Hero System is Just Alright With Me

[Toadmaster]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Fantastic guys! It's great to see so much agreement.

 

Now, which 90+% is well put together?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think this is really the point, most of us like the rules pretty much as they are. I know the majority of my house rules really are not new rules at all, I'm just using the rules in a slightly differant way. It is often said HERO's Champions roots keep it from being good for lower level games, but many of the "problems" are just interpretation not really rules, it started out with supers so many of the assumptions on damage, strength chart etc were set for that genre, the rules themselves actually work pretty well its just a matter of tweaking things here and there. Guns don't do enough damage, give 'em a few more dc, people don't move fast enough raise the NCM of speed or make the speed chart 6 seconds instead of 12 (1/2 second segments), don't like Killing attacks? don't allow them.

 

That is why I think HERO works so well, the rules allow you to build everything and the way the system works is very clear so its easy to make and evaluate changes. Are there fundamental changes I would make? sure, but not a whole lot. Does it give me a migraine when other make changes? no, just so long as they don't try to force me to change.

 

I kind of get the feeling from reading the posts that WC wanted to see what people liked so...

 

Killing attacks / normal attacks, this is something I have not seen any other game handle well, for me it is one of HERO's strengths, while HERO has a narrow damage range which bugs me at times it also provides many ways to make damage differant without being more "powerful".

 

Damage modifiers, AP, + Stun Mod, Reduced Pen, NND etc, again it allows a wide range of damage without requiring a wide range of DC.

 

Stun / Body, again I think HERO did this well, most other games have cludgy non lethal attack rules. In HERO it is well integrated and not particularly complicated.

 

Knowledge, Science, Professional Skills, allows so many skills of varying complexity without requiring a huge skill list.

 

Similarly the use of powers to create "powers".

 

And of course character creation.

 

I'm sure there are others but its late and this is all I can think of.

 

I don't even play supers games and I think HERO is one of the best systems available.

[buzz]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Is that really necessary in a reason from effect/base power set up? Really it's just 1 mechanic -- the ability to do direct damage. Everything else is a modifier or a simple toggle (E or P; Ranged or Add STR).

FWIW, this is basically what GURPS 4e does. There's an Advantage called Innate Attack, and it's basically just the power to do damage at range. You then modify it to model the attack you're trying to build, e.g., remove the range, define the type of damage, how much, etc.

 

If a positive modifier is an Advantage' date=' basic English would indicate that the opposite is a Disadvantage. Pro vs Con, Min vs Max, Adv vis Disad. It's a standard pairing, and more to the point Dis[i']advantage[/i] literally means the opposite of Advantage.

Again, GURPS uses the terminology Enhancement/Limitation for things that modify Advantages/Disadvantages.

 

Not that I'm trying to pimp GURPS or anything... just been readin' 4e lately.

[Chuk]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I like and use Hero -- the main house rule I use is that I'm pretty waffly about Transform (changing someone to a "real" frog would not require you to buy the Transform three times in my games), and I don't like the new costs for Damage Shield. And in most games I'm a little more free with the "paying points for stuff" than seems to be taken by most posters. I'd probably give it a 95%, maybe even 97%.

[Just Joe]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

. . . in most games I'm a little more free with the "paying points for stuff" than seems to be taken by most posters.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you elaborate and/or give an example?

[Chuk]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you elaborate and/or give an example?

 

I knew someone would say that. Just that, in so many threads and discussions like "How would you write up a towel/flashlight/pocketknife?", you see people statting out every possible ability in great detail. While I like that Hero can do that, I don't usually have the time for it, especially if it's something like a VPP or a thug.

 

I do like PCs to be fully statted, though. Most NPCs, too. And I'm maybe a little more lenient with special-effects based power uses than others are (at least, than a few others that have GM'd for me and several online posters are -- maybe it's actually the more common way to go.)

[Just Joe]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I understand now. Yeah, I'm pretty much with you on this. Actually, I rarely pay much attention to point costs on anything that a PC doesn't pay points for, and I don't make PC's pay points for relatively mundane equipment (and I'd put quite a lot in that category).

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I only charge points directly for real-tech if it's going to be used by the players in multiple combats or scenes, but I do charge for enough wealth and cotacts to get your hands on real-tech items that can't be ordered by the average civillian online. I also allow most point-purchased real-tech items to be built as fragile breakable OAFs with activation rolls and an aditional -1/4 "real tech" limit, which keeps the real point costs down.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I understand now. Yeah' date=' I'm pretty much with you on this. Actually, I rarely pay much attention to point costs on anything that a PC doesn't pay points for, and I don't make PC's pay points for relatively mundane equipment (and I'd put quite a lot in that category).[/quote']

 

Here's how I rationalize the "paying points for stuff you can buy normally." I find I need to explain this concept to new hero gamers who do things like "Oh... the agent dropped his gun when he went down? Where is it? I get it!" It is a very D&D mentality, as equipment is such a big deal in those games, but usually simply a prop in Champions.

 

1) It is necessary in the superheroic level, for game balance.

 

2) That being said, I will no stop players from using basic equipment, even guns and such, if it makes sense that they'd have access to it, without paying points.

 

3) The caveat to #2 is, if you don't pay points for it... then it is a "prop" and it comes and goes based on the story. Easy come, easy go. The equipment/gun is not reliable... it is likely to be lost or stolen, and it carries "real world" issues... like traceability, legality, funds and especially "time to acquire."

 

4) The beauty of paying points for "equipment" is not that the points buy a certain piece of equipment... but that the points represent "regular, easy, reliable access" to such equipment, and that equipment is "top quality, effective, without real world concerns."

 

This last part is big. It is what really comes in handy in my games. Characters find that, if they pay points for it, then I never questing their having it (outside of taken away in combat or they are captured and left in Antartica, or something truly plot driven). This means... "Hey, I need to travel from the Mediterranean to Poland to make an extraction of an agent there! I paid points for my Kimbers, so somehow, someway, I get them through all the real world security issues. I have hidden compartments... I have a pair waiting with a dealer I know in Krakow, whatever." The guy who didn't pay points for guns... well... he's screwed... caught by security, shipment doesn't arrive, dealer doesn't show, etc.

 

Once players grasp the idea that the points don't represent "an actual gun" but instead are more like a Perk: Access to a specific gun or equipment... then they start to really like the idea. It is not seen as a hardship, but a cool bit of their character... "Man... that guy always seems to have the equipment he needs!" type of thing. It's like paying points for a skill or Perk or Talent (though, yes, technically it is a Power in game terms) and players dig that.

 

Granted this only tends to be an issue in the more "super agent" games I run or play that are a subset of the superhero world. Characters who are super mercenaries and such, cyber gun slingers, etc., these questions come up a bit more. This take on "points for equipment" doesn't change anything by the rules... but it explains things in story terms that makes sense to the players. It's subtle, but surprisingly effective.

[ZenStorm]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I agree that Hero is well put together.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure I understand why they're releasing a Revised Edition. It's a little confusing to me.

 

My primary concern, having invested an awful-lot of money and time into my Hero stuff, is whether or not the Revised Edition will work with what I already have.

 

Will I have to keep a note-sheet with me and constantly compare it to everything I do?

 

Does anybody know?

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

My primary concern, having invested an awful-lot of money and time into my Hero stuff, is whether or not the Revised Edition will work with what I already have.

 

Will I have to keep a note-sheet with me and constantly compare it to everything I do?

 

Does anybody know?

 

Revised Ed. just moves everything from the FAQs, Errata, and Steve's Q&A's into the book.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Revised Ed. just moves everything from the FAQs' date=' Errata, and Steve's Q&A's into the book.[/quote']

 

Everything? There's room for that?

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Everything? There's room for that?

 

Well I may be wrong. How about "almost everything"?

[teh bunneh]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Revised Ed. just moves everything from the FAQs' date=' Errata, and Steve's Q&A's into the book.[/quote']

 

I had the chance to page through a test copy at NukeCon (I don't think I'm giving away State Secrets here, since Steve was showing it off to everyone who came within 10 feet as if it was pictures of a favored child)...

 

It also has lots of new art. Well, technically not "new," since it's stuff they've had in their files and haven't had a chance to use... but new as far as I was concerned.

 

And it will make an excellent hand to hand weapon against stubborn players.

 

Bill.

[Just Joe]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I find I need to explain this concept to new hero gamers who do things like "Oh... the agent dropped his gun when he went down? Where is it? I get it!" It is a very D&D mentality. . .

 

I don't think you intended this to be insulting, but I'm having trouble not feeling insulted anyway. I've been playing Hero System for a long time and gave up D&D long ago, but my perspective is still closer to that of your new gamers than to your own.

 

The rest of your post does not bother me. I disagree with a considerable fraction of it, but it seems to represent one reasonable way of handling things.

[KA.]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I don't think you intended this to be insulting, but I'm having trouble not feeling insulted anyway. I've been playing Hero System for a long time and gave up D&D long ago, but my perspective is still closer to that of your new gamers than to your own.

 

The rest of your post does not bother me. I disagree with a considerable fraction of it, but it seems to represent one reasonable way of handling things.

 

Just Joe,

I am not a mind-reader, but I really don't think there is an insult here.

I have played a fair amount of D&D, and a fair amount of Hero.

 

One of the basic concepts of D&D is that you acquire things by taking them away from someone else, either while they are alive, or after they die.

You cannot use Experience Points to "buy" a Sword of Sharpness or Bag of Holding. You usually have to take items away from someone to get them.

 

Which causes D&D players to, quite reasonably, assume that this is standard procedure in other RPG's.

 

So if they see a Viper Agent with a neat Blaster Rifle, they assume that they should be able to take it, and keep it.

 

This does not imply that D&D players are all "hack and slashers".

Some friends of a friend of mine years ago (around 1983) were running a D&D campaign that was all role-playing. They went for weeks without so much as a fistfight. I found it boring myself, but they seemed to enjoy it.

 

But I don't think comments about "D&D mentality" are meant as some type of insult. They are just a shorthand way of describing the difference between a "keep what you grab" based game, and a "you have to pay points if you want to keep it" based game.

 

Also, at least if the former D&D players are moving into playing Champions, you can have some "genre shock" too.

 

GM: "Ripper is robbing the Bank."

Player: "Great! After he finishes, we will follow him back to his hideout, and then beat him up and take the money. Then we can start building that base we want!"

GM: "Uhhhhmmmm . . . I'm not sure that is going to work out."

 

KA.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I don't think you intended this to be insulting, but I'm having trouble not feeling insulted anyway. I've been playing Hero System for a long time and gave up D&D long ago, but my perspective is still closer to that of your new gamers than to your own.

 

The rest of your post does not bother me. I disagree with a considerable fraction of it, but it seems to represent one reasonable way of handling things.

 

Sorry about that. No insult intended. KA got it right. It's a matter of "system experience." I recently brought in two new players... a young husband and wife team. It's been great finally having a female player in the group... but she'd never really "role played" before. All the D&D she'd played was very tactical, "buy this item," "get that spell," "go defeat that monster... done," kind of thing. The first night, I simply had her character's cell phone ring... and she looked a little stricken. "I've never gamed like this before," she said. She'd been playing RPGs at least five years and had never "spoken in character!" I just said, "Just go with it... don't worry about rules, just act like you think your character would act."

 

Five minutes later, you'd think she'd been gaming with real role playing all her life. It was awesome... but...

 

... the first couple of combats, she scrambled after every dropped weapon, wondered if she could strip off the flak vest on an agent, etc. She was stealthing around at one point and spotted a sniper covering a meet the PCs were going to hit... she was so excited because she wanted to kill the guy and "get that sniper rifle!"

 

It's actually rather cute, but also funny to the rest of us. It is so alien for us to think in those terms as most of us have been playing Hero since first edition, and even her husband "gets it" (the Hero System) better than any newbie I've ever met before... so with her we realize it will be a slow weaning from that expectation of "gotta grab it!"

[Just Joe]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Sorry about that. No insult intended. KA got it right.

No problem. As soon as I posted I felt better, and as soon as I read KA's post I was sure he was right. I was being too sensitive.

 

 

It's a matter of "system experience."

But I still disagree with this. There seem to me to be at least three issues: system, genre, and quality of roleplaying. I'm not going to try to analyze all of these factors individually, but I will say this. On the particular issue of being able to use equipment acquired from enemies, the "D&D" approach just makes more sense. There are of course other factors, such as whether the character knows how to use the equipment, whether it fits, and whether it is legal or ethical to pick up the equipment. But in real life and in most good fiction, if there's a gun lying on the ground and you can use it to defend yourself, you're going to do it. Fortunately, Hero system has rules for running games in which you can do that. I'm not saying that you should do that, but I am saying that I do it, and I'm an experienced Hero gamer who does not think highly of the "grab the loot" mentality that tends to be associated with D&D.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

There seem to me to be at least three issues: system' date=' genre, and quality of roleplaying. I'm not going to try to analyze all of these factors individually, but I will say this. On the particular issue of being able to use equipment acquired from enemies, the "D&D" approach just makes more sense. There are of course other factors, such as whether the character knows how to use the equipment, whether it fits, and whether it is legal or ethical to pick up the equipment. But in real life and in most good fiction, if there's a gun lying on the ground and you can use it to defend yourself, you're going to do it.[/quote']

 

True. But that doesn't mean you then tuck the gun in your belt, and henceforth never leave the house without your gun.

 

System, genre and quality of RP all influence the result. A good system will contain rules to emulate the genre (which is an important part of customizing any given Hero game - rules to fit the genre).

 

Poor RP will get bad results every time. For example, picture a D&D game. The characters are searching for a kindly woodsman, and come across his house, but not him. There are signs of a struggle. There's a locked trapdoor in the woodsman's house, under his bed. It's too small to be an entry/egress point, so it's likelyw ehre he keeps his valuables.

 

What percentage of groups do you expect will open up the trap door to steal the woodsman's "treasure"? What percentage will say "these are his possessions, not spoils of war. We're here to find the woodsman" and leave the trapdoor locked to seek out the woodsman?

 

Probably a lesser percentage playing in Hero than in D&D, because D&D does reinforce the "grab the loot" mentality. But I'd bet you still get a good proportion of Hero players who are thinking about that better armor they could buy with the woodsman's treasure. Now, in a Champions game, the characters have nothing to gain by robbing the woodsman - wealth won't buy XP, and it won't even stick around unless you invest points in the Money perk.

[buzz]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Probably a lesser percentage playing in Hero than in D&D' date=' because D&D does reinforce the "grab the loot" mentality.[/quote']

I don't think that, out of the box, D&D reinforces any particular mentality. If anything, the alignment mechanic reinforces acting in accordance with whatever are your PC's professed beliefs. A good party might look at the woodsman's possessions (as would any good detective in your average cop show), but they wouldn't take anything. If they did, they'd be acting out of alignment and the DM could, if they chose, call them on it.

 

However, I htink there is a gamer mindset that tends to overlook conventional moral assumptions due to the nature of it being "just a game." I've seen it across many different systems, and I see it in HERO. What really has the biggest influence, IMO, is the style of the game the GM is running and the other players in the group.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

However' date=' I htink there is a gamer mindset that tends to overlook conventional moral assumptions due to the nature of it being "just a game." I've seen it across many different systems, and I see it in HERO. What really has the biggest influence, IMO, is the style of the game the GM is running and the other players in the group.[/quote']

 

I think the style of game and approach both players and GM take is a huge influence. However, the "gamist" side in D&D is "kill the monsters and grab the loot" because that means "gain XP and buy better equipment" which means "more power" which equals "winning".

 

In Hero, you don't get the same equation because "kill the monsters" does not necessarily equate to xp, and "grab the loot" does not automatically equate to "better equipment" as we hit the limits of what money can buy fairly easily. Thus, we get "Resolve the problem and stay in character" = "gain XP" which means "more power" which equals "winning".

 

But you can certainly build a game which rewards "kill the monster and grab the loot", motivating the same behavious. Good role players in a D&D game will also allow their characters' personalities to overcome their baser instincts, but the game as commonly run tends not to reward this positive behaviour.

[buzz]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

In Hero' date=' you don't get the same equation because "kill the monsters" does not necessarily equate to xp, and "grab the loot" does not automatically equate to "better equipment" as we hit the limits of what money can buy fairly easily. Thus, we get "Resolve the problem and stay in character" = "gain XP" which means "more power" which equals "winning".[/quote']

But isn't it possible that you could play a game just like stereotypical D&D with HERO, e.g., Fantasy HERO? Why ascribe this mentality just to D&D? And what about supers games where people act w/o regard for ethical considerations?

 

I dunno. I think you're either playing in a group that cares about this stuff or you're not.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

But isn't it possible that you could play a game just like stereotypical D&D with HERO, e.g., Fantasy HERO? Why ascribe this mentality just to D&D? And what about supers games where people act w/o regard for ethical considerations?

 

I dunno. I think you're either playing in a group that cares about this stuff or you're not.

 

Absolutely, you can play Hero the same way. I said you can build a game which motivates the D&D approach - not much of a troolkit if you couldn't.

 

But the Hero character creation and experience system doesn't default to rewarding "kill the monster and grab the loot", especially if you don't toss in a host of Independent magic items.

 

Conversely, to de-focus a D&D game from "kill the beast and grab the loot", you either need players who don't sweat the xp issue, or a revision to the xp system to ensure appropriate behaviour is rewarded. And you still have characters looking enviously at all those magic goodies they could have had.

 

Either game can play either way, but D&D is more inclined, by its rules system, to "slash & grab" play.

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

 

Conversely, to de-focus a D&D game from "kill the beast and grab the loot", you either need players who don't sweat the xp issue, or a revision to the xp system to ensure appropriate behaviour is rewarded. And you still have characters looking enviously at all those magic goodies they could have had.

 

Either game can play either way, but D&D is more inclined, by its rules system, to "slash & grab" play.

 

This was actually one of the things that pushed me away from D&D, and something that interferes with my enjoyment of even the best D&D PC Games. D&D turns every character into a vampire, and not the WoD happy sex mosquito variety. In D&D, thievery and murder are usually the only viable path to power, and the more murders you commit, the more powerful you become. Want to get really powerful? Commit genocide. Saying that it's all right because the legions you've slaughtered were Evil just doesn't cut it, and even 3.5's attempts to offer alternative ways to gain experience don't make much difference.

 

Hero system offers your players a chance to play good guys who do not steal and kill to make their way in the world; if you're into storytelling, that's a fine thing.

[buzz]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Conversely' date=' to de-focus a D&D game from "kill the beast and grab the loot", you either need players who don't sweat the xp issue, or a revision to the xp system to ensure appropriate behaviour is rewarded. And you still have characters looking enviously at all those magic goodies they could have had.[/quote']

FWIW, the current edition does not give out XP for collecting treasure and killing things. It gives out XP for overcoming challenges and roleplaying.

 

As for "appropriate behavior", well, that's defined by the group.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

FWIW, the current edition does not give out XP for collecting treasure and killing things. It gives out XP for overcoming challenges and roleplaying.

 

As for "appropriate behavior", well, that's defined by the group.

 

The game materials set the tone. In three editions over 30 years, I can recall one scenario which set a specific "don't kill the monsters" objective. I'll admit to not having read many scenarios for 3e/3.5 - do you have examples of scenarios with primary objectives best solved by an approach other than "kill the monsters & take the loot" or, better yet, which cannot be solved by that approach? I submit that "slash & grab" remains the most effective style for the vast majhority of material published by TSR/WOTC (other publishers put their own slant on things that TSR/WOTC can't control).