Can't Feel Pain

[Susano]

This article described a genetic disorder that keeps the person from feeling pain, extreme cold, extreme heat.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/11/01/painless.child.ap/index.html

 

My question is -- if I tried to model this for a HERO System character (a cyberpunk character with a damaged nervous system), is this a Phys Lim, STUN Only Damage Reduction, or Takes No STUN. And if the latter, do I have to triple all defenses? What if Takes No STUN was on an Activation Roll?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

If I understand the condition correctly, I'd say it's a Phys Lim, plus Cannot Be Stunned. I believe they can still be reduced to unconsciousness due to physical trauma, they just don't feel the pain along the way. So it would be a Phys Lim (and I as the GM would track the character's STUN) because they would have no idea how much STUN they had taken, nor how much they had left. They could be on the brink of unconsciousness, and not realize it. But they probably couldn't be Stunned in the game sense. (At least, not by any reasonable attack... you might buy extra CON Only to Prevent Stunning, rather than buying the full Cannot Be Stunned automaton power. That way, a sufficiently large attack could shake even them up momentarily.)

[Simon]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

I'd argue that the 'Cannot be STUNNED' bit isn't really accurate. If I'm understanding the condition properly, they can still be stunned, rattled, KO'd, etc. Frex, hit them with a strong uppercut to the diaphragm and they'll have the wind knocked out of them. That's a purely physical response as the diaphragm muscle is knocked loopy, preventing you from drawing a breath. Will they writhe on the ground in pain from the blow? No, but they're still be stunned.

 

You'd probably be best off representing it as a very high level of Resistance. Effectively, they could be withstand as much torture as they wanted, the main limit (failed roll) being psychological in nature (they don't feel the pain, but they still know that they're being destoyed physically).

 

They Phys. Lim. is definitely a go, however. There are more drawbacks to the condition than there are bonuses.

[Rapier]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

I'd argue that the 'Cannot be STUNNED' bit isn't really accurate. If I'm understanding the condition properly, they can still be stunned, rattled, KO'd, etc. Frex, hit them with a strong uppercut to the diaphragm and they'll have the wind knocked out of them. That's a purely physical response as the diaphragm muscle is knocked loopy, preventing you from drawing a breath. Will they writhe on the ground in pain from the blow? No, but they're still be stunned.

 

You'd probably be best off representing it as a very high level of Resistance. Effectively, they could be withstand as much torture as they wanted, the main limit (failed roll) being psychological in nature (they don't feel the pain, but they still know that they're being destoyed physically).

 

They Phys. Lim. is definitely a go, however. There are more drawbacks to the condition than there are bonuses.

I can't really decide, but perhaps also some extra CON: Only to Avoid Being Stunned/Feeling Pain?

 

I've got a couple villains with a Pain NND and the defense is having no nervous system/pain stimuli. Interesting to see that there actually IS such a thing.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

Yeah, I guess Cannot Be Stunned is too much. They would probably not be Stunned by many effects that would Stun someone else, though, such as Ego Attacks whose SFX is causing pain, Martial Arts nerve strikes, etc. So perhaps extra CON with the Limitation is still in order. They're "harder to Stun."

 

Also, if you're using the Optional Effects of Damage rules, a character who couldn't feel pain would ignore the effects of Wounding entirely, so the Resistance is also a great idea.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

Just off the top of my head, I'd call it Cannot Be Stunned + a Physical Limitation.

[zornwil]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

I'd argue that the 'Cannot be STUNNED' bit isn't really accurate. If I'm understanding the condition properly, they can still be stunned, rattled, KO'd, etc. Frex, hit them with a strong uppercut to the diaphragm and they'll have the wind knocked out of them. That's a purely physical response as the diaphragm muscle is knocked loopy, preventing you from drawing a breath. Will they writhe on the ground in pain from the blow? No, but they're still be stunned.

 

You'd probably be best off representing it as a very high level of Resistance. Effectively, they could be withstand as much torture as they wanted, the main limit (failed roll) being psychological in nature (they don't feel the pain, but they still know that they're being destoyed physically).

 

They Phys. Lim. is definitely a go, however. There are more drawbacks to the condition than there are bonuses.

Good point Simon. I think the thing is to your point that (generally speaking) they can't be stunned unless they're receiving some sort of BOD damage or are taking an unusual sort of stunning damage. Further to ayour point, it's probably most simply modelled your way as there are so many variations, but I'd probably be tempted to either take a half-valued "cannot be stunned" for the sets of conditions where stun damage would be irrelevant.

 

Of course this was also Darkman's gig, albeit in a more superhero way in that he really coudln't be stunned even when in theory the wind should have been knocked out of him, so if this is a "larger than life" version of the purported character Mike brought up, I'd go straight to the "cannot be stunned" route.

 

And the phys disad would be there in any event.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

Ego attacks would be double stun. The problem is that the nerves don't transmit pain, not that you can not experience it, so if something that can cause you pain (like an ego attack, which goes straight to source) you'd really feel it.

 

I would build it with damage reduction: enough trauma would KO you but you are unlikely to ever take enough damage from physical or energy attacks to stun you.

 

Build it with Dam Red and Phys Lim: insensitive - you may, for instance be unaware thatyour hand is in a candle flame until you smell the burning. Another seperate phys lim: -4 to tasks requiring fine manipulation. Nerves don't work, no feedback. Maybe a psych lim: no real understanding of the pain/damage thing (based on an INT rather than an EGO roll), and Vulnerability 2x STUN from anyhting that causes pain without going through normal nerve channels (ego attacks, some poisons, electric shocks to the head...)

[Simon]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

Build it with Dam Red and Phys Lim: insensitive - you may, for instance be unaware thatyour hand is in a candle flame until you smell the burning. Another seperate phys lim: -4 to tasks requiring fine manipulation. Nerves don't work, no feedback. Maybe a psych lim: no real understanding of the pain/damage thing (based on an INT rather than an EGO roll), and Vulnerability 2x STUN from anyhting that causes pain without going through normal nerve channels (ego attacks, some poisons, electric shocks to the head...)

That's not really the case from this mutation, however.

 

The girl in the story cited can feel things just fine. She just doesn't feel pain or extreme heat/cold.

 

She can feel the texture on a nickel or dime, she can feel the pressure of her backpack, etc.

 

She could also place her hand in a pot of boiling water and never know that she's being injured, however. Hence the phys lim.

 

She shouldn't suffer any dexterity penalties -- just the physical inability to know when she is being hurt/injured without seeing it (e.g. cut her arm and she can see that she's been cut).

[Susano]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

Hmm... I think I'll have to post what I built and see what people think of that. The basic idea is that the character's nerves are shot due to shoddy job of implanting her wired-reflexes. So she doesn't feel much anymore as her sense of touch is somewhat warped -- so no sense of pleasure or pain (and before you ask, yes, this has rended her sex life non-existant). I was considering a Phys Lim: Poor sense of touch, as well as Damage Reduction that kicked in if she took more STUN (after defenses) than she had CON. Problem was, 75% DR, STUN Only, 12- Act, is still like 53 points.

 

I was debating making it Takes No STUN instead, since she can't feel a thing at that point. I also wanted to make this a fairly vanilla power, as it is intended for publication.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

Well, there are a lot of ways to do this, all equally valid, all with slightly different nuances.

 

But another way to look at it is that imaginary characters dont actually feel "pain" anyway. "Taking pain" is a conceptual thing in the minds of the players and GM. So really not taking pain is just a SFX driven justification for certain Powers.

 

I would say that in a high powered game, Damage Reduction vs STUN only and/or high CON would both be good ways to represent the SFX of "Takes no Pain", coupled w/ a PhysLim (All the Time, Minor). I would go the automaton route only as a last resort since it's no longer permitted to PCs in 5e.

 

In a lower powered game I would say that just the PhysLim and some extra non resistant PD and ED would do it.

[Vondy]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

I would use the cannot be stunned automaton rule. I would not, however, use the takes no stun rule. The person can have their neurological and reflexive functions disrupted without being seriously injured, and they can still be subdued with blows, or even those cool "this finger blow will turn off your left arm" martial arts techniques, they just won't feel pain when it happens. I think, to simulate the fact that they can take more punishment before they are subdued, however, that stun only damage reduction on some level would be in order. What about:

 

cannot be stunned

damage reduction, stun only, x%

[zornwil]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

By the way, disorders like this at a young age are not quite so rare. A friend of mine has a boy who is much like this. When he has an "owee" he only knows it as an intellectual concept, he doesn't cry (because he doesn't feel pain) and he simply parrots what he's told. Another side effect of this condition (I don't recall the name of it) is that the child is also abnormally strong, freakishly so. The worst problem is that the disorder also manifests with a lack of dexterity and therefore clumsiness, so these kids tend to hurt themselves even more than regular kids and therefore parents and teachers have to really keep their eye on them. This particular disorder is often outgrown after a few years. Based on the article and my friend indicating that it's rare but not nearly that rare (his doctors, for example, aren't overly concerned), I'm assuming this is a very different disorder though.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

By the way' date=' disorders like this at a young age are not quite so rare. A friend of mine has a boy who is much like this. When he has an "owee" he only knows it as an intellectual concept, he doesn't cry (because he doesn't feel pain) and he simply parrots what he's told. Another side effect of this condition (I don't recall the name of it) is that the child is also abnormally strong, freakishly so. The worst problem is that the disorder also manifests with a lack of dexterity and therefore clumsiness, so these kids tend to hurt themselves even more than regular kids and therefore parents and teachers have to really keep their eye on them. This particular disorder is often outgrown after a few years. Based on the article and my friend indicating that it's rare but not nearly that rare (his doctors, for example, aren't overly concerned), I'm assuming this is a very different disorder though.[/quote']

Well, what do you know... kids really are fearless and invulnerable...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

Getting back to the question...

 

I'd go with the Physical Limitation (duh) and Cannot Be Stunned with Only By Attacks That Cause Extreme Sensation Through The Character's Nervous System (-1/2). There's enough attacks out there for this to be a Limitation (most Ego Attacks, some Drain STUNs and even some EB NNDs), but not enough for it to be worth more than -1/2. If the character's sensitivity makes her so insensitive to pain/pleasure to the point where she doesn't even notice small but significent damage (such as standing with her hand in boiling water without noticing until she pulls it out and gapes at the blisters), she might have some STUN Only DR to keep her from passing out from STUN loss (which she shouldn't if she really isn't feeling anything). Alternately, or in addition, she might have extra REC and STUN to keep her from passing out from small amounts of regular STUN loss and to represent she wouldn't go into shock very often (if ever).

[Susano]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

Here's what I came up with:

 

53 Damaged Nerve Endings: Physical and Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%; Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Stun Only (-1/2), Side Effect (Hiroko doesn’t “feel†the damage taken if the Activation Roll succeeds, see text below; -1/4)

 

15 Physical Limitation: Increased Pleasure/Pain Threshold (All The Time, Slightly)

 

I'm not satisfied with the construction of the power or the wording of the Phys Lim.

[OddHat]

Re: Can't Feel Pain

 

I really don't think this should have any effect on stun in game terms; the damage is still being done, and the infected party (if I understand what I read on this) can still go into shock. I'd go with an earlier idea, and buy this as extra CON (does not add to figured characteristics) and Resistance. Add on a Phys Limit: Does Not Feel Pain (-15) to reflect the fact that the character has no idea what their Stun and Body totals are unless they visually inspect themselves regularly. YMMV, of course.