Sketchpad Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Hiya Gang, I was wondering if people follow the package deals to the letter or have some neat house rules. I'm entertaining the idea of allowing the racial packages' disads not counting towards the actual disad totals ... has anyone toyed with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? That was actually how a lot of people ran packages back in the days of Danger International and such. It can make the character a lot more powerful, so you have to be careful unless you have a group that doesn't mind that. If you want balance, the easiest way to get it (aside from simply using the regular rules) is to make sure that the abilities possessed by the race and paid for by Disadvantages are either balanced by the Disad, or don't increase the race's power unduly. For example, creating a race of underground dwellers that have Spatial Awareness but are Blind isn't much of a problem. I tend to view this as a "zero sum" situation: the Spatial Awareness simply replaces sight. This is the most obvious example, and currently the only one I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? Racial disadvantages not counting against disadvantage totals gives non-humans an advantage. This is a pet peeve of mine, but most people seem to prefer non-humans anyway. On the other hand, racial package deals can lead to 'sameness'. I once tried to play a Half-Ogre Bard but felt most of the points were wasted on combat effectiveness (that I would not take advantage of) which left fewer points to pump into Bard related skills. None of this really applies if your group is not a bunch of Powergamers/Min-Maxers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Rose Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? Killer Shrike has, I believe, a rather elegant solution to this. Give the humans their own Package Deals. I recommend focussing on their strong points; adaptability, quick and broad (if not as deep as the longer-lived races) learning, things like that. This helps make things a little more even across the board. Remember, if you have a race that is "just as good as humans, only better at insert thing here", they should cost more; they're better, ferchrissake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? In my campaign I have the disadvantages from racial package deals not count towards the total and it seems ok. For the "normal" humans I gave them most of the skill enhancers and disadvantage based off their starting country. We have a wide mix races in my campaign and overall they seem well balanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? >>>Hiya Gang, I was wondering if people follow the package deals to the letter or have some neat house rules. I'm entertaining the idea of allowing the racial packages' disads not counting towards the actual disad totals ... has anyone toyed with this?<<< We did this in our first FH games: the experience was so traumatic that I'll never do it again. In general, the access of non-humans to cool stuff humans don't get (like Nightvision to one common example) means nonhumans are popular characters anyway. If you allow disad.s in racial packages NOT to count against total starting points then that's essentially the same as saying to players "You can have access to these extra cool powers, but only if you agree to have them discounted or for free." Unless the disadvantage is crippling, plenty players will take the extra points. After all, how many players use LESS than than their standard allocation of Disad.s? I have seen it happen, but it's rare. You can best judge for yourself how your players would respond to such an offer. Of course if you want a party where all the PCs are non-human, it's not a big deal. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legendsmiths Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? Disads should count towards the campaign limit for balance issues (as mentioned above). I would think most players would be open to having some of their 75 pts of disads chewed up by racial norms. That said, I ask you to consider how many of the disads are truely racial vs. cultural. If they are cultural, then humans should have them with the same frequency. If all dwarves are misers as a result of their culture, why don't humans have some similar disad. Perhaps the barbarians have a barbaric reputation, and the "romans" are nationalistic. I can't think of many races that have racial disads. Physical Limitations come to mind, but most "disads" could be built as negative powers (reduced running, leaping, taboo skills, negative skill levels) which means they aren't disads. My thought is if no amount of conditioning or exposure could eliminate the "disadvantage", then it probably should be considered part of the race's cost and not a separate disadvantage. I realize that is a somewhat subjective suggestion, but I think it works best. If a race has "no fine manipulators" (e.g. most animals) that should probably be part of their cost and not a disad. If the race is Greedy, that should be counted towards their disads. Separating the physicality of the race from the sociality of the race really helps to define them, as well as your world. If a dwarf were raised in the shire, using ME as an example, would the dwarf be grumpy and fixated on societies lost? Most likely not. He may long to understand his true heritage, but he is probably more concerned about the harvest than kicking the orcs out of Moria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jogger Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? I was considering putting racial bonuses and disadvantages on the side of the character sheet. Since racial transformation is actually common in this game, they aren't considered part of the actual character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? During the FH 2e/Hero 4th era, the groups that I ran were allowed to count the fiddly bits of the various package deals (racial and occupational) as outside the max disadvantages limit. These were the infamous Racial Characteristic Maxima reductions and package bonuses. Regular disadvantages, like "Hates Orcs", or "Watched by ..." did apply to the max disadvantages. This was mainly due to bookkeeping concerns, and rarely resulted in very many points for any character. With 5th, those bonuses went away, so it's a non-issue. YMMV, JoeG Now Playing: Alan Parsons, "Try Anything Once" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenstar Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? One nice "package deal" for Humans is to portray just what generalists they are: Give them one 10-point skill level as their deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? One nice "package deal" for Humans is to portray just what generalists they are: Give them one 10-point skill level as their deal. That is a simple and elegant solution. My campaign only allows humans access to martial arts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? I'm likely to go with standard rules and count the racial disads towards the max. Most of the races have only been given a social disad anyway. They're just as adaptable as humans, and most of them are indeed descended from humans. One race is subject to the whims and orders of dragons who know their true names, but other than that, I've not put in any real disads yet. Giving humans a package deal is too 'DnD' foe me. I do plan cultural package deals, but those are available to everyone - if you're a Naga merchant from an Imperial city, you've got the same cultural packages as a human merchant from the same Imperial city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Desmarais Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? Hiya Gang' date=' I was wondering if people follow the package deals to the letter or have some neat house rules. I'm entertaining the idea of allowing the racial packages' disads not counting towards the actual disad totals ... has anyone toyed with this?[/quote'] The closest I come to this is package disads don't count towards the disad category limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTemplar Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? I've actually found that my Human Players have enjoyed not having their points tied up by the Racial Package bonuses (which I do require if a player picks a non-human race - and they're straight from the HERO source materials as well.) Not having to spend the extra points on DEX for an Elf (for instance) gives them more points to use on CSL's, or Talents. Sorta gives them the freedom and flexibility that you'd expect from a Human. That said, the 10 point All-purpose skill level is a nice touch. *shrugs* Maybe I've just been extremely lucky with the people I've GM'ed for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? One thing I am doing is entering all the racial disadvantages in Hero Designer using Custom Disads so that they don't count against the 25 point limit per type, only the 75 point total limit. Unfortunately the author of Hero Designer doesn't seem to agree with letting people use the app to make custom types of disads, so I'm having to struggle with this concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Re: Package Disads House Rules? The closest I come to this is package disads don't count towards the disad category limit.By default in Hero designer they do count. The only way to turn that off is to remove all category limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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