Unbalanced Heroes

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Meta: I agree that the balanced point system is just fine, I prefer it. I'm not trying redefine how the system works, but discussing a way to model the structure of Silver Age supers teams.

 

Giant Man and Thor are not equal point value characters. Hulk and Wasp are not equal characters. So, how do you model that?

 

One option is the Pointless Champions system, which I like. However, some players prefer a more accountable system, which is what I'm looking to craft. Simply one option of many.

[OddHat]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Meta: I agree that the balanced point system is just fine, I prefer it. I'm not trying redefine how the system works, but discussing a way to model the structure of Silver Age supers teams.

 

Giant Man and Thor are not equal point value characters. Hulk and Wasp are not equal characters. So, how do you model that?

 

One option is the Pointless Champions system, which I like. However, some players prefer a more accountable system, which is what I'm looking to craft. Simply one option of many.

 

Giant Man and Wasp both have huge skill lists and small gadget pools. Early Thor and Hulk both had multiforms, with a combat monster with no skills sharing time with a normal human with a good length skill list. So, early on, they arguably might have been built on the same point totals.

 

Just to play devil's advocate.

[JmOz]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Exactly: Let's look at the original 5 Avengers, as of issue 1, I bet I could do them all on 350 and be convincing:

 

Iron Man: His armor was not all that back then, some DEF, extra Running, a little flight, and TK, EB's?

 

Hulk: A Multiforming Brick/Combat Monster if ever there was one

 

Ant-Man Shinking, OIF Armor, Huge lists of Sci skills, OIF Mental Helmet to control Insects (What is the common ego of an ant?), and an Ant Follower (Flying Ant)...Again what is the cost of an ANT?

 

Wasp: Flight, Shinking, EB, Insect Telepathy: Not a problem

 

Thor: Okay, all his powers back then were IAF or OAF and for the most part he was a Flying Brick with a gimick back then

[OddHat]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Thor: Okay' date=' all his powers back then were IAF or OAF and for the most part he was a Flying Brick with a gimick back then[/quote']

 

Here, issue 1 Thor on 350 points; just give him a few minor tweaks to get Blake. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22008&highlight=Thumper+God

[Agent X]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I bet I could make some pretty expensive versions of Silver Age Henry Pym and Silver Age Hawkeye to go along with Silver Age Thor. Hmmm, when I get that spare time I've been looking for I may just give it a go.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Well, Pym had a cosmic gadget pool for a time, and Hawkeye seems to have about 6d6 of Luck. . .

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Hawkeye seems to have about 6d6 of Luck. . .

 

 

Boy, he blew his roll twice in a roll, then, to get written by Austen, then Bendis... and look where it's got him.

[tenscales]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I am not one to be solely pointing other players of having unbalanced heroes, I am also guilty as a player and maybe as a DM.

Based on the advice of many great advice givers on this website, I created a Jean Grey-Phoenix sort of character.

 

Had mental powers of high strength (all at x5 END cost to bring it to a low cost), a single multiform linked to a Aid and Absorption (5 / year return rate) feeding it to high level, an END reserve with charges, and a bunch of other stuff.

DM took a look and stated concept was OK, playability was none due to its brokeness or unbalancing ability at start.

 

It looked like something that could bring the house down literally but will never happen, sad to say.

It was fun creating COSMOS.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Boy' date=' he blew his roll twice in a roll, then, to get written by Austen, then Bendis... and look where it's got him.[/quote']

 

Nah, getting killed off by Bendis wasn't a blown Luck roll, that was the *successful* one. . .

[Spectre]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

It's the Job of the GM to make sure there aren't unbalanced characters. There are lots of ways to keep characters balanced. I, as a GM, set standard values for the major aspects(CV, SPD, DC, DEF, ect...) I work very closely with my players when they create characters. If one guy wants to go over the DC, I make him reduce OCV and/or SPD. If a character wants to have a high SPD and/or OCV, I make sure his DC is lower. Characters with high DEF have lower DCV. Character with low DCV get higher DEF. I also closely monitor powers and power advantages. If I have a person that is creating an unbalanced combination(desolid + big attack with affect physical world), I just point out that it's not acceptable and it must be changed. If the player doesn't like it, then he can find a new game. If a player insits on having some ridiculous conglomeration of uber-effective powers, then my group will be better off without him/her. In nearly 15 years of gaming, I've never had a probelm with this. I've had to ask a couple of players to leave, and most of the time that's all it take to get them to play somthing reasonable. Everyone in my game is equal, everyone has the ability to positively contribute to the team. Everyone has different abilites and skill sets, but no one person will ever be able to do everything, and no person will ever feel like they can do nothing. Everyone has a fair shake, and that is becuase I enforce balance.

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

As long as you're comfortable with the players, I'd take a run at it. With an untested group, I'd be concerned about perception that either the GM is screwing over the unbalanced characters too much (wah wah! cry the unbalanced characters' players) or not enough (wah wah! cry the balanced characters' players) . As long as the players can be relied on not to anticipate favortism, it sounds like a good Silver Age structure.

 

Just be sure BalancedMan gets lots of chances to shine by overcoming Unbalanced Man's weakness on his behalf.

 

I agree. It's not a problem if your players are any good and if the GM writes a decent adventure that gives Aquaman a chance to shine when the villain takes to the sea, and Batman has a mystery to solve, and only the Atom can solve the riddle of the shrinking bank vaults. And so on. Easy!

 

 

--Kap

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I am not one to be solely pointing other players of having unbalanced heroes, I am also guilty as a player and maybe as a DM.

Based on the advice of many great advice givers on this website, I created a Jean Grey-Phoenix sort of character.

 

Had mental powers of high strength (all at x5 END cost to bring it to a low cost), a single multiform linked to a Aid and Absorption (5 / year return rate) feeding it to high level, an END reserve with charges, and a bunch of other stuff.

DM took a look and stated concept was OK, playability was none due to its brokeness or unbalancing ability at start.

 

It looked like something that could bring the house down literally but will never happen, sad to say.

It was fun creating COSMOS.

 

I wouldn't have allowed that in my game either. Maybe it would work in a solo series, but not on a team unless you can really rely on the player not to eff the game up.

 

--Kap

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Did someone spill a barrel of radioactive waste in a thread cemetery or something?

[Greywind]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Dunno. I smell noob.

[Orion]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

When I first found this forum, I went back and read a lot of dead threads. I badly wanted to resurrect many of them, and did for just a couple. For the most part I didn't, just because I suspected comments like the above would be forthcoming. Just because it was once discussed in the past doesn't mean it cannot be discussed again, or that a newbie won't have something valuable to say.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Just because it was once discussed in the past doesn't mean it cannot be discussed again' date=' or that a newbie won't have something valuable to say.[/quote']

 

Very true, it's just often disorienting for people that have been around a while

 

This is especially true when it's a tread started by a poster that no longer posts here or when replies are addressed to someone long gone.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I'm planning(at some point) to write up a sourcebook on "Epic" Champions, and include power levels and options beyond straight "build your character on X points". In terms of balancing "unbalanced" characters, I have a few basic ideas:

1. Have the player define what the character CANNOT do. This ensures they won't overshadow some other character types.

2. Have the player define situations where their powers either won't work, or work much less effectively. The character could tool around in a giant suit of power-armor, and therefore can't take it inside most buildings. Or the character's powers may be impaired off-planet or in another dimension. Or most powers may require gestures, incantations or a focus, and can be therefore restrained or interrupted.

3. Have the player define an attack or power the character is highly vulnerable to. Consider using the expanded vulnerability options in APG I(including "instant stun" and "instant KO" type vulnerabilities).

4. For every "quantum" of ability above "point-limited" PCs, require an additional 50 points in complications(up to 150 extra).

5. Other useful limitations include psychological complications such as a code of conduct or a reluctance to employ their full power; Physical Limitations or Dependences which require them to periodically recharge or otherwise suffer reductions in ability; Unluck; Hunters and Watchers with non-combat influence; social complications, distinctive features, rivalries and negative rep, which keep the character from simply basking in glory all the time; and a backstory which may narrow the focus of the character or may limit the scope of power usage in terms of "what's in character for them to do".

6. Give them an arch-nemesis(or three) who can give them a hard time, and yet who has weaknesses of their own, which can be exploited by the point-limited PCs in the group. Bonus points if one of the arch-nemeses can be useful for comedic or romantic subplots.

7. Let the point-limited PCs define something they are clearly the best at, or even exclusively good at. For example, the supermage might be the only real broad magic-user on the team; the supervigilante might be the best detective by far, and the worldly superscrapper might have a ton of exclusive and useful contacts.

8. Write adventures that do not absolutely require the character's brute power to win. If the character gets taken down for some reason, you don't want the group to be frustrated. At the same time, you don't want the character to show up the rest of the group by snapping their fingers and making the bad guys surrender.

9. Don't assume that because you have one or more ultra-powerful heroes on a team, that every adventure therefore has to be epic or cosmic in scope. If you follow rule 8, you can absolutely have Superdude helping fight street crime in Megapolis, alongside Ratgirl. The challenge is just of a different nature.

10. High Points and powerful abilities does not automatically equal knowing what to do with them, or even (in case of the former) having the latter. There are some comic-book characters whose point totals are probably in the low 4-digit range, but their attack damage is still within "standard superhero" range(i.e., maybe 10-16 DC). And there are powerhouses who may be lacking in the noncombat skill department, or not have much power diversity(the superbrick who doesn't fly, shoot energy beams out their eyes, create supergadgets, move at superspeeds, or read minds; they're just ludicrously strong and impossibly tough). A powerful character doesn't have to be an experienced character, and an experienced character doesn't have to be overtly powerful.

11. Make sure that each player knows the general limits and abilities of each other player's PC, including the ones that aren't limited to specific point totals. They don't need to know the point totals, though. But it's good if they understand that the mega-heroes have a number of different limits put upon them. Another possibility is to permit each player to write up one (or more) points-limited PC and one(or more) unpointed PC. The GM can then indicate which character is appropriate for a given run, or the player can choose and the GM adjusts his run accordingly.

12. Make sure, as a GM, that you "shift the spotlight" as necessary, so that such mega-heroes don't overshadow the point-limited heroes(and their players) during a session.

[DusterBoy]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I'm planning(at some point) to write up a sourcebook on "Epic" Champions, and include power levels and options beyond straight "build your character on X points". In terms of balancing "unbalanced" characters, I have a few basic ideas:

1. Have the player define what the character CANNOT do. This ensures they won't overshadow some other character types.

2. Have the player define situations where their powers either won't work, or work much less effectively. The character could tool around in a giant suit of power-armor, and therefore can't take it inside most buildings. Or the character's powers may be impaired off-planet or in another dimension. Or most powers may require gestures, incantations or a focus, and can be therefore restrained or interrupted.

3. Have the player define an attack or power the character is highly vulnerable to. Consider using the expanded vulnerability options in APG I(including "instant stun" and "instant KO" type vulnerabilities).

4. For every "quantum" of ability above "point-limited" PCs, require an additional 50 points in complications(up to 150 extra).

5. Other useful limitations include psychological complications such as a code of conduct or a reluctance to employ their full power; Physical Limitations or Dependences which require them to periodically recharge or otherwise suffer reductions in ability; Unluck; Hunters and Watchers with non-combat influence; social complications, distinctive features, rivalries and negative rep, which keep the character from simply basking in glory all the time; and a backstory which may narrow the focus of the character or may limit the scope of power usage in terms of "what's in character for them to do".

6. Give them an arch-nemesis(or three) who can give them a hard time, and yet who has weaknesses of their own, which can be exploited by the point-limited PCs in the group. Bonus points if one of the arch-nemeses can be useful for comedic or romantic subplots.

7. Let the point-limited PCs define something they are clearly the best at, or even exclusively good at. For example, the supermage might be the only real broad magic-user on the team; the supervigilante might be the best detective by far, and the worldly superscrapper might have a ton of exclusive and useful contacts.

8. Write adventures that do not absolutely require the character's brute power to win. If the character gets taken down for some reason, you don't want the group to be frustrated. At the same time, you don't want the character to show up the rest of the group by snapping their fingers and making the bad guys surrender.

9. Don't assume that because you have one or more ultra-powerful heroes on a team, that every adventure therefore has to be epic or cosmic in scope. If you follow rule 8, you can absolutely have Superdude helping fight street crime in Megapolis, alongside Ratgirl. The challenge is just of a different nature.

10. High Points and powerful abilities does not automatically equal knowing what to do with them, or even (in case of the former) having the latter. There are some comic-book characters whose point totals are probably in the low 4-digit range, but their attack damage is still within "standard superhero" range(i.e., maybe 10-16 DC). And there are powerhouses who may be lacking in the noncombat skill department, or not have much power diversity(the superbrick who doesn't fly, shoot energy beams out their eyes, create supergadgets, move at superspeeds, or read minds; they're just ludicrously strong and impossibly tough). A powerful character doesn't have to be an experienced character, and an experienced character doesn't have to be overtly powerful.

11. Make sure that each player knows the general limits and abilities of each other player's PC, including the ones that aren't limited to specific point totals. They don't need to know the point totals, though. But it's good if they understand that the mega-heroes have a number of different limits put upon them. Another possibility is to permit each player to write up one (or more) points-limited PC and one(or more) unpointed PC. The GM can then indicate which character is appropriate for a given run, or the player can choose and the GM adjusts his run accordingly.

12. Make sure, as a GM, that you "shift the spotlight" as necessary, so that such mega-heroes don't overshadow the point-limited heroes(and their players) during a session.

 

As to Rule 8 (and these are a good set of rules BTW), I'd make Superdude spend a lot of time investigating is his Secret ID of "Clark Kent", mild mannered but ace reporter to complement RG's investigative skills with his own. She knows who she knows, he knows who he knows and whole will be greater than the sum of its parts. Plus, Superdude can act as meatshield for Ratgirl when they go into action in the final scene.

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I guess some folks live online. I don't. Sorry if it upsets you, but why are you reading old threads if you object to them being resurrected? Ignore me if it offends you that I only recently signed up on here. I've been playing Champions in real life for almost 30 years so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Lucius]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

I guess some folks live online. I don't. Sorry if it upsets you' date=' but why are you reading old threads if you object to them being resurrected? Ignore me if it offends you that I only recently signed up on here. I've been playing Champions in real life for almost 30 years so put that in your pipe and smoke it.[/quote']

 

Just be cool and don't let them bug you.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

That's the palindromedary's advice too

[DusterBoy]

Re: Unbalanced Heroes

 

Welcome on board, It'salwayssunny.