Unbalanced Heroes

[Legendsmiths]

Often times in comics are more powerful than others, but typically the more powerful heroes have greater disadvantages.

 

I implemented something in my current DC game that seems to address this, so I decided to extend it to supers. Here's my thought:

 

Start a campaign at Low-Powered (150 base, 100 disads) - Classic Champs if you will. However, you allow more than 100 pts in disads, but only at half value AND the largest disads have to come from that overage. This means that if a hero has a 40 pt disad and 5 20 pt disads, the 5 account for the 100 pts, and the 40 pt is worth half (for 20 pts). I'm not sure if that restriction is necessary, but I think you get the point.

 

This allows players willing to take significant disads, typically vulnerabilities and susceptibilities, to gain more power than the campaign generally allows. It kind of extends the purpose of disads, which I understood to be providing greater power based on limitations to the character beyond the campaign base.

 

Similarly, you could allow powers that are greater than the campaign limits in terms of active points and such, to cost double after the max is reached. An 80 pt power in a 60 pt cap would cost 100 pts (80-60=20*2 + 60).

 

Thoughts? Done before? No way?

 

Thanks.

[OddHat]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I think it's easier to do this from a limitations point of view, if you want to do it at all. Requiring the limitation to be part of the characters Reputation will help make the overpowered hero suffer.

 

Example:

 

The campaign has an Active Point Limit of 60 Points, unless you have a crippling limitation on all of your primary powers that is mentioned as part of your reputation. In that case, the active point limit is 90.

 

Muscleboy has a STR of 60 with no limits. He can't start out any stronger, but he always has that STR of 60.

 

Upright Man has a STR of 90, but for some reason is constantly telling reporters "My vast powers are completely useless within ten feet of Smirnoff Vodka." Soon every punk expecting to meet Upright Man is carrying a hip flask of Smirnoff, his main foe becomes The Staggering Menace (a brick who gets his powers from drinking Smirnoff, and whose breath cripples Upright Man), etc.

 

No changes to the game engine needed at all, same effect.

 

Personally I always hated this gimmick, but I can see why it might fit in a Silver Age game.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Definitely more fitting for silver age than anything else, which was my goal.

 

I like your idea of limitations, and I think that is a better way to handle anything greater than the cap on powers, but I still want to allow more disads to get a potential "kryptonite effect".

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Instead of "more powerful", you could also look at it as "more versatile".

 

The more types of powers a character has, the more odd disads and limits they should have.

 

GM: What do you do?

Player 1: I run real fast, and get all my powers from being speed-guy.

GM: OK Flash.

 

GM: What do you do?

Player 2: I summon massive cosmic forces that allow me to do all kinds of things - I can be super strong via TK, make big blasts, put up big force walls, and do other odd things.

GM: OK GL - but you need to make it through a focus. Oh, and you can't affect yellow or wood. Take your pick.

 

GM: What do you do?

Player 3: Everything. Super strong and fast, fly, heat vision, x-ray vision and other myriad super senses, super breath, super kidneys...

GM: OK "Superman". Only in yellow sun, all kinds of strange effects from Kryptonite, various vulnerabilities - kryptonite, magic.

 

GM: What do you do?

Player 4: I'm a stretchy guy who's a good detective.

GM: Welcome to the team, Elongated Man.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

If you want to see some crippling disads and varying power levels, make the game X base points, with no limit on disads. Be strict on disads though - don't allow excessive linking of disads (Hunted by X, Hates X, Enraged vs X, DF: Guy who hates X, etc.). Maybe allow max 1 hunted, 2 major psych lims (rest are just "personality") to encourage more susceptibilities, vulnerabilities, etc.

 

You may end up with some low-powered folks with few limits/disads, and other massive point-hogs who'll fold in the right circumstances.

[Telefrog]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Personally, I go with GM's choice. You are in charge, after all. If it's interesting and makes sense in the context of your group - go for it!

[Enforcer84]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

They tip over.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

As long as you're comfortable with the players, I'd take a run at it. With an untested group, I'd be concerned about perception that either the GM is screwing over the unbalanced characters too much (wah wah! cry the unbalanced characters' players) or not enough (wah wah! cry the balanced characters' players) . As long as the players can be relied on not to anticipate favortism, it sounds like a good Silver Age structure.

 

Just be sure BalancedMan gets lots of chances to shine by overcoming Unbalanced Man's weakness on his behalf.

[OddHat]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

They tip over.

 

See attached example of unbalanced hero team.

[Guest rbezold]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

For what it's worth, I like your idea, and I have done it before, but I could never get my players to go along with it.

[Blue]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

See attached example of unbalanced hero team.

Unless it's their superpower... to stay upright despite gravity.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

The really freaky thing is, I was just pondering this while I was in the shower. I wouldn't call this 'unbalanced heroes', since generally, to HERO folks, unbalanced refers to the guy who dropped all 350 of his points into Energy Blast. I admit the only re-name I can think for it, 'varied power-level team', doesn't quite roll off the tongue.

 

I was considering looking at it from this angle. Your base points are 200 points, but no Disadvantage cap aside from a certain cap per category. So, to use the Justice League example, Batman wouldn't be as powerful (in raw terms) as Superman, but that's because Batman doesn't have Vulnerability to Magic, Susceptible to Kryptonite and all those other 'super' disadvantages to give him more than 350 points.

[OddHat]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

The really freaky thing is, I was just pondering this while I was in the shower. I wouldn't call this 'unbalanced heroes', since generally, to HERO folks, unbalanced refers to the guy who dropped all 350 of his points into Energy Blast. I admit the only re-name I can think for it, 'varied power-level team', doesn't quite roll off the tongue.

 

I was considering looking at it from this angle. Your base points are 200 points, but no Disadvantage cap aside from a certain cap per category. So, to use the Justice League example, Batman wouldn't be as powerful (in raw terms) as Superman, but that's because Batman doesn't have Vulnerability to Magic, Susceptible to Kryptonite and all those other 'super' disadvantages to give him more than 350 points.

 

I find that combat power levels tend to vary widely anyway if I let my players do what they want. One will sink all of his points into stats and end up as "Superman", one will buy every skill and end up almost useless in combat but great as an investigator, one will buy a massive VPP and end up with pathetic defenses, etc. I expect that this varies widely by group, down to the classic power-gamers group where every PC has three Multipowers.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

The problem is, skill-only characters tend to be as pricey or *more* than power-based characters.

[OddHat]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

The problem is' date=' skill-only characters tend to be as pricey or *more* than power-based characters.[/quote']

 

Word.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Well, this is encouraging on a couple of levels. First, it is recognized as a Silver Age mechanism. Second, most seem to think that it can work with mature players who are into this Silver Age trope.

 

I heartily agree that it is important for balanced man to overcome unbalanced man's excessive disads, not unlike Batman saving Superman at times, but also ensuring that there are challenges clearly for unbalanced man.

 

This extends to so much of the entertainment we see. Buffy, Angel, Justice League... all have central characters that are more powerful than any other hero, yet the shows are as much about the non-central heroes as not.

 

In my current DC campaign there is a lot of occult/horror/monsters. No vulgar magic though, all BtVS/Cthulhian style occultism. However, characters can be "demon touched" or "chaos marked" and can purchase abilities that represent that. When using such abilities they exhibit decidedly unnatural appearance (e.g. black eyes, pallor, etc.). These abilities must be offset by appropriate "demonic" disads, such as Susceptibility to Holy Ground, Vulnerability to Hellfire, and the mandatory first disad of Distinctive Features: Demon Touched (not detectable by normal means).

 

This has worked very well, and the players seem to dig it, especially because those disads carry enough issues with them to balance out the powers they enable.

 

I then started reading Astro City (which is the best Silver Age comic ever) and was getting pumped for some Silver Age goodness, leading me to this idea of Balanced Inequality (is that a better title?).

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Oh, this also helps address the skill cost issue. Skill-man can spend all of his base points on skills and then round himself out with some powers using some appropriate disads.

 

I do agree that there has to be GM oversight to make this work.

 

Another option might be a Amber-esque bidding system to deside who gets to be the best in what areas (warfare, strength, toughness, skill, personality, technology, speed, mind, metamorph). Not sure that could work, but it's another tac.

 

The idea is to make the assembly of the team as much fun as building the team and possibly providing some character insight along the way.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I can see where you're going with this, mudpyr8, and if it's your goal to attempt to create characters of differing point levels who "balance out" with each other in some way I'd say that this approach is as good as any. However, IMHO it's pushing the ideal of character balance a little farther than it really needs to go. Personally I don't agree that more powerful characters in comics tend to have bigger Disadvantages, unless you count the classic Vulnerabilities and Dependencies of some of the older characters. Most often, more powerful characters are just plain more powerful.

 

Theron Bretz wrote a very fine article in Digital HERO #3 called "Pointless Champions." The gist of it was to let players create their characters exactly as they conceive them (subject to GM approval), without worrying about how many points are involved, and let in-play balance be handled by the niches they fill on the team and how the GM sets up the challenges they face. That may be a more intuitive and perhaps more difficult approach, but IMO it's more reflective of how teams with mixed power levels are handled in the comics.

 

You can find a sizeable excerpt from that article here.

 

Nonetheless, some gamers prefer that the numbers balance out, and that's fair. As I said, if that's your goal your approach seems reasonable.

[OddHat]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I agree that Bretz's article would be a great way to go on this. Much closer to the way things tend to work in comics and films.

 

As far as Buffy is concerned, it could be argued that only Xander and Cordelia were really built on fewer points than the rest of the gang by season three or four. Willow had more skills and a very high occultism VPP (could be changed in combat and had side effects in seasons 5 and later), Giles had tons of KS and contacts, Oz had a multiform, contacts, a vehicle, skills and tallents, an Spike had a long list of powers, contacts, and skills. Maybe Buffy was just a munchkin combat monster.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

OddHat: Honestly, I address BtVS with Cordelia and Xander having LOTS of Luck to balance out the point discrepency, plus slightly fewer disads (i.e. if the campaign were 100 base and 100 disads, they only took 50 disads, and then spent those points on 10d6 luck).

 

Liaden: Thanks. I was definitely approaching it as an option for games where the players weren't willing to go the pointless route, which I agree is a great way to handle it. The challenge with the pointless solution lies in the players that are not willing to not be munchkins no matter what you say to them.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

What I want to know is. . . is there really anything wrong with just giving each PC the same number of points?? Is there something offensive about the idea that each character might be built to the same point total??

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

What I want to know is. . . is there really anything wrong with just giving each PC the same number of points?? Is there something offensive about the idea that each character might be built to the same point total??

 

For my part I see nothing wrong with that. It's the default Champions approach, and has worked just fine for many people over many years.

 

Thing is, there will always be gamers who would like to have the equivalent of Thor and Hawkeye on the same team, just as the comics do. Who don't want to wait a long time for their characters to gain experience and become powerful, because their concept is that they already are powerful. Who want to be able to integrate a new, relatively inexperienced PC (and maybe player) into an established group.

 

There's nothing wrong with those ideas, either, nor with exploring options for how to achieve them.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I'm also trying out a contributions-based point system for my new campaign - see this thread. Adjust base pts/disads/values of contributions to taste.

[OddHat]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I'm also trying out a contributions-based point system for my new campaign - see this thread. Adjust base pts/disads/values of contributions to taste.

 

Very good approach.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

For my part I see nothing wrong with that. It's the default Champions approach, and has worked just fine for many people over many years.

 

Thing is, there will always be gamers who would like to have the equivalent of Thor and Hawkeye on the same team, just as the comics do. Who don't want to wait a long time for their characters to gain experience and become powerful, because their concept is that they already are powerful. Who want to be able to integrate a new, relatively inexperienced PC (and maybe player) into an established group.

 

There's nothing wrong with those ideas, either, nor with exploring options for how to achieve them.

 

Then why not have one character spend his points on powerful superpowers, and the other on skills, equipment, and other things??