Hero System is Just Alright With Me

[Just Joe]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

If there's a system out there I'd prefer, I haven't seen it, and I'm satisfied enough to have stopped looking. Still, there are dozens of things with which I'm disatisfied. For some of these, I use house rules. For others, I would do so but the inconvenience of using rules not in the rulebook which might raise unanticipated problems seems to outweigh my in-principle preference for them. For still others, I have yet to find a solution I like. An example of the last is that I don't like the way higher speed entails faster movement per turn, but I don't like the consequences of buying down the movement of higher speed characters either.

 

Incidentally, if I can find the time, in the coming days I intend to start a number of threads raising objections and/or suggesting changes. Many of these entered (or re-entered) my mind after reading bits of DC, but some of them have more general application. I stumbled upon this thread while searching for threads that might have already raised some of the issues I intend to raise.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Incidentally' date=' if I can find the time, in the coming days I intend to start a number of threads raising objections and/or suggesting changes. Many of these entered (or re-entered) my mind after reading bits of DC, but some of them have more general application. I stumbled upon this thread while searching for threads that might have already raised some of the issues I intend to raise.[/quote']

Please keep in mind when you start all of these threads, and the flamebait they will seem to be giving to everyone, that the game system was not designed to represent realistic life. Your example of the running velocity due to speed being an example of this. The game was designed to represent various types of heroic fiction. Matrix, from the Commando movie, throwing 6 guards off of himself in the middle of shopping mall isn't realistic but it is heroic and it doesn't bother me that a Dark Champions character could do such a thing where a real person could not. Some gamers get so caught up trying to model reality with the system that they forget it's a game.

 

As far as movement velocity, you can always just purchase the extra speed with a Cannot Move: -1/2 Limitation on it. That will give you a character who can attack 6 phases a turn but only run on 2 of them. You can also simulate this by having low-speed characters just do more sweeps and rapidfire attacks when their phases come up. Let them make 3 attacks per phase with thier 2 speeds but give them levels to offset the sweep/rapidfire penalties.

 

Im happy with the speed system as it is. I'm not trying to compute that Captain America can run 30 MPH but his 7 speed lets him run 50 in the game. It uses too much brain power to rewrite the system to fit something of really zero importance over all, in my, and only my, opinion.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I would say hero is 90% usable out of the box (95% for supers), which is pretty impressive when you consider that its a "generic" system that can support multiple genres. That bit is where I think the other 10% comes in. Because its generic Hero has to be tailored to those genres, and some of its mechanics and base assumptions work better for some genres than others. It is a toolkit and you can do a lot of tailoring within the system as written, but I've found I do have to come up with a shortlist of house-rules in order to hit the feel of various genres. I do think there are a handful of things Hero could handle better (more granularity for skills, etc), but those are things I can live with for the most part.

[Just Joe]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Please keep in mind when you start all of these threads' date=' and the flamebait they will seem to be giving to everyone, that the game system was not designed to represent realistic life. Your example of the running velocity due to speed being an example of this.[/quote']

I'm not looking for flames, but am not particularly troubled by the possibility of unintentionally provoking them. I think most of us agree that the system is not supposed to represent realistic life, but we differ considerably in what degree of approximation of realism we desire in comics, movies, and roleplaying. In any event, realism is not the main point of my example (though it probably is tied in in some way, and that was a natural interpretation). The player and GM can decide whether the total movement per turn of the character is acceptable. I just think it's unfortunate that increasing speed substantially affects rate of movement, something which it is not meant to represent. One of the reasons I think it matters is because chases are potentially interesting dramatic events, but it is common for characters to travel at radically different rates as a side-effect of their speeds rather than as a result of character conception. This can make chases between these characters hard to pull off in an interesting and uncontrived manner.

As far as movement velocity, you can always just purchase the extra speed with a Cannot Move: -1/2 Limitation on it. That will give you a character who can attack 6 phases a turn but only run on 2 of them. You can also simulate this by having low-speed characters just do more sweeps and rapidfire attacks when their phases come up. Let them make 3 attacks per phase with thier 2 speeds but give them levels to offset the sweep/rapidfire penalties.

These are good suggestions for characters who just want to attack more often, but I'd like to find a way (and I'm not sure there is one that's not more trouble than it's worth) for speed to represent what it's meant to -- which is not just attacking -- without the side effect of more rapid running (swimming, etc.).

[cutsleeve]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

they should have a lil smiley ball that hops back and forth, with his mouth open, while on fire as an emoticon. For flames

[zornwil]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I love the game and can play it without any tweaks whatsoever. I've got nothing against house rules but I don't get why some of the folks on the boards just don't start from scratch and build their own system.

I suspect many if not most of the ones into rules tweaks probably have, and probably more than one.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Thanx Shrike - Well said. I never meant it to be directed @ you. My frustration is with the Board's Hierarchy.

 

I also didn't mean to come off as a cry baby, but more like someone who watches often and sees how some things can be percieved.

 

WC

Not sure what the shunning was for/how it's going on now, but such things do get forgotten quickly - I'd urge you to post as you wish, within reason of course.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

As to HERO and 90%, sure, I think it is at least 90% suitable out of the box, but more importantly I think it provides a framework that's easy to tweak, mostly, to get desired results that are at odds with the game as-designed, whereas other systems are much harder (even if only for being more time-consuming) to tweak.

[arcady]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I don't do house rules.

 

I've always looked at it like the person at a boardgame who suddenly blurts out "well I say if you land on that square you get to draw two cards," or "well I wanna roll again."

 

It just bothers me.

 

I'd rather switch systems than tamper with the one I've got, and I won't play in a game if I'm handed a sheet of house rules.

 

No game engine is perfect, but before tampering with it I would wager is it much better to try it out and make sure the problems you think are there really are. Any change is likely to introduce new problems, and you'll have to account for those as well. Before considering any change, I would want to prove not making that change would leave the game unviable. At that point though, for me, I'm more likely to just pull some other option off the shelf.

 

I'm a big advocate of change in social thinking, politics, and most aspects of life - but not on this one thing. With a game engine, altering it is just not what I enjoy. Working out ways to use it creatively yes, but not tampering with it.

 

Hero works fine enough for most genres for me from what I recall - it having been a few years since I last played. I do not believe a person can truly make a statement about game mechanics they have only read and analyzed, but from my read of things now it seems to still hold for the above.

 

For those genres where I find it too problematic, rather than rewrite it, I've simply found other options.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I don't do house rules.

 

I've always looked at it like the person at a boardgame who suddenly blurts out "well I say if you land on that square you get to draw two cards," or "well I wanna roll again."

 

It just bothers me.

 

I'd rather switch systems than tamper with the one I've got, and I won't play in a game if I'm handed a sheet of house rules.

 

No game engine is perfect, but before tampering with it I would wager is it much better to try it out and make sure the problems you think are there really are. Any change is likely to introduce new problems, and you'll have to account for those as well. Before considering any change, I would want to prove not making that change would leave the game unviable. At that point though, for me, I'm more likely to just pull some other option off the shelf.

 

I'm a big advocate of change in social thinking, politics, and most aspects of life - but not on this one thing. With a game engine, altering it is just not what I enjoy. Working out ways to use it creatively yes, but not tampering with it.

 

Hero works fine enough for most genres for me from what I recall - it having been a few years since I last played. I do not believe a person can truly make a statement about game mechanics they have only read and analyzed, but from my read of things now it seems to still hold for the above.

 

For those genres where I find it too problematic, rather than rewrite it, I've simply found other options.

Interesting, I've never met an RPG game system I've used as is (except possibly a rare one-off here or there).

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Interesting' date=' I've never met an RPG game system I've used as is (except possibly a rare one-off here or there).[/quote']

 

Yep, I've never used an RPG system as is for any length of time, or a game world, without introducing a few tweaks to make it fit the kinds of stories I want to tell. I think it's one of the strengths of hero that I need to tweak it so little to get it to work the way I want it to.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

That, and it's very amenable to tweaking. Though I find that for my purposes, no tweaks is preferable, since I play in several online games with different people, most of which I don't GM, and having to know a different set of tweaks for each game would be a pain.

[KA.]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I don't do house rules.

 

I've always looked at it like the person at a boardgame who suddenly blurts out "well I say if you land on that square you get to draw two cards," or "well I wanna roll again."

 

It just bothers me.

 

I'd rather switch systems than tamper with the one I've got, and I won't play in a game if I'm handed a sheet of house rules.

 

No game engine is perfect, but before tampering with it I would wager is it much better to try it out and make sure the problems you think are there really are. Any change is likely to introduce new problems, and you'll have to account for those as well. Before considering any change, I would want to prove not making that change would leave the game unviable. At that point though, for me, I'm more likely to just pull some other option off the shelf.

 

I'm a big advocate of change in social thinking, politics, and most aspects of life - but not on this one thing. With a game engine, altering it is just not what I enjoy. Working out ways to use it creatively yes, but not tampering with it.

 

Hero works fine enough for most genres for me from what I recall - it having been a few years since I last played. I do not believe a person can truly make a statement about game mechanics they have only read and analyzed, but from my read of things now it seems to still hold for the above.

 

For those genres where I find it too problematic, rather than rewrite it, I've simply found other options.

 

Arcady,

I agree.

I have no problem with "filling in" a system, where there is no rule for something I want to model, or setting "campaign standards".

But, as far as actually tinkering with how the system works, or the rules themselves, (Cost of STR, SPEED chart, etc.) I just don't do it.

Excluding the scholars like Killer Shrike, who actually seem to analyse the side effects of their proposed changes, many people seem to just jump into "fixing" something that they have never really looked at enough to understand, in the overall context of the game.

 

I understand that there are people who understand the system much better than I do, who have found what they consider to be real flaws in it that could be corrected.

 

But I have also seen a fair number of posters saying things like:

"I bought Hero 5th last week. I like it, but I think that the SPD chart should be removed. I haven't actually played yet, but I don't think the SPD chart is realistic or would work in actual play."

 

Now I know that Hero is made to be tinkered with, but I see potential problems when newcomers do it without really trying the standard version.

 

In the game store:

Player A : Have you ever tried the Hero system?

Player B : Yeah, some friends of mine and I tried it a while back.

Player A : What did you think?

Player B : Well, it was a lot of trouble. First we got rid of that speed chart thing, then we made all the powers and stuff into feats, and we got rid of the 3d6 thing. It was a lot of work!

Player A : Well after all that, was it worth it?

Player B : Nah! If was just like playing D20, so we went back to that.

 

I just worry that people new to the system will make changes that unbalance the game, and then they, and their group, will get a bad impression of the system, not knowing that they were never really playing it.

 

So, to get back to the specific topic, I like Hero just fine "out of the box".

I sometimes try to come up with interesting power constructs that might push the envelope a bit, but as far as changing basic mechanics, I don't.

 

KA.

 

P.S.

Wildcat,

While there are posters here that are greatly respected for their knowledge, I don't think anyone pays that much attention to post count. I know that I don't. There are some posters whose names I recognize and respect, but that does not mean that I automatically agree with them. And it certainly doesn't mean that I automatically discount what new posters, or those with low post counts, have to say.

I don't think anyone around here wins any arguments by "pulling rank".

Either what you have to say is valid, or it isn't.

We seem to have avoided turning this into a schoolyard full of bullies and nerds.

This being an RPG website, let's face it, we are all the nerds.

So don't ever feel like people aren't taking you seriously because you choose to read more than post. And try not to take it personally when threads get derailed. I don't know who you would consider the most "powerful" poster around here, but whoever it is, use the Search to check out some of the threads they have started. I think you will find that they wander off topic just as much as anyone else's do. That is not a sign of "disrespect" it is just a sign of a lack of rigidity. The same way that a friend of yours might interrupt a serious discussion with an offhand comment, without meaning any offense.

 

When I have threads that I care about, and they seem to be getting off topic, I just usually post a response to one of the posts that was on-topic. That usually gets things back on track.

 

Also, I have seen cases where the "derailment" was a lot more productive than the original topic. Sometimes something you start will trigger someone else into a revelation on a related topic. I would hate to see things become so formal that we lost those posts, because everyone was too polite to interject, and sometimes didn't have the desire to start a new thread.

 

I guess my main point is, don't try to read too much into the nearly random activites on this board. Based on how long I have been here, my post count is relatively low.

Emulating Mr. Ed, I try to never speak unless I have something to say.

But I don't think this causes people to "look past" my posts. "Fame" can be a two-edged sword.

If Poster X has thousands of posts, and has expressed an opinion on something a few times, people who disagree may blow right past his posts, never realizing that somewhere along the line his opinion has changed.

You can be ignored for being famous even more quickly than you can for being unknown.

When I see a post from someone I have never seen before, I tend to look more closely at it, because I think that they are likely to have something new to contribute.

 

Best Wishes,

 

KA.

 

P.P.S.

I also have a low post count because my posts are so freaking long!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I guess my main point is, don't try to read too much into the nearly random activites on this board. Based on how long I have been here, my post count is relatively low.

Emulating Mr. Ed, I try to never speak unless I have something to say.

But I don't think this causes people to "look past" my posts. "Fame" can be a two-edged sword.

If Poster X has thousands of posts, and has expressed an opinion on something a few times, people who disagree may blow right past his posts, never realizing that somewhere along the line his opinion has changed.

You can be ignored for being famous even more quickly than you can for being unknown.

 

Obviously, KA's relatively few posts are appreciated - that's a very high REP he's garnered with those 900 or so posts. Long posts, short posts...some of us just can't shut up and/or spend WAY too much time on these boards.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I don't think anyone pays that much attention to post count.

 

Good Lord, I certainly hope not!

 

This being an RPG website, let's face it, we are all the nerds.

 

What? I joined to be respected and get laid! Damn!

 

 

 

 

 

More seriously, as always, KA, great points - and when you speak I think of it more like E.F. Hutton and not Mr. Ed!

 

(hmmm, I bet young whippersnappers - perhaps you, I don't recall your age - won't know what I mean by EF Hutton)

[zornwil]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Obviously' date=' KA's relatively few posts are appreciated - that's a very high REP he's garnered with those 900 or so posts. Long posts, short posts...some of us just can't shut up and/or spend WAY too much time on these boards.[/quote']

I wonder who can't shut up around here? (craning neck, wondering, who could it be?)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I wonder who can't shut up around here? (craning neck' date=' wondering, who could it be?) [/quote']

 

I refer solely to myself. Any other application is not intended by the designer.

 

And anyone who doesn't get the EF Hutton reference probably ahs no clue who Mr. Ed is either!

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

The bottom line, as far as I'm concerned, is DOJ's bottom line.

 

As long as they make enough money to keep the system alive, I'm happy.

[Mentor]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

The bottom line, as far as I'm concerned, is DOJ's bottom line.

 

As long as they make enough money to keep the system alive, I'm happy.

We are darned sure doing our part. I have two sons who are now part of our Champions team.

[Just Joe]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I don't do house rules.

 

I've always looked at it like the person at a boardgame who suddenly blurts out "well I say if you land on that square you get to draw two cards," or "well I wanna roll again."

But house rules aren't generally introduced in the middle of a game . . .

I won't play in a game if I'm handed a sheet of house rules.

Wow, that's extreme.

 

As far as the rest of what you write, it seems reasonable enough, but you must have found a lot better systems out there than I have. Admittedly, I haven't been looking much in the last decade or so, but from what I've seen, few systems are anywhere nearly as good as Hero. So switching systems has no appeal to me. But the idea that I can improve the system in terms of meeting the needs of a game I want to run seems perfectly reasonable. I would not try to persuade you to do the same if you have no interest in doing so, but I don't buy your arguments against tweaking the system.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

COM either needs to do something or be gotten rid of and handled via either limited PRE or Distinctive Feature as appropriate.

 

I played around with making COM into the power Glamour which would have different effects based on Appearance, but with Sensory Deception, it might just be a limited Self-Only Image-like effect.

 

I like Sensory Deception as a Metapower (that defines Images, Shapeshift, Darkness, and Invisibility) but I'm not sure I like it as the catch-all power. Maybe as a power category.

 

Teleportation and Extra Dimensional Movement should be combined into one base Power with different modifiers/adders similar to Clairsentience in scope.

 

Funny, it was that way in Champions II (+1/2 Adv: Extra Dimensional Movement), a little known rule was that to cross one dimensional barrier was 10". So far away dimensions took several hops or a large teleport distance.

 

The Object Creation rules for DH should also be added to the rules; they cover a current gap in the system that is only manageable currently with a kludge of Entangle or Transform.

 

Oddly enough, I would nominate Summoning, giving it the power to Summon objects as well as creatures. Summoning a mundane thing (bucket of water) would be 1 point. Summoning a useful everyday thing (rope, hammer) might be 15 points. Summoning a very useful item (equivalent to a horse, or the key to this lock) would be 30 points. Rare or expensive item might be 60 points or more. (A 300 point demon should be a rare and expensive item.) Only one item is summonned per casting, +5 points for each doubling.

 

Gliding is just a limited form of Flight. So is Swinging. Combine them into one Power, "Aerial Movement"

 

While at it, fix Running so that "Only In Contact With Surface" Flight doesnt make more sense.

 

I once tried to write up a power called simply Move and tried to fit all the regular and esoteric movement powers into Move with Advantages and Limitations, It didn't work out very well, but it was an interesting excerise. Perhaps I'll work on it again.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I refer solely to myself. Any other application is not intended by the designer.

 

And anyone who doesn't get the EF Hutton reference probably ahs no clue who Mr. Ed is either!

I dunno, Mr. Ed does get play on TV Land and the like, time to time.

 

And btw, you do not post too often at all, I'm always pleased to see your contribution in a thread.

[Gadodel]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I was a D&D player, exclusively for a long time and then I switched to D20 Modern. What Modern taught me was that customization, flexibility and versatility was not only something that I was lacking-but missing altogether. I wanted to do things, but couldn't-within the D20 ruleset.

 

Dont' get me wrong, D&D is a damn fine game.

 

Though, once I bought, opened and read HERO 5E...I found everything that I really ever wanted to do and more. D20 Modern is good, but it suffers from being tainted by the D&Disms that were starting to frustrate me. HERO allows for more compromise and 'compromise' can keep any group ticking for a long time.

[arcady]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

We all have different tastes, but one thing I will say and be firm on -

 

Ya'll got to quote my ENTIRE post?

 

Just pick the parts you want to jump on me most for, or the parts that boil down your objection or agreement the most, and quote that.

 

Anyway, I've yet to read anything since I posted, I just scanned and noticed I was quoted in full at least twice.

 

Now going back to read.

[arcady]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

While there are posters here that are greatly respected for their knowledge' date=' I don't think anyone pays that much attention to post count.[/quote']Well, there are people with over 10,000 posts that pop up in threads I read from time to time that I do not recognize at all. I just figure they're spending the entire day over the "[insert politician here] is the anti-[insert diety here]" threads...

 

So... if your post count gets high enough, I stop taking you seriously.