DnD's Spiked Chain

[Trencher]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

The problem I have with the dnd spiked chain is that it does to much damage.

That is easly fixed though, 1t4 dam in dnd and 1d6 redused pen in hero system.

A chain is consisting of links that even if spiked would bend off the targets armour.

[arcady]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

I don't think DnD's chain does too much damage itself, I think that because DnD has the Attack of Opportunity rules it ends up delivering too many attacks and thus doing more damage than 'would be nice for game balance'.

 

That said, getting hit by a spinning spiked ball on the end of the chain should be a bone crushing as well as impaling moment. Flails are not nice things to get hit by, and they don't get any nicer for removing the stick handle part and having 'a chain and ball/blades on both ends'.

 

Flails, in my opinion, have more momentum behind them than swords of equivalent usage. That spiked-chain / kusari is even more so. it won't beat the cutting power or precision of a sword, and an opponant might be able to tangle you easier if they can get you wrapped around something, but it puts all of its weight on the end and that counts for something.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

The biggest issue I see with the spike chain is the number of hits in the 'attack of opportunity.' I don't know, never having hit anyone with a _spiked_ chain, but I know for a fact that if you hit them with a drive chain, the chain goes limp and you have to start the swing all over again.

 

I can't see the spiked chain doing any better. I mean, it's spiked. Suppose it lodges in a body? Then the dead guy has your weapon! Seriously, I've had to spend a minute getting a knife unstuck just dressing deer, and the deer certainly wasn't dodging (or breathing, for that matter).

 

Granted, I could be completely and totally wrong, also. I thought about some of the neat '-fu' stuff with ropes and chains, but even then, from what I see, as soon as you smack someone, you've got to regain momentum to the weapon before you can smack 'em again.

 

What am I missing?

[arcady]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

That's a problem with DnD's Attack of Opportunity rather than the chain itself.

 

The Attack of Opportunity mechanic is supposed to simulate getting the drop on something coming into or through your space without being prepared, but it gives you a free attack rather than an 'abort' of your upcoming attack, and as such it becomes the best way to get multiple attacks per round in DnD.

 

Rather than being a mechanic to get the drop on people, it becomes a mechanic to make you move faster...

 

If it worked as an 'abort next attack to take a swing on them before they can swing at you' it would balance in conceptually and not cause the DnD spiked chain to be an unbalanced weapon.

 

That said, a DnD combat round is six seconds long, and I know from my own past fighting experience that many entire fights can play out in full in that space of time with multiple hard strikes on both sides.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

I can't see the spiked chain doing any better. I mean, it's spiked. Suppose it lodges in a body? Then the dead guy has your weapon! Seriously, I've had to spend a minute getting a knife unstuck just dressing deer, and the deer certainly wasn't dodging (or breathing, for that matter).

 

Granted, I could be completely and totally wrong, also. I thought about some of the neat '-fu' stuff with ropes and chains, but even then, from what I see, as soon as you smack someone, you've got to regain momentum to the weapon before you can smack 'em again.

 

What am I missing?

 

As you note above, the possibility of a weapon lodging in a body isn'tlimited to the spiked chain. A rapier, a sword, a knife, a dagger, a spear, etc. etc. etc. also have this issue.

 

"Basic Role Playing", the old Chaosium engine, provided for critical hits which did double damage, but also lodged any sharp/impaling weapon in the target, requiring it be pulled free before it could be used again.

[Old Man]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Well, it's nice to see that AD&D still has basic game balance issues after thirty years.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

That's a problem with DnD's Attack of Opportunity rather than the chain itself.

 

gotcha.

 

That's what I was missing. Haven't done D&D since Basic, if you discount two attempts with an AD&D group (Lord knows _I_ do! )

 

 

 

That said' date=' a DnD combat round is six seconds long, and I know from my own past fighting experience that many entire fights can play out in full in that space of time with multiple hard strikes on both sides.[/quote']

 

Agreed, and for the same reasons. And drawing on that experience, I can attest that you aren't going to get more than two swings in six seconds, and it better be a fair short chain.

[Trencher]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Its true that the attack of opportunity can be a problem in dnd, that is why I dropped the rule that say you get attack of opportunity on the guy that charges you.

Charge is heroic and cool and should be rewarded in the rules (I give double dam on successful hit) not punished.

[Markdoc]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

I don't think DnD's chain does too much damage itself, I think that because DnD has the Attack of Opportunity rules it ends up delivering too many attacks and thus doing more damage than 'would be nice for game balance'.

 

That said, getting hit by a spinning spiked ball on the end of the chain should be a bone crushing as well as impaling moment. Flails are not nice things to get hit by, and they don't get any nicer for removing the stick handle part and having 'a chain and ball/blades on both ends'.

 

Flails, in my opinion, have more momentum behind them than swords of equivalent usage. That spiked-chain / kusari is even more so. it won't beat the cutting power or precision of a sword, and an opponant might be able to tangle you easier if they can get you wrapped around something, but it puts all of its weight on the end and that counts for something.

 

All of that's true - but it assumes you have a flail-sized head on your chain, whereas real life kusari-type weapons have a small weight about the same size as two doubled-up fingers. That's quite capable of breaking bones with a good swing (or even a good fast flick), but it ain't capable of denting much in the way of armour: it simply lacks the momentum. Not surprisingly though, it certainly existed (and was used) in the real world it was never a serious warrior's weapon - unlike the flail.

 

The reason is simple of course - if you did have a heavy weight on the end of a 2M chain, you'd get a weapon that was almost totally unmanageable. It's the same reason that real maces are small, heavy weapons rather than the giant 100 Kg types sported by Games Workshop figures. It's also the reason that real flails have a chain that is usually one or two links in length - so that the head doesn't reach your hand, when you are using it and you don't have it far away from your leverage point.

 

The only weapon I can think of that does have a heavy weight at the end of a long chain is the chinese "soft hammer" - much beloved by circus acrobats and generally unused by everyone else.

 

Having said that though my current Dee20 character is a barbarian/cleric with combat reflexes and cleave (great cleave in one or two adventures). Maybe I should get him a spiked chain...

 

cheers, Mark

[arcady]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Having been in a war museum and seen an actual several hundred year old 'used in the field to fend off Japanese raiders' 12 foot long sword, I'm not so ready to pass off exremes in weapons as something that couldn't be used effectively.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Forgive me for being totally off-topic for a moment,

 

but why is this thread suddenly so freakin' __wide_? It's driving me nuts!

[keithcurtis]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Old Man's Location field, which reads: "Location: hooligan x says, "I hope the next song stuck in your head is shorter, because the long line of text in your location f-s up my screen and i have to pan & scan any page you post on."

 

Keith "OM, is this necessary?" Curtis

[Old Man]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Okay, okay.

[keithcurtis]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

You a damn good joe.

 

Keith "Thanks" Curtis

[Duke Bushido]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Bless you both!

 

I didn't understand a word of it, Kieth, but thanks for the effort, and thanks to OM for fixing it!

 

Soooooooooo much betterrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

 

Ahhhhhhh....

[Old Man]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

It's funny, because on my browser, when I do that only my posts get stretched--everyone else's fit just fine.

[keithcurtis]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

What browser?

 

Keith "Safari" Curtis

[Trencher]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

It's funny' date=' because on my browser, when I do that only my posts get stretched--everyone else's fit just fine.[/quote']

Mine to, I was wondering why Old Mans posts were so long.

 

I just figured it was because he had gotten more longwinded with age.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

You should try figthing a half-Ogre with a spiked chain and a package of Feats designed to take full advantage of it.

 

I wonder how -- and if you would want to -- you would simulate this effect ion HERO.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Something built on Continuous AoE Radius, 0 Range, Selective, Gestures Throughout would be a pretty close approximation.

[Old Man]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Mine to' date=' I was wondering why Old Mans posts were so long. I just figured it was because he had gotten more longwinded with age.[/quote']

 

 

Silly man, age has nothing to do with it. I have always been this longwinded!

 

Browser is Safari, of course.

[dbcowboy]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

You should try figthing a half-Ogre with a spiked chain and a package of Feats designed to take full advantage of it.

 

I love that comic.

 

Returning to lurk-mode......NOW

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Flails' date=' in my opinion, have more momentum behind them than swords of equivalent usage. That spiked-chain / kusari is even more so.[/quote']

 

A flail has a handle (typically a long handle), which acts as a lever. This increases the kinetic energy of the object on the end of the chain (the atlatl operates on the same principle). The D&D style "spiked chain" weapon does not have this.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Well' date=' it's nice to see that AD&D still has basic game balance issues after thirty years.[/quote']

 

To be fair, the "attack of opportunity" mechanic is nowhere near that old. Most of AD&D's flaws were eliminated with D&D 3.0/3.5. The addition of "attacks of opportunity" was an interesting attempt to resolve the problem of people brazenly walking past each other in combat.

 

It's not how I would handle it (I would prefer something along the line of allowing an "abort", as Arcady suggested), and I'm not sure the problem it was created to address was really that much of a problem, but it's not intrinsically unplayable. My main complaint is that it's too complex: many, many people do not understand how "attackss of opportunity" are actually supposed to work (that cartoon with the half-ogre being a particularly good example -- although I agree it's amusing).

[Old Man]

Re: DnD's Spiked Chain

 

Maybe they should use the Free Attacks rules from IK? If you move into HtH range of an oponent and are in their attack arc, then move out of said range then they get a Free Attack on you.