How do you deal with difficult powers

[OddHat]

Looking at another thread made me think this one might be useful.

 

How do you deal with Characters that have powers that would short-circuit a scenario you want to run?

 

My own quick answers:

 

1) I try to build scenarios around the characters in order to avoid this. Sometimes you can't, but it's usually possible.

 

2) I don't give every NPC in the world Mental Defense because I've OKed a high powered mentalist. It's not in genre, and it's not fair to the player. I have asked players to tone down mentalists (and every other type of character) before play begins.

 

3) Sometimes I've asked players with scenario-breaking characters to build a back-up character, then let them play that back up in scenarios unsuited for the main character. If Harlequin's 90 point cosmic VPP would unbalance the game, he can handle a mission in space while the player takes the role of Paladin, Armor-Suited Jedi. For plaers that like having multiple characters, this works. For others it doesn't.

 

So, how do you usually handle the problem?

[ChuckB]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

Motion-sensors, guard dogs and soldiers filled with disinformation.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

Depends.

 

The multiple character-thing works if you have a prolific group. We've got one game running now that has a main and a reserve team, and we sometimes mix-n-match.

 

Sometimes you let them "break" the scenario. If they have a perfect power for the situation, sometimes it should help. The Telepath should have as much chance to shine as the guy with the 21- Security Systems or the guy with the 18d6 EB.

 

Sometimes what seems like a cakewalk can set them up for the unexpected. Telepathically finding the location of the VIPER base, our heroes descend, walking through agents, only to discover that the Nest Leader is actually an advanced android that Mechanon is controlling from behind the scenes. Better still if the telepath sneaks in alone, counting on his mental powers to keep him safe.

 

Change the focus. To continue with the telepath example - you may find out who the culprit is and exactly how he did it, but getting the actual proof to get him convicted could be tricky. Yeah, he did the crime, but all the evidence is in a crate of machine parts he sold to Destruga. Have fun getting it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

Usually, I'll just eat it and go on. I once had a bit, dramatic, climactic, timed battle for the end of a scenario ... but one of the PCs clipped that off through clever use of a power (they didn't get their third artifact), so, well ... I gave extra XP to the sneaky player.

 

I agree with the idea of never giving anybody more information than they absolutely need for a mission. Yes, they know that Dr. Decimation told them to invade the Millenium City Museum of Natural History and still Pharaoh AhmenChutzpah's left clavicle. Why? No clue. Time for some KS: Egyptian Mythology rolls or other form of research.

 

Whether or not I'll 'shaft' a player on a power depends on a number of factors. One ... do the villains have some cause to suspect the involvement of that particular hero/hero team? For example, if you know darn well that you're on The Avengers' turf, you make preparations for Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America. If you're in Metropolis, you do everything in your power to get your hands on a piece of Kryptonite. If you're about to start phase 3 of a plan, and the same heroes have showed up in phases 1 and 2, you can probably expect them to show up in phase 3.

 

Two, how much do the villains actually know? I've taken to using 3x5 cards to write down quick references to what the heroes do that's visible or detectable. Flying and power-blasts is obvious ... if someone on the villain's team has Mental Awareness, he'll probably tell everybody else that there's a telepath. If someone's being beaten up by someone he's not there, someone can probably turn invisible. And so on.

 

Three, what are the villains actually capable of doing? Few villains have the cash or expertise to quickly whip up a specific power inhibitor or radar goggles on a moment's notice. A villain with a gadget pool (or other VPP) is a PCs worst nightmare, especially if they have some way of divining a PC's weakness (usually requiring an enhanced sense, though some obvious ones like fire-water or fire-ice, lightning-metal, or the Kelvarite Syndrome are good guesses). Even if you're not going for the brute force Vulnerability method, specific defenses (Extra ED vs Fire, Mental Damage Shield) can be a real pain.

 

Oddly, I can usually rely on three of my four players to keep to the genre and not completely hose everything ... and the fourth one's idea of subtlety and role-playing is picking between the 12d6EB and the 8d6 AP EB.

[Chimpira]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

For me every campaign starts this way. In my head, as the players tell me their concepts, this mantra is repeated over and over again "Please don't make a mentalist. Please don't make a mentalist. PLEASE DON'T MAKE A MENTALIST." I never tell my players not to but that is seriously the only thing that I usually ever worry about. If they have a power that can short cut a scenerio I will usually have a back up planned or will concentrate on a lot of roleplaying before they get to the scenerio. Sometimes I find it is a good thing to let the players have an easy scenerio every once in a while. Then you drop the hammer.

[TheEmerged]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

Prevention is always worth more than Correction. Always. Period, end of sentence, and almost end of discussion

 

Before the players began making characters I emailed them a file detailing several important aspects of the world. That Mental Defense is a figured attribute and therefore *everybody* has at least a couple points of it, for example, was not news to them (I've used this for almost ten years now). That there was a campaign-world backlash against psionic powers because a mentalist almost conquerored the world in the 70's was something of news but not unexpected (we all agreed that having telepathic characters in the past almost ruined mysteries). The players responded with some rather creative character concepts that have been a blast to play with (even the one less-than-creative "bouncy boy, as an insect" concept).

 

Don't feel that just because it exists in the system or in the genre you have to allow it. Don't feel that just because the players want it means you should allow something that's going to ruin the game for the rest of the playerbase. And while you're at it, don't be a jerk just because you can make rules either. This is a game and it's meant to be fun -- if your rules don't make it fun or at least preserve fun, it shouldn't be a rule.

[Lightray]

I occasionally design scenarios that I know the PC's powers will short-circuit -- everyone should get to enjoy the feeling of having kewl powerz.

 

That said, I also occasionally design scenarios to specifically foil someone's powers. After having the telepath be overly effective a few too many times, I cooked up a PSI plot -- everybody had mental defense. After that, the player decided she needed to buy some martial arts, too.

 

I also turn the tables on the PCs -- exploiting scenario-breaking powers against them. After a few run-ins with Clairsentience and Telepathy, they've started thinking up countermeasures against those villains.

 

Those villains will eventually get to use the countermeasures dreamed up by the players against their PCs. I don't think they've thought out the ramifications if they develop artificial Mental Defense, for example -- eventually, someone is going to equip their goons with the device, and then one of the PCs' edges is in question.

[Magmarock]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

I usually build my scenarios to include the possibility that at least one of the PCs can short-circuit it. But, chances are, the PC's Player might not notice or recognize the fact he can short-circuit the game and so the rest of the games goes as otherwise planned.

 

While I do try to challange my group, I also do not like to punish my Players for having ingenuity, either in playing the game or in building their PCs.

 

 

Mags

[Doug McCrae]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

For me every campaign starts this way. In my head' date=' as the players tell me their concepts, this mantra is repeated over and over again "Please don't make a mentalist. Please don't make a mentalist. PLEASE DON'T MAKE A MENTALIST."[/quote']Why don't you just say "No mentalists"?

[Lightray]

You know, I was thinking that I'd never restrict players by saying "no mentalists", but realized that I did -- I'd told them "no invulnerable characters" and "no Wolverine wannabees". Mostly because of past problems with similar characters (boredom and annoyance, respectively).

 

I'm still not sure about limiting players' choice of character powers because they might short-circuit some scenarios. Seems to me that if someone wants to play a mentalist, it's because she may want to do that. I've got one player who encourages others to play a mentalist or detective type, just I think as a hedge against whodunnit-type scenarios. So I know that if I run one of those, I'll have to tailor it to the players' preferences.

[Chimpira]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

Why don't you just say "No mentalists"?

Because it might be a pain for some type of scenerios but I have no real good reason to disallow it beyond that it just means a little extra work for me.

[Silbeg]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

Looking at another thread made me think this one might be useful.

 

How do you deal with Characters that have powers that would short-circuit a scenario you want to run?

 

3) Sometimes I've asked players with scenario-breaking characters to build a back-up character, then let them play that back up in scenarios unsuited for the main character. If Harlequin's 90 point cosmic VPP would unbalance the game, he can handle a mission in space while the player takes the role of Paladin, Armor-Suited Jedi. For plaers that like having multiple characters, this works. For others it doesn't.

Good idea! I really like this solution, as it allows a player to have multiple characters (many like that), and also keeps a character that would destroy a scenario from dominating.

 

I would also suggest that the XP a character earns be assigned to both characters in this case, as the GM has decided which character to play.

[Silbeg]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

Why don't you just say "No mentalists"?

As has been stated before, there are ways of circumventing the game-breaking issues of having mentalist, least of which is to remember that the hired thugs, etc., will likely not know every detail of every plan!

In fact, they may know very little, and if the supervillains that have hired them happen to include a mentalist (or have contact with a mentalist-for-hire) they may have used powers like mind-control or transform to modify/wipe the thugs memories.

Other than that, if the heroes are operating in a situation where they will need things like search warrants and the like, they will probably not be able to present information garnered through mentalist powers, as this would definately be a breach of the suspects 5th amendment rights (as well as the 4th amendment protections against illegal search and seizure).

 

This won't stop them from using mental powers to get the leads, but they may need to use more conventional methods to back them up.

 

Never underestimate a player's ability to misinterpret the facts, or forget they have a power! Also, never underestimate their ability to screw up your finely wrought plans!

[ChuckB]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

For me every campaign starts this way. In my head' date=' as the players tell me their concepts, this mantra is repeated over and over again "Please don't make a mentalist. Please don't make a mentalist. PLEASE DON'T MAKE A MENTALIST." I never tell my players not to but that is seriously the only thing that I usually ever worry about. If they have a power that can short cut a scenerio I will usually have a back up planned or will concentrate on a lot of roleplaying before they get to the scenerio. Sometimes I find it is a good thing to let the players have an easy scenerio every once in a while. Then you drop the hammer.[/quote']

To this day, I've never had a player play a competent mentalist. Most mental powers require a certain amount of articulation and finesse and that has yet to happen. Vague questions, poorly worded commands and just about every one forgot they had Mental Illusions because mind control always seemed to have more punch.

[jackalope]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

First, I am fairly heavy-handed in the character creation process. I know what everyone is working on designing, so I encourage each player to specialize in some area, whiel still having a well rounded character. For example, two players in my current campaign wanted spy/espionage characters, so I encouraged one to focus on Black Ops style spy work, and the other to focus on Social Engineering spy stuff. That way the team has two spies to rely on, and while both have similiar skill sets, neither steps on the others toes. Unfortunately one of the players didn't like my direction, and decided to abandon the character.

 

Next, I design all my own scenarios around the characters. I make sure there is something for everyone. At least one baddie that ONLY the team Brick can handle, some mooks for everyone else to handle, some recon work for the spies, some detective work for the mentalist/detective, etc.

 

And finally, I make sure to include a fairly even mix of scenes in which a clever application of powers is called for, and scenes where powers aren't what's needed, but rather something more clever. But really, clever use of powers is a HUGE prt of the genre, so you HAVE to reward it.

 

But I NEVER give experience for an idea that short circuits the scenario. if everything is building to a clear climax, and a player comes up with a really clever way of short-circuiting that climax, and robbing the group of the dramatic conclusion - if through cleverness you cause an adventure to end with a whimper rather than a bang - no experience for you. Because you robbed everyone else of the experience of dramatic closure.

[Magmarock]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

But I NEVER give experience for an idea that short circuits the scenario. if everything is building to a clear climax' date=' and a player comes up with a really clever way of short-circuiting that climax, and robbing the group of the dramatic conclusion - if through cleverness you cause an adventure to end with a whimper rather than a bang - no experience for you. Because you robbed everyone else of the experience of dramatic closure.[/quote']

 

Gah! You are right, you are heavy handed, but not only with character creation... do you really punish your players for using their PC's powers in the most adventageous way?

 

Mags

[Metaphysician]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

To this day, I've never had a player play a competent mentalist. Most mental powers require a certain amount of articulation and finesse and that has yet to happen. Vague questions, poorly worded commands and just about every one forgot they had Mental Illusions because mind control always seemed to have more punch.

 

Yeah. IMHO, its the opposite. While most combat useful commands with mind control would impose penalties to the EGO + value needed, create a mental illusion of something the victim *wants* to see ( like, say, him triumphing over adversity and beating the villain ), and you may actually reduce the needed value to zap him into his own little mental world for a while. . .

[jackalope]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

Gah! You are right' date=' you are heavy handed, but not only with character creation... do you really punish your players for using their PC's powers in the most adventageous way? [/quote']

 

I never punish my players - what I'm talking about is how you go about rewarding them. I reward my players for doing things that are cool, interesting, innovative, and exciting. I don't consider it "advantageous" if a player figures out a clever way to short circuit the game and ruin the story that were trying to tell.

 

Here's an example of what I'm talking. Six players, one GM. Player A (Martial Artist) has a Hunted [350pt Martial Artist], and that Hunted has initiated a plot against Player A. The plot unfolds slowly, in a series of scenes, each more intense and dramatic than the next, including the death of a beloved DNPC/Contact/Follower. This has been building in game for months. Player A has been on the edge of his seat for weeks, waiting for the final big dramtic conclusion he knows is coming, when the villain gets his comeuppance. Player B, C, D, and E are not as invested in this plotline, but they're totally supporting Player A, and are also looking forward to hsi big scene, the final confrontation. Player F thinks Player A's character is boring, and is resentful of how much attention this plotline has been getting recently and wants more focus on his character.

 

At the same time as Player A's plotline, Player F (Mystic) has been involved in a plotline involving performing a number of tasks for a 3,000pt Godling NPC, which if successfully completed will earn him an unspecified boon (which is obviously quite valuable). This plotline comes to close before Player A's does (maybe by a session or two), and Player F gets his boon. The GM is expecting him to ask for something in particular, based on discussions he's had with the player. The time comes for Player F to ask for his boon, and rather than ask for what the GM was expecting, Player F says:

 

"Oh Mighty [3,000pt Godling NPC], there is but one think I request of you. My good friend, [Player A's Martial Artist], has been plagued these last few months by the wicked [350pt Martial Artist Hunter ], and I beseech thee to use thy awesome powers to eternally vanquish this foe by banishing him for all eternity to a dimension where he can cause no harm." (An act which it has already been establsihed that this Godling can, has, and will perform on evil-doers.)

 

See, now that's really, really clever, and very advantageous for Player F. If the Super Mage agrees, it accomplishes so many things for Player F. It resolves Player A's plotline, which means Player F doesn't have to sit through any more of it. Not only that, but Player F's character can spin it like he did Player A's character a favor!

 

Player A's jaw drops when Player F makes his announcement. He stares at the GM, with a look that says "You can't allow that!" Players B and C, sort of look at each other and squirm uncomfortablly, recognizing the rather ugly power play Player F has just made. Player D blurts out "Ah dammit, I was looking forward to that fight" saying what everyone is thinking. Player E is out on the porch talking to his girlfriend on his cell-phone (cause, you know, he's not in this scene).

 

Now, what exactly is the GM suppossed to do here?

 

He can let it happen, and reward the character for coming up with a very clever, very unexpected, entirely advantageous action that successfully ended an adventure in a way that is both dramatically uninteresting and lead to multiple hurt feelings. But I'd have a hard time calling that "Good GMing", not when 4 out of 6 players are upset at the result, and next week's session has to be entirely rewritten.

[jackalope]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

To this day' date=' I've never had a player play a competent mentalist. Most mental powers require a certain amount of articulation and finesse and that has yet to happen. Vague questions, poorly worded commands and just about every one forgot they had Mental Illusions because mind control always seemed to have more punch.[/quote']

 

One of my players made a mentalist who uses mental illusions almost exclusively. His favorite tactic is screwing with the heads of the Heavy Weapons agent in any Viper 5 man team, and making him think that he's shooting the heroes (but it's the villains), and his Viper mates are cheering him on (but they're actually yelling "You idiot, you just shot Ripper!"). It far funnier than just mind controlling the guy.

[Zed-F]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

To this day, I've never had a player play a competent mentalist. Most mental powers require a certain amount of articulation and finesse and that has yet to happen. Vague questions, poorly worded commands and just about every one forgot they had Mental Illusions because mind control always seemed to have more punch.

 

I suspect this is one area where a PBEM would be better suited than face-to-face. Having more time to think about exactly what you want to say can sometimes be a good thing.

[Chimpira]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

To this day, I've never had a player play a competent mentalist. Most mental powers require a certain amount of articulation and finesse and that has yet to happen. Vague questions, poorly worded commands and just about every one forgot they had Mental Illusions because mind control always seemed to have more punch.

I have had two players that were amazing at playing mentalists but they were also cautious about the overuse of their powers. They know that if they overuse something I take it upon myself to start doing the same. And they usually do not want me to do that.

[ChuckB]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

I suspect this is one area where a PBEM would be better suited than face-to-face. Having more time to think about exactly what you want to say can sometimes be a good thing.

I'm actually not a hardass about this stuff. The mind control command doesn't have to be worded like a contract nor does the illusion have to read like stage directions from a script. Mind Control and Mental Illusions both require a consistant level of creativity to be used effectively.

Truth be told, I'm probably one of the more mentalist-friendly GM's out there.

[OddHat]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

To this day, I've never had a player play a competent mentalist. Most mental powers require a certain amount of articulation and finesse and that has yet to happen. Vague questions, poorly worded commands and just about every one forgot they had Mental Illusions because mind control always seemed to have more punch.

 

I've had some very effective mentalists in my groups. I expect that the ages of the players and GMing style play a significant role in how well the mentalist is able to function.

 

Mental Paralysis in particular has won a large number of battles in my campaigns.

[Lightray]

I have had two players that were amazing at playing mentalists but they were also cautious about the overuse of their powers. They know that if they overuse something I take it upon myself to start doing the same. And they usually do not want me to do that.

I tend to do the same. I haven't had too much problems from the mentalist (who uses Mental Illusions usually). But the telekinetic guy has been very careful about his Dispel Knockback Does Knockback Double Knockback "force blast". He knows I'll start using it for the bad guys if he's too egregious with it. So far, he's limited the use to buying some time against heavy-hitter opponents when everyone needs a chance to recover or regroup.

[zornwil]

Re: How do you deal with difficult powers

 

I do, as aforementioned, tailor games to work around difficult powers, but also I usually ask the player to make something balancing it, often suggesting something that will fit my campaign. The best example was Dr. Time, who could travel through time; I asked him to have a Disad "Must uphold true timestream", the "true" timestream being the one his character developed into maturity in.