Hero System is Just Alright With Me

[DoctorItron]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

The only house rule in my current campaign is that we use 1d4 rather than 1d6-1 for the killing attack STUN multiplier. It takes the big 5 away from the STUN lottery.

 

This change reduces the average multiplier a teensy bit, to x2.5 from x2.67. Such a small difference doesn't require any point cost adjustment.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

uh....

I don't think you really meant (INT/5)+(DEX/5) +1 right? That would result in an average SPD of 5!

Anyway, why not use just (INT+DEX)/10?

Er....yeah, thats what I meant. Sorry

 

Actually meant: ((INT + DEX) / 20) + 1

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Actually' date=' the one main rules thing I don't like is the lack of guidance about dealing with XP "splurging." I use a slightly modified version of what Killer Shrike (I think it was him) suggested - 1 XP to a single ability per session, and one point automatically gets put into the "training pool" each session which can be used for intensive training sessions (for example, to allow a martial art to be picked up at a basic level all at once).[/quote']

 

Yeah, thats my thing, minus the "training pool" bit.

 

Basically a player can allocate 1 character point to any single ability per in-game week of play, and they must have used or made an attempt to gain that ability during that timeframe in game. They can also opt to keep them unassigned in case the timeline skips ahead a bit.

 

Thus if a character gained 3 xp in a session, the player could do something like assign 1 pt to raising their STR, 1 pt to raising their SPD, and 1 pt to raising a skill (assuming that they did something STR based, and used the skill at least once; SPD is tricky to "use", but generally using actions as soon as they are available rather than holding is a good enough out).

 

Further if I feel like something should be added to a character due to events in play, I occasional exercise GM's fiat to assign 1 or 2 points of XP specifically. I dont like to do this often; prefering to let the player develop in the direction the want, but sometimes it seems called for. The most frequent example is the Reputation Perk. If the character has done something noteworthy in the session, I will sometimes assign 1 of their xp points into a appropriate Rep. This usually self-balances because the player probably would get an extra xp point for doing something so noteworthy to begin with. Pays for itself essentially.

 

Ive also occasionally insisted that a player raise a particular skill if their character used it a lot in a single session -- only makes sense to me that if they used Climbing 15 times in a session and KS: Cool Lore once then their Climbing should get better rather than the lesser used skill. However, this usually is unnecessary as well since most players, having just made a bunch of skill rolls with the same skill, will naturally seek to buff it a little regardless.

 

The main advantage to this approach is it stops characters from growing much better at specific things from one day to the next. At any given time a character might be nurturing a long several things theyve been allocating points to until they have put enough into it. It also has some benefits in game as well since players are concientious to specifically use the abilities they want to develop, or else allow things to develop naturally based upon when things come up as they prefer.

 

I do make an exception in Fantasy game in the case of Magic Systems that cost points to learn new spells or effects but have their own rules for learning/acquiring them however.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Killer,

Some of what you say makes sense (invisiblity IS shapeshift, never thought about that before) but I disagree with the power attack/Energy Blast. The name should probably be changed, but I would leave everything the same except call it Ranged Attack. So you would have Killing Attack: Ranged, Killing Attack:Hand-to-Hand, Attack:Ranged, Attack: Hand-to-Hand

Keep in mind however that if STR cost 2 points HA would go away. It's a kludge currently. It's 1d6 damage so it costs 5 points, but bcs STR is so cheap it doesnt make sense to pay 5 points for 1d6 Normal damage when you could just buy 5 STR and get 1d6 N, double your lifting capacity, get another inch of leaping, +1 PD, +1 REC, and +3 STUN.

 

If STR were priced at 2 for 1 5pts for 1d6 N that added to STR would be just fine, and thus the need for a special exception would go away.

 

Also consider that in the HERO System you are supposed to reason from effects and buy the base power that best accomplishes that effect. Well, if you want to do damage it currently breaks down like this:

 

Is it 1) Normal or 2) Killing

 

Is it a) at Range or do you Add STR.

 

1a = Energy Blast (which can, despite the name, by vs Physical defenses)

1b = Hand Attack (which doesnt actually have to be done with your hand)

2a = Killing Attack; Ranged (which can be No Range (-1/2) if you like)

2b = Killing Attack; Hand (which also does not necesarily have to be done with a hand)

 

So basically, you have 4 Powers that serve only to determine N or K, Ranged or Add STR, and are all in certain way misleading in their labels, containing SFX terms or in the case of Ranged can be paradoxically labeled.

 

Is that really necessary in a reason from effect/base power set up? Really it's just 1 mechanic -- the ability to do direct damage. Everything else is a modifier or a simple toggle (E or P; Ranged or Add STR).

 

Also, do we need seperate Power for Normal Damage and Killing Damage? It's just damage. Killing Damage is 15 pts per 1d6, Normal Damage is 5 pts per 1d6. Really Killing Damage is just a modified version of Normal Damage. Why not just handle it as a +2 Advantage? 1d6 = 5 base x 3 = 15 pts. Seems to be more consistent with the underlying HERO meta logic to me.

 

I also agree with calling them Limitations not disadvantages. It Limits the power doesn't necesarily disadvantage the power.

If a positive modifier is an Advantage, basic English would indicate that the opposite is a Disadvantage. Pro vs Con, Min vs Max, Adv vis Disad. It's a standard pairing, and more to the point Disadvantage literally means the opposite of Advantage.

 

disadvantage

 

n : the quality of having an inferior or less favorable position [ant: advantage] v : put at a disadvantage; hinder, harm; "This rule clearly disadvantages me" [syn: disfavor, disfavour] [ant: advantage]

 

[Middle English disavauntage, from Old French desavantage : des-, dis- + avantage, advantage; see advantage.]

[Gary]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Also, do we need seperate Power for Normal Damage and Killing Damage? It's just damage. Killing Damage is 15 pts per 1d6, Normal Damage is 5 pts per 1d6. Really Killing Damage is just a modified version of Normal Damage. Why not just handle it as a +2 Advantage? 1d6 = 5 base x 3 = 15 pts. Seems to be more consistent with the underlying HERO meta logic to me.

 

 

The problem with this is the Advantage stacking problem. Right now, it costs 60 pts to add Armor Piercing and 0 End to a 12d6 EB for a total of 120 pts. If you made Killing a +2 Advantage, it would only cost 20 pts to add Armor Piercing 0 End to a 4d6 Killing Attack for a total of 80 pts.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

The problem with this is the Advantage stacking problem. Right now' date=' it costs 60 pts to add Armor Piercing and 0 End to a 12d6 EB for a total of 120 pts. If you made Killing a +2 Advantage, it would only cost 20 pts to add Armor Piercing 0 End to a 4d6 Killing Attack for a total of 80 pts.[/quote']

Thats true. However, concurrent with coallescing the various damage powers into a single Attack power the STUN lottery would also ideally be minimized, reducing the strength of Killing damage overall.

 

Personally I would got with a simple d3 STUN multiple, getting rid of the goofy 1d6 -1 and narrowing the STUN spread quite a bit.

 

Then you would get:

 

A 60 pt 12d6 Attack.

Attacking an opponent w/ 15 PD does an average of 27 STUN, 0 BODY

 

A 60 pt 12d6 Attack w/ AP cost 90 pts.

Attacking an opponent w/ 15 PD does an average of 34 STUN, 4 BODY

 

 

A 60 pt Attack with Killing (+2), 4d6 K

Attacking an opponent w/ 15 rPD does an average of 13 STUN *, 0 BODY

 

A 60 pt Attack with Killing (+2) and AP (+1/2) costs 70 pts, 4d6 K

Attacking an opponent w/ 15 rPD does an average of 20 STUN *, 6 BODY

 

* If the target also has additional non-resistant PD, even less STUN gets thru.

 

So basically, for the 20 point difference there the normal damage attack does 2 DC less Killing but 4 DC worth more STUN on average with the AP applied.

 

 

But yeah, the Advantage method does scale oddly. Nevertheless, if thats an issue for people, its still possible to narrow the powers down to two Powers; Killing Attack and Normal Attack.

 

In general I prefer to see Powers combined into multi-functional broad powers. Quality over Quantity so to speak.

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Thats true. However, concurrent with coallescing the various damage powers into a single Attack power the STUN lottery would also ideally be minimized, reducing the strength of Killing damage overall.

 

Personally I would got with a simple d3 STUN multiple, getting rid of the goofy 1d6 -1 and narrowing the STUN spread quite a bit.

 

Then you would get:

 

A 60 pt 12d6 Attack.

Attacking an opponent w/ 15 PD does an average of 27 STUN, 0 BODY

 

A 60 pt 12d6 Attack w/ AP cost 90 pts.

Attacking an opponent w/ 15 PD does an average of 34 STUN, 4 BODY

 

 

A 60 pt Attack with Killing (+2), 4d6 K

Attacking an opponent w/ 15 rPD does an average of 13 STUN *, 0 BODY

 

A 60 pt Attack with Killing (+2) and AP (+1/2) costs 70 pts, 4d6 K

Attacking an opponent w/ 15 rPD does an average of 20 STUN *, 6 BODY

 

* If the target also has additional non-resistant PD, even less STUN gets thru.

 

So basically, for the 20 point difference there the normal damage attack does 2 DC less Killing but 4 DC worth more STUN on average with the AP applied.

 

 

But yeah, the Advantage method does scale oddly. Nevertheless, if thats an issue for people, its still possible to narrow the powers down to two Powers; Killing Attack and Normal Attack.

 

In general I prefer to see Powers combined into multi-functional broad powers. Quality over Quantity so to speak.

 

I don't see why so many players want to further gimp killing attacks (they already do annoyingly little body in a standard Supers game), but if you have to fiddle with them wouldn't it be easier to just treat them as another case of the AVLD? In this case, AVLD: Resistant Defences? As in supers campaigns that's a very common defense, the GM could drop the cost of the advantage accordingly. No stun multiple or different method of counting damage needed at all.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

This change reduces the average multiplier a teensy bit' date=' to x2.5 from x2.67. Such a small difference doesn't require any point cost adjustment.[/quote']

 

There's also the benefit that a 1 multiplier is only 1/4, and not 1/3, as likely. My experience in a typical Supers campaign (say 60 AP), a 1 means "no STUN, but a 2 gets something through. So you lose the 1 in 6 chance of a 5, and the average goes down a little, but you'll also have less attacks, on average, that have no effect on your opponent.

 

For those who like the result, but dislike using "odd-shaped dice", you could set the Stun Multiple as 1=1; 2 or 3 = 2; 4 or 5 = 3; 6 = 4. This has the same average, and further reduces the odds of both minimum and maximum STUN.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I say it is 89% but the missing 11% is because there are no examples (in the book) of how to use COM, making it prone to really annoying debates.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I would say we use 80% of the core system as is but our games tend to have a lot of house rules, mostly dealing with Powers, Advantages, and Limitations, to try and make them feel more logical to our minds. A few examples:

 

The breakout roll for mental powers was abolished. It requires a 12d6 power to achieve a +30 on a normal human, allowing that person to have over a 50% chance to escape with a single roll seemed foolish.

 

We also have telekinesis costing 5 points per 5 strength. TK is really only Strength, usable at ranged, with no figured characteristics. So we just purchase TK as 5 for 5. It makes more sense to us.

 

One aspect of 5th I don't understand is how they can create a power skill to allow free-wheeling play and then at the same time show you how a brick must buy an entangle power to be able to wrap someone with a light pole. To me this seems like opposite ends of the spectrum. Either you pay points for everything (entangle light poles) or your allow players to have some things for free (power skill brick tricks). We still allow bricks to use enviromental objects to tie up foes. We don't make Batman pay for the ability to tie up unconscious foes with rope from the warehouse either.

 

We still love the Hero System and with our 4-5 pages of house rules find it very playable and fun. I guess that's all that matters in the end.

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

One aspect of 5th I don't understand is how they can create a power skill to allow free-wheeling play and then at the same time show you how a brick must buy an entangle power to be able to wrap someone with a light pole. To me this seems like opposite ends of the spectrum. Either you pay points for everything (entangle light poles) or your allow players to have some things for free (power skill brick tricks). We still allow bricks to use enviromental objects to tie up foes. We don't make Batman pay for the ability to tie up unconscious foes with rope from the warehouse either.

 

This is something that bugs me as well. Why the heck use Transformation Attack: Sighted Person to Blind Person to represent shoving pointy sticks into someones eyes? You have the killing attacks, you have hit locations, and you have rules for crippling injuries. If a player wants to play Doctor Poke-in-the-Eye, skill levels or a good CV work much better conceptually than that awkward Transformation construct. The whole dispell versus Technology thing for bricks is even worse; a Gadget is breakable or not for a reason. If the brick wants to target the gadget, let him; why force him to spend points? Maybe you can make a case for saving the GM the trouble of looking up the hit location and breakable objects rules, but it still seems like wasted points.

[Zanthis]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I'd say 80%, but I general don't find it worth it to house rule the last 20% at the moment. Mainly because my play group are such inexperienced RPers that taking it away from the book rules is just too confusing right now.

 

In response to Killer Shrike's comments (with which I agree), you forgot about my favorite non-intuitive attack:

 

Hand Killing Attack: Ranged (for knives and other thrown weapons that add Strength). Everyone, and I mean every single new player, goes straight to RKA when they want to make throwing knives.

 

a) Normal / Killing damage

Ranged / HtH

c) Add STR / Don't Add STR

 

For each attack, pick one from a, b and c. I think I'd favor making two attack powers based on Range and HtH so as to up the base cost of ranged damage so stacked advantages on ranged powers are heavier. Killing Damage could easily be tweaked so that it could work just fine as a +2 advantage. And Add STR could also easily be an advantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

We also have telekinesis costing 5 points per 5 strength. TK is really only Strength' date=' usable at ranged, with no figured characteristics. So we just purchase TK as 5 for 5. It makes more sense to us. [/quote']

 

The advantage TK has over ranged STR, no Figured is that it is, under the rules, semi-indirect. Steve answered a rules board question once indicating he couldn't think of anything +3/4 indirect would do which TK couldn't. So 10 STR x 1.75/1.5 = 15 points for TK.

 

I'd rather redefine the rules so TK costs 5 points for 5 STR, but is not inherently indirect. It sounds like that's the approach you've taken.

[Wildcat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I love the HERO System as it is, warts and all...

-Snip-

And so on.

 

Boy Shrike for a guy who likes the System "as it is" you sure had alot to say about changes... Well thought out and put together changes to boot...

 

Sounds like your alot less happy about the system that you say.

 

Also please guys this is a thread about how much we like Hero the way it is... We have TONS of other threads devoted to Ripping it to shreds, so let's just keep the talk here about what we like about Hero OK?

 

I LOVE Hero the way it is... I'd give it a 95%+ rating... True nothing is perfect, but for the past 23 years I have found no other system that suits my needs for any setting & alows me such freedom in crossing genres so fluidly (Something I'm very fond of) Another aspect of the Hero System I enjoy (and I KNOW I'm not the only one) is the ability to build ANYTHING with Hero... I did this the otherday while givign the Females in my life grief while they watch a 'Chick-Flick' as I was building NPC for my GateCrashers game. I kept modling the things done in the movie (13 going on 30)

Running in Heels: +3 Pen Skill Levels only to offset the Pen from Improper footgear.

Or

Environmental Movement: High Heels

 

WC

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I don't see why so many players want to further gimp killing attacks (they already do annoyingly little body in a standard Supers game)' date=' but if you have to fiddle with them wouldn't it be easier to just treat them as another case of the AVLD? In this case, AVLD: Resistant Defences? As in supers campaigns that's a very common defense, the GM could drop the cost of the advantage accordingly. No stun multiple or different method of counting damage needed at all.[/quote']

That works too

 

Either way, Killing Attacks dont require two (and perhaps not even 1) Power to track in the game.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Boy Shrike for a guy who likes the System "as it is" you sure had alot to say about changes... Well thought out and put together changes to boot...

 

Sounds like your alot less happy about the system that you say.

 

 

Well, no actually; I dont think anyone can question my enthusiasm and happiness with the HERO System. I love to use it.

 

However I think anything can be improved, even things I like. I like myself for example, but I know there are dozens of things I could do to make myself better; I like my car, but if the makers of it contacted me regarding what the next model should be like Id have a laundry list of things for them to.

 

It's just in my nature to refine and tweak things.

[Mentor]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Well, no actually; I dont think anyone can question my enthusiasm and happiness with the HERO System. I love to use it.

 

However I think anything can be improved, even things I like. I like myself for example, but I know there are dozens of things I could do to make myself better; I like my car, but if the makers of it contacted me regarding what the next model should be like Id have a laundry list of things for them to.

 

It's just in my nature to refine and tweak things.

Considering the really imaginative and innovative campaign and character concepts you have posted on these boards, keep tweaking and refining, KS.

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Considering the really imaginative and innovative campaign and character concepts you have posted on these boards' date=' keep tweaking and refining, KS. [/quote']

 

Seconded.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Aw shucks, twernt nuthin

[Wildcat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Well' date=' no actually; I dont think anyone can question my enthusiasm and happiness with the HERO System. I love to use it.[/quote']

 

You guys are missing my point I never once Questioned your Love of the game infact I pointed out that I thought that your changes/suggestions were very well thought out...

 

It's just in my nature to refine and tweak things.

 

I like to do that as well, but I guess I don't seem to have as much a desire to make changes to things I'm happy with. What I said was that it seemed that you were not as happy as you made it sound with the Hero system as it is... and you have that right, and you have good valid well reasoned ideas (I've been to your site, read your posts and like your ideas)

 

All I was trying to get across was that this thread is dedicated to what we DO like about it not what we think should be changed. Ive gotten bogged down reading so many of that style of threads, that I came to this one to see if anyone else was happy with it to the extent I was... and then it turned right into the same thing as all the rest - a place to post how you would make it better, when that's not the point of this thread...

 

While not flamed here I really feel that because my post count is low (Lurker but not a frequent poster) that my point was instantly overlooked, and then you're even praised, then Seconed. As if I had done something to sully your name or reputation here. I have no doubt that your ideas hold alot of sway on these board Shrike, and I respect your opinion. But I can honestly say that the feeling I get is that since I seemingly said something contradictory tword you... I was looked upon unfavorably.

 

It's reasons just like this that keep me from posting all that offten.

 

WC

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

You guys are missing my point I never once Questioned your Love of the game infact I pointed out that I thought that your changes/suggestions were very well thought out...

 

 

 

I like to do that as well, but I guess I don't seem to have as much a desire to make changes to things I'm happy with. What I said was that it seemed that you were not as happy as you made it sound with the Hero system as it is... and you have that right, and you have good valid well reasoned ideas (I've been to your site, read your posts and like your ideas)

 

All I was trying to get across was that this thread is dedicated to what we DO like about it not what we think should be changed. Ive gotten bogged down reading so many of that style of threads, that I came to this one to see if anyone else was happy with it to the extent I was... and then it turned right into the same thing as all the rest - a place to post how you would make it better, when that's not the point of this thread...

 

While not flamed here I really feel that because my post count is low (Lurker but not a frequent poster) that my point was instantly overlooked, and then you're even praised, then Seconed. As if I had done something to sully your name or reputation here. I have no doubt that your ideas hold alot of sway on these board Shrike, and I respect your opinion. But I can honestly say that the feeling I get is that since I seemingly said something contradictory tword you... I was looked upon unfavorably.

 

It's reasons just like this that keep me from posting all that offten.

 

WC

Woah, slow down there!

 

Youre point was a well made and valid request to not derail the thread. I meant my reply as more of acknowledgement and a mea culpa. I see that I didnt actually come out and say that; it read as more of a defense rather than an explanation of where I was coming from.

 

As far as the board status feeling, some folks I get along with particularly well and respect based upon past posts like OddHat, Enforcer, Derek H., Lord Liaden, Solomon, and many others in that vein. Others I respect particularly for their mechanical mastery, like Gary. Others I have occasional communication with outside of the boards directly like Heirax, Edsel, and Eosin. And there are a very few, who will remain nameless, I dont respect and disregard.

 

And Im always gratified when others express their appreciation for my contributions, of course.

 

But neither post count nor rep mean anything to me; I value people's posts by the content and the clarity of communication. I can't recall anything specific that Ive seen you posted, but I think I recall you posting in some of the art threads. However, any HEROphile that participates in HERO Games discussions is welcome in my opinion. There are few too many of is in the bigger picture, and I'm always interested in seeing a semi-lurker like yourself post as frequently as they care to.

 

So, basically, I'm saying this is an open forum, please post to your hearts content, and I'm sorry for hi-jacking the thread in the first place.

[Rick]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Hero5 is made to be tweaked, house rulked and redefined. That's it's beauty, that's why I love it. Steve and Co. even give us means to tweak and change there games as examples in text (magic cost real points/2, 3 or 5, that's still blws my mind , and I love it).

[Wildcat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Thanx Shrike - Well said. I never meant it to be directed @ you. My frustration is with the Board's Hierarchy.

 

I also didn't mean to come off as a cry baby, but more like someone who watches often and sees how some things can be percieved.

 

WC

[Mentor]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

You guys are missing my point I never once Questioned your Love of the game infact I pointed out that I thought that your changes/suggestions were very well thought out...

 

 

 

I like to do that as well, but I guess I don't seem to have as much a desire to make changes to things I'm happy with. What I said was that it seemed that you were not as happy as you made it sound with the Hero system as it is... and you have that right, and you have good valid well reasoned ideas (I've been to your site, read your posts and like your ideas)

 

All I was trying to get across was that this thread is dedicated to what we DO like about it not what we think should be changed. Ive gotten bogged down reading so many of that style of threads, that I came to this one to see if anyone else was happy with it to the extent I was... and then it turned right into the same thing as all the rest - a place to post how you would make it better, when that's not the point of this thread...

 

While not flamed here I really feel that because my post count is low (Lurker but not a frequent poster) that my point was instantly overlooked, and then you're even praised, then Seconed. As if I had done something to sully your name or reputation here. I have no doubt that your ideas hold alot of sway on these board Shrike, and I respect your opinion. But I can honestly say that the feeling I get is that since I seemingly said something contradictory tword you... I was looked upon unfavorably.

 

It's reasons just like this that keep me from posting all that offten.

 

WC

I agreed with your point right up until Killer Shrike clarified where he was coming from. He responded to your post politely and in what I saw as the spirit of the thread. My praise of his innovation was precisely that in the context of his many detailed gaming posts on the Hero boards Killer Shrike has demonstrated that he does very much love the Hero System.

 

There was certainly no intent to contradict or dis you, Wildcat. I'm sorry if I came accross that way.

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

You guys are missing my point I never once Questioned your Love of the game infact I pointed out that I thought that your changes/suggestions were very well thought out...

 

 

 

I like to do that as well, but I guess I don't seem to have as much a desire to make changes to things I'm happy with. What I said was that it seemed that you were not as happy as you made it sound with the Hero system as it is... and you have that right, and you have good valid well reasoned ideas (I've been to your site, read your posts and like your ideas)

 

All I was trying to get across was that this thread is dedicated to what we DO like about it not what we think should be changed. Ive gotten bogged down reading so many of that style of threads, that I came to this one to see if anyone else was happy with it to the extent I was... and then it turned right into the same thing as all the rest - a place to post how you would make it better, when that's not the point of this thread...

 

While not flamed here I really feel that because my post count is low (Lurker but not a frequent poster) that my point was instantly overlooked, and then you're even praised, then Seconed. As if I had done something to sully your name or reputation here. I have no doubt that your ideas hold alot of sway on these board Shrike, and I respect your opinion. But I can honestly say that the feeling I get is that since I seemingly said something contradictory tword you... I was looked upon unfavorably.

 

It's reasons just like this that keep me from posting all that offten.

 

WC

 

Yup, sorry for the thread drift. It happens, especially when people are talking about something they're passionate about. No disrespect intended.