Hero System is Just Alright With Me

[Mentor]

I have noticed that a lot of the threads here deal with changing major facets of the Hero System rules.

 

Accepting that (paraphrasing Lincoln) you can't please all of the people all of the time, and that nobody and nothing is perfect, does anybody else out there in Hero land feel that the game system is substantially (say 90%) well put together?

 

I, for one, do. There are even provisions for tweaks based on special effect and campaign individuality built right in when needed. How realistic can a game with flying superstrong guys and levitating glowing girls firing bolts of energy at meglomaniacs using their psionic mental domination on innocents be?

[Warp9]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I have noticed that a lot of the threads here deal with changing major facets of the Hero System rules.

 

Accepting that (paraphrasing Lincoln) you can't please all of the people all of the time, and that nobody and nothing is perfect, does anybody else out there in Hero land feel that the game system is substantially (say 90%) well put together?

I think that it is well put together.

 

How realistic can a game with flying superstrong guys and levitating glowing girls firing bolts of energy at meglomaniacs using their psionic mental domination on innocents be?

Is "realistic," in this case, meant to mean our common experience here on this planet? Or is it meant to mean anything that might be possible in this reality?

[proditor]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Yeah, Hero is just fine by me as well. I haven't needed to make any sweeping changes to any of the games I run, I just hand out the campaign guidelines and we're off to the races.

[Old Man]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Hero is fine right out of the box. I did not make any big changes to it for my Fantasy Hero campaign.

[BlackSword]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I like Hero right out of the book. We don't use any house rules, but use a few of the optional rules from the sidebars. Depending on the genre I am considering adding the Deadlands/RDU_Neil chit system for luck.

 

A friend and I were talking about the Hero games at Gencon though. Some of them only have passing resemblance to Hero and were listed as Hero games.

[Blue]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

There is very little I would change.

 

On the "not perfect" thing, my gripe is well known (Mind Control and the ease of breakout rolls). But it's easily house ruled into something workable by both players and GMs. So I'd say more like 99+%

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I'd say that it's a very workeable system, more than 80% "just fine" and 90%+ for Super Hero games. The only house rules I regularly use are for a particular genre or sub-genre, and Steve has been including some very good suggestions even for those sorts of tweaks in some of the newer books.

 

From a marketing POV I'd say that hiding the engine a bit more would be a good idea; my math-phobic wife has been playing Hero almost as long as I have and she still stops in the middle of combat to ask exactly what a particular set of advantages means.

 

For some people suggesting changes to the system ("Lets get rid of all the characteristics, skills, powers and tallents and do everything with Perks!") is a game in and of itself.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I'd say a good deal more than 90% OK, because it is essentially a toolkit. The system is built to encompass house rules. I don't know anyone who doesn't have at least one minor change if not dozens of major ones. They're all still Hero.

 

F'rinstance. Nowhere in the main rulebook does it say, "divide all power costs by 3 for magic spells". But that's what Turakian Age does, and it's undeniably Hero. Hero is designed to be tweaked to taste.

 

Keith "the mechanic" Curtis

[Checkmate]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

While a bit off topic, some of the things OddHat stuck a cord in me and I just feel the need to vent:

 

Is it just me, or are the Talents in some of the new books downright idiotic? I started getting a funny feeling with Fantasy Hero. Talking to animals shouldn't be a talent, I thought, but whatever. I finally saw red in Dark Champions. Now someone explain to me how the H E double hockey stick this is a Talent:

 

Skill Master cost: 6 points; +3 with any one skill. Well No kidding??? How is that a talent and not just common sense?

 

It's crap like that that bugs me about Hero System.

[proditor]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

While a bit off topic, some of the things OddHat stuck a cord in me and I just feel the need to vent:

 

Is it just me, or are the Talents in some of the new books downright idiotic? I started getting a funny feeling with Fantasy Hero. Talking to animals shouldn't be a talent, I thought, but whatever. I finally saw red in Dark Champions. Now someone explain to me how the H E double hockey stick this is a Talent:

 

Skill Master cost: 6 points; +3 with any one skill. Well No kidding??? How is that a talent and not just common sense?

 

It's crap like that that bugs me about Hero System.

I'd be willing to bet that the "Skill Master" Talent is Hero's way of making shell shocked d20 folk* feel welcome. The Talents in FH had that somewhat comforting "feats" feel to them, and I have no doubt it was a considered move. I have no issue with them one way or another as many of them highlight a new way to do something that I hadn't thought of before.

 

EDIT: *by shellshocked, I mean the folk who have never played Hero and are intimidated by the obvious framework of the rules. The Talents help make it a little more transparent.

[Checkmate]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Wow, good call. I had never considered that before. When you put it that way, they don't bug me like they used to

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

"Substantially all" works for me. I'd say well over 90% of the system works.

[Blackjack]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Just to throw in my two cents: I believe HERO system is about 95%.

 

It's important to take into account that NO game system can simulate the "real world" accurately. Any system that tried would be so hopelessly complicated as to be unplayable... One of the beauties of HERO is that it allows for rules to simulate any game in any genre with a good balance of playablity and scope. In fact, the rules themselves say, in effect, that the GM can ignore or modify the rules to fit his or her own needs.

 

Personally, I LIKE the Speed Chart. Certainly the obvious advantage is to characters who pay points to have a high SPD (in lieu of spending them elsewhere). However, it has other uses as well. My favorite example is how the speed chart, DEX rankings, and Holding rules affect Martial Artist combat. They give martial combats a strong sense of timing and cadence that is very "real world."

 

I like the difference between Killing and Normal attacks, even though it was nerve-wracking for me when I was first learning the system. Again, though it takes some getting used to, once you do, the flexibility of multiple options (one STUN-focused, the other BODY-focused) for doing damage in combat is invaluable.

 

Bottom line, while I certainly respect the points made by people who propose to "change this" or "drop that," I tend to side with the way it is until and unless convinced otherwise. Then again, you can make whatever rules changes you want in your own game - that's another beauty of the sytem.

[Mentor]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Great points, guys and gals.

 

I just recalled another reason that I like the system.

 

The admonition "usable only with GM's permission" gives the right balance of authority to the rules and the individual campaign. Understanding the need for a consistent construction baseline without making all characters cookie cutter look alikes is a real strength, IMHO.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

While a bit off topic, some of the things OddHat stuck a cord in me and I just feel the need to vent:

 

Is it just me, or are the Talents in some of the new books downright idiotic? I started getting a funny feeling with Fantasy Hero. Talking to animals shouldn't be a talent, I thought, but whatever. I finally saw red in Dark Champions. Now someone explain to me how the H E double hockey stick this is a Talent:

 

Skill Master cost: 6 points; +3 with any one skill. Well No kidding??? How is that a talent and not just common sense?

 

It's crap like that that bugs me about Hero System.

Talents are convenient ways of "snap shotting" abilities, and have particular relevance in campaigns where characters are not allowed to purchase Powers directly without some campaign-approved enabler (like a Magic System or Racial abilities).

 

But some things require the Power rules to model as intended in the HERO System and if the Character can't just take Powers as they wish then that is where Talents come in handy. The GM basically says heres the version of that ability Im cool with, and you cant tamper with it.

 

It's also a handy group for placing things that arent quite Skills and arent quite Powers either.

 

As far as the Skill Master Talent (and other Skill oriented Talents, if any) I agree, it's pretty stupid. It is nominally useful I suppose for people that just dont get how Skills work, but it really is kind of WTH? for me too.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

...does anybody else out there in Hero land feel that the game system is substantially (say 90%) well put together?

I'd say more like 99+%

...more than 80% "just fine" and 90%+ for Super Hero games.

I'd say a good deal more than 90% OK' date=' because it is essentially a toolkit.[/quote']

I'd say well over 90% of the system works.

I believe HERO system is about 95%.

 

Fantastic guys! It's great to see so much agreement.

 

Now, which 90+% is well put together?

 

 

 

 

The point, of course, is not that these 'reworking' or 'polishing' threads are begun because of the bulk 90+%. It's that varying 1 or 2% that each of us individually feel doesn't work right that cause those debates and discussions. I think a huge majority of the posting members would agree that the HERO System is "well put together."

 

I'd personally say about 96.32% of the system is just great, but that's just an approximation.

 

[ParitySoul]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I personaly like Steven's Cutting the Diamond example. I think HERO could use a little chipping here and there, but the core mechanics are sound. Just wish the Autofire rules had a flow chart. Heh.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Fantastic guys! It's great to see so much agreement.

 

Now, which 90+% is well put together?

 

In fairness, I would hope the posters to the Hero boards would generally think the system is good...

 

But my experience is that Hero system fans are very happy with their system of choice (evidence, of course, of their superior taste and intellects).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Hero System gets 100 percent for me. The only house rule I have is that Stun Only attacks still do Knockback unless they take the limitation (I would build a rubber bullet as a Stun Only Physical Blast ... while it probably wouldn't knock anybody down, it obviously still has pressure and can be used to push a button, for example).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I love the HERO System as it is, warts and all, and one of the things I love about it is that it is pretty flexible to tampering by individual GMs, and that includes kit-bashing the rules into very different formats if desired.

 

I play the game pretty straight myself, with my only major house rule being a different way to do Killing Damage that mitigates the STUN Lottery.

 

However, objectively there are some clunky bits here and there that I wouldnt mind seeing go away either. Some are based pretty solidly in supportable issues, and some are preferential.

 

For example, Mechanically:

 

I think Damage Shield should go away and be relplaced by the new Trigger rules from DH. Just do away with it, as it is wholly redundant and unneeded.

 

STR should either have less impact on Figureds or cost 2 points per point.

 

EDIT: SPD should be based on ((INT + DEX) / 20) + 1 instead of DEX/10; INT should cost 2 points per 1 point to reflect.

 

COM either needs to do something or be gotten rid of and handled via either limited PRE or Distinctive Feature as appropriate.

 

The STUN Lottery needs to be corrected for.

 

Breakout Rolls are too easy; a better way of balancing Mental Powers needs to be adopted.

 

Teleportation and Extra Dimensional Movement should be combined into one base Power with different modifiers/adders similar to Clairsentience in scope.

 

The Object Creation rules for DH should also be added to the rules; they cover a current gap in the system that is only manageable currently with a kludge of Entangle or Transform.

 

Preferentially:

 

Id like to see some naming conventions changed for clarity.

 

For example, it really bugs me that positive Power modifiers are called "Advantages", but the logical opposite term of "Disadvantages" is applied to a completely different mechanic and the term "Limitations" is used instead for negative Power modifiers. I would rather they were called "Disadvantages", and have what are currently called "Disadvantages be called "Challenges" or something similar.

 

In a similar vein, it bothers me that "Energy Blast" is called "Energy Blast". That's just superhero roots showing. I think that there should be a single "Attack" Power, which is defined as being Ranged or STR Based, and vs Energy or Physical when purchased. "Killing Damage" would be a +2 Advantage.

 

Similarly "Force Fields" are not necessarily "Force" based; Force is a SFX, not a Base Power. Neither is it necessarily a "Field". Along those lines, Armor and FF both are redundant as is Damage Resistance. I would rather see all three rolled into a single Power called "Damage Mitigation" or reuse "Damage Resistance" since it's being coallesced. By default the Power would cost 2 pts per 1 pt of Resistant Defense, be 0 END, Constant, and Persistant. To make a "FF" style version take a "Screen" Limitation for (-1), making it cost END, be visible, and non-Persistant. Applying it to normal PD and ED is handled either via an Adder at the rate of .5 per point if additional Defense is being applied, or via a (-2) Limitation "Base Defense Only" if not.

 

Similarly "Force Wall" should be renamed to a SFX neutral label, like "Screen".

 

Under the current rules Shapeshift and Invisibility are redundant -- Invisibility is functionally a subset of Shapeshift -- the ability to shift into a form that is not visible to multiple senses. Further, Shapeshift isnt really necessarily about literally changing shapes any more -- thats a specific SFX of the effect. What it really does now is deceive senses in a fashion very similar to Images. Further, Images and Darkness overlap; what is Darkness but a very limited Image? All four of these Powers should be combined into a single "Sensory Deception" Power. The Sensory Deception Power would Cost END, be Constant, but similar to Density Increase not visible by default despite costing END (since visible sense deception is pretty convoluted and silly). It has no range and an effect of Personal by default. The Power affects one Sense by default, and each additional Sense affected is bought via adders (as is done now for the various powers). Further by default only a single Sensory Phenomena is available (like Light or Invisibility or Coatrack, opaque area (Darkness effect) etc). To affect a larger area, apply AoE. If the Power can only be used to project a false appearance of oneself, take Self Only (-1/2). To have more Sensory Phenomena, as an adder use the model available for Shapeshift currently; 4, then group, then any or whatever it is. If the Sensory Phenomena can be perceived via a PER Roll, take a Limitation "Detectable" with a sliding scale of Lim value based on PER Penalty -- ie

PER Mod	Lim Val
+7	-2
+5	-1 3/4
+3	-1 1/2
+1	-1 1/4
+/-0	-1
-1	-3/4
-3	-1/2
-5	-1/4

; etc etc. One Power for Sensory Deception is very doable.

 

Gliding is just a limited form of Flight. So is Swinging. Combine them into one Power, "Aerial Movement"

 

While at it, fix Running so that "Only In Contact With Surface" Flight doesnt make more sense.

 

Summon should have more finely grained definition for summoning different types of things at the same time.

 

And so on.

[Old Man]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

 

SPD should be based on ((INT/5)+(DEX/5)) + 1 instead of DEX/10; INT should cost 2 points per 1 point to reflect.

 

 

uh....

I don't think you really meant (INT/5)+(DEX/5) +1 right? That would result in an average SPD of 5!

Anyway, why not use just (INT+DEX)/10?

[Agent X]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I have noticed that a lot of the threads here deal with changing major facets of the Hero System rules.

 

Accepting that (paraphrasing Lincoln) you can't please all of the people all of the time, and that nobody and nothing is perfect, does anybody else out there in Hero land feel that the game system is substantially (say 90%) well put together?

 

I, for one, do. There are even provisions for tweaks based on special effect and campaign individuality built right in when needed. How realistic can a game with flying superstrong guys and levitating glowing girls firing bolts of energy at meglomaniacs using their psionic mental domination on innocents be?

I love the game and can play it without any tweaks whatsoever. I've got nothing against house rules but I don't get why some of the folks on the boards just don't start from scratch and build their own system.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Other than a few of the more arcane wonky bits, and some obscure rules, I think it's fine. The only things I houseruled for my fantasy game are there to account for the lack of magic (rules for equipment quality, now that it's important to see just how good a nonmagical sword could get), and rolling hit location before attack against targets who might want to Abort (to tone the lethality down just a tad, and provide the "there's an axe coming at my head, I'd better duck" effect).

 

Actually, the one main rules thing I don't like is the lack of guidance about dealing with XP "splurging." I use a slightly modified version of what Killer Shrike (I think it was him) suggested - 1 XP to a single ability per session, and one point automatically gets put into the "training pool" each session which can be used for intensive training sessions (for example, to allow a martial art to be picked up at a basic level all at once).

[Talon]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

Bah, 40%! No, 30%!

 

Seriously though, while there are many things I do change, and many (although fewer) that I would change in the core rules, Hero as a whole is quite alright. It's just that a) any sort of "toolkit" invites tinkering, and there are some areas where 5th Edition is behind "state of the art" in RPGs (unified mechanic being a big one).

 

It's not possible to create a game system that everyone will agree with -- but that doesn't matter, as it is possible to create one that /I/ agree with.

[Checkmate]

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

 

I have to agree. A lot of people change or make up rules because Hero calls thier stat something else. For instance in one game I was thinking about playing, we were going to use the setting Vampire the Masquerade. One of the GM's (there were 3) wanted to make a new stat called Bloodpool (or blood points I don't remember) but the way it actually worked was just like END. The other 2 GM's ended up agreeing with me and talked the third into it...and I still didn't end up playing after all the fuss I started (still feel bad about that). I think people are two quick to make up new rules instead of trying to make what's there work.

 

Some of the things I don't like about Hero System are: If someone jumps out of a plan it falls faster than if the person flew it into the ground. When the pilot is flying, the plane only goes on it's or the pilots phases whichever is lower. When the plane in unmanned it goes every segment. I realize there is no real way to fix this, you just take the good with the bad.

 

Damage Shield is WAY too expensive for what it does in 5th edition, I use 4th ed. rules for this.

 

Hero Designer is a GM's worst nightmare. With all those limitations right there at easy reach, players have a tendency to just start piling them on. Now I have to go though each one and explain that Iron Man's armor can't take the limitation "Real Weapon". Not only that, but with all the math being done for you in a second, Min/Max'ing is even easier. You can tell in a second how much a certain limit would help reduce the cost and sometimes get an extra die for no cost etc.

 

Killer,

Some of what you say makes sense (invisiblity IS shapeshift, never thought about that before) but I disagree with the power attack/Energy Blast. The name should probably be changed, but I would leave everything the same except call it Ranged Attack. So you would have Killing Attack: Ranged, Killing Attack:Hand-to-Hand, Attack:Ranged, Attack: Hand-to-Hand

 

I also agree with calling them Limitations not disadvantages. It Limits the power doesn't necesarily disadvantage the power.