like the material then don't use it.

 

Im somewhat familiar with how the HERO System "normally works", but thanks for explaining it all to me.

 

I made my alternate Weapons system precisely because of how "clunky" I think it is to design weapons with subtle difference using the normal method of basing a weapon around an HKA or HA build.

 

If I want a weapon that is a little better than another in highly limited scenarios, I dont want to have to model it as a Power Construct in excruciating detail. A minor variation shouldnt require a chunk of text that would choke a horse IMO, and it just gets tiresome to bother with.

 

C) The bonus vs rigid armor isnt being generated because the chain weapons are flexible; it is being generated because they do bashing damage, the force of which is still transmitted somewhat thru rigid armor even when they don't penetrate the surface of the armor.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

I agree with the point about flexible weapon vs. rigid armor. He's just sharing with us what he does in his campaign and perhaps the extra points are to represent the puncturing of the spikes on the chain. I'll leave it to Shrike to explain his own thing, but I like to see as many ways as possible to represent things.

 

Why not have a +x/die mechanic? Why not have a treat 1's as 2's, etc.?

 

The HERO System is supposed to be a Toolkit, so why be opposed to adding new Tools?

 

Personally, I think it's better to have more tools to choose from. I'd rather have tools and not use them than need them and not have them.

 

FWIW, the official Fantasy Hero uses something quite similar for Slashing weapons like axes (FH-5e.178) and I've adopted something like it myself. But as GMs we shouldn't need it to be official to be able to add new game mechanics to our games. Toolkits need tools.

 

 

 

Exactly. I've been a proponent of handling Fantasy weapons via alternate means for a long time, and Im happy to say that some of my ideas found their way into the current version of FH.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33311&postcount=193

 

 

 

The Variant system linked to previously is an extention of the Equal Damage and Bashing, Slashing, and Piercing Damage ideas mentioned in FH on page 177. It is intended to be a flexible and easy way to express various weapons by describing their traits and cumulatively combining them together to garner game effects. Like all modular/combinable systems it is somewhat abstracted; people that get their knickers in a twist about "realism" will have issues with it. But its fast, fun, easy, and my players had a good time with it.

 

Like all the content that I share, if you like it and can use it, great. If you dont like it, then dont use it and thats great too.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

+1: +1d6 (EB, RKA, Mind Control, what have you), Standard Effect, Inflicts 1 point rather than 3 (-2)

 

+2: +1d6 (EB, RKA, Mind Control, what have you), Standard Effect, Inflicts 2 points rather than 3 (-1/2)

 

+3: +1d6 (EB, RKA, Mind Control, what have you), Standard Effect

 

Mix and match as needed to suit the number of dice in question, and VOILA! Hero supports +X per die....

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

+1: +1d6 (EB, RKA, Mind Control, what have you), Standard Effect, Inflicts 1 point rather than 3 (-2)

 

+2: +1d6 (EB, RKA, Mind Control, what have you), Standard Effect, Inflicts 2 points rather than 3 (-1/2)

 

+3: +1d6 (EB, RKA, Mind Control, what have you), Standard Effect

 

Mix and match as needed to suit the number of dice in question, and VOILA! Hero supports +X per die....

[AlHazred]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

I've been considering using Piercing Points to design a "grittier" weapon table. Of course, being lazy, I'd rather find someone else who's done the work already...

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

why be opposed to adding new Tools?

 

New tools are fine. New tools which are both redundant and needlessly complex are not. It's simply not a good idea.

 

It is interesting, though.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

New tools are fine. New tools which are both redundant and needlessly complex are not. It's simply not a good idea.

 

It is interesting, though.

Do you really think you are in a position to tell me what is a good idea for me to pursue on my own time? If so, allow me to disabuse you of the notion.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Or' date=' if the effect you really want is some form of Armor Piercing (which appears to be the case, judging from the Limitations on the extra damage), then simply add that Advantage to the weapon, with the Limitation "only vs. rigid armor (-1/4)" (-1/4 rather than -1/2, because that's not much a limitation for Armor Piercing -- rigid armor is the primary reason for having Armor Piercing).[/quote']

 

I'm not so sure about your limitation, or the -1/2. It depends on how the limitation is defined. Is it "APonly if target wears rigid armor"? Maybe it's AP "only to halve defenses of Rigid armor". Could be it's AP "only to halve defenses of rigid armor for purposes of BOD damage". These are all limited to different extents, in my opinion.

 

It depends a lot on the game, too. How much is this limitation worth:

 

- in a High Fantasy, magic-heavy world where Force Field spells, Rings of Protection and enchanted non-rigid armor routinely grant defenses equivalent to that hot, heavy Plate Mail?

 

- in a Conan game rife with huge monsters that have naturally resistant defenses at a level similar to heavy armor?

 

- in a gritty, low fantasy game with no magic or monsters, where high rDEF comes only with use of rigid armor?

 

- in a low fantasy swashbuckliung game a la Three Musketeers, where rigid armor would get that DEF, but almost everyone has two or three levels of Combat Luck and disdains the use of Armor?

 

As noted above' date=' there are better ways to do that.[/quote']

 

Your "easier means" come with, as KS points out, a long body of text. You also focus on the mechanics, and limitation values, which (as the above indicates, at least to me) is pretty subjective anyway.

 

Simply adding +1 per die to certain types of armor seems to work just as well and write out a lot faster. It's also intuitively obvious. So what if figuring out how to build it (different limitations on standard effect) is a bit wierd? It's a heroic game, so I don't need to stat out my weapons anyway. Does it matter whether it's an extra +1 damage, a point of piercing, whatever? "Here's the effect desired, and here's how we get there" seems quite adequate to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Do you really think you are in a position to tell me what is a good idea for me to pursue on my own time? If so' date=' allow me to disabuse you of the notion.[/quote']

 

Apparently, telling you why your uses of your time are , or are not, good choices is perceived by bb to be a good use of his time

[Duke Bushido]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

I'll probably get noggined for this,

 

but I'd like to suggest stepping back for a minute for those folks who want to suggest that K Shrike is somehow wasting his time. I don't have a problem with folks pointing out that what he's got is not book-legal, and I don't imagine he does either, beyond the redundancy: it's a fair bet he already knew it wasn't book legal. He does it this way because it's better for what he's trying to do, and that's enough.

 

Now generally I don't think a grown man needs anyone batting for him, and that's not what I'm doing here. What I would like to do right here is point out that KS himself has been in a very long discussion of another not-book-legal build just this week, and I don't think at any time he ever called the other ideas anything more than 'not book legal.'

 

I think it would be proper to extend that same courtesy back to someone who has conducted himself quite civilly through what could have been a very ugly conversation.

 

Besides, his justifications for the changes he has made are excellent, and the aspect I find most intriguing is that they were not cost-driven, but model-driven. His changes, as I understand them (he's got a big site, and I didn't look through all of it) are all intended to more-perfectly model his setting, The most unusual aspect of his changes is that they really don't seem to affect game balance at all. Most of them amount to no more than one or two 'free' pips of BODY damage. But in a world with shields, clubs, archers, etc, I don't see a lot of bonus utility there.

 

I like the changes. I wouldn't use them myself as most of fantasy isn't that realism-driven. But I do like them, and I might try something similar for our group after one of us can swing Pulp Hero. I was inspired just a little bit.

 

Though I did learn that I don't want to tell anyone how we handle heroic-level campaigns here . Like Shrike, we were motivated by the quest for granularity, but we went in a different direction. But I don't want to be told that I'm wasting my time, so I'm keeping mum.

 

 

At any rate, sorry for the interruption. I just wanted to get off my chest the idea that chastising him personally is counter-productive.

 

And that I liked the ideas.

 

Continue, and feel free to ignore me. I'll just read quietly over here in the corner.

 

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Do you really think you are in a position to tell me what is a good idea for me to pursue on my own time?

 

Of course. I hope you would feel free to do so as well. People of good will can (and inevitably will) disagree on matters of game design. Sometimes others will see flaws in our design which we did not see, and our game will be improved by taking into account the fresh point of view. Other times we simply like different things, or have different design criteria. There's nothing wrong with that. We can still collaborate and profit from each other's work.

 

When your work is great and useful, I say so (and I have said so on more than one ocassion). When I think it can be improved, I say that too. I hope you would do the same. That's how peers interact. Please don't take my observations so personally.