VPPs: Your experiences

[Outsider]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

I heartily agree that limited VPPs are a lot more interesting.

 

One of my NPCs had a 60 point pool, 0 Phase/no skill change, but only for Teleportation. He could do pretty much anything that was based on Teleport (big 'T', the power, not little 't' the concept)

 

In a brief campaign I had 'primal magic' be VPP based, 0 phase, required skill to change, but limited such that the only power advantage available was "explosion" and the only power disads were Side Effect and a Variable Lim totaling -4 in either extra time or extra endurance. Some powers were unavailable too (certain stop signs/mag glasses)

[Metaphysician]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

Yeah, VPPs are definitely not advised for inexperienced players.

 

Granted, Microman II, my first character, has one, but its a skill pool, so its not like complicated constructs need to be built with it.

[Lightray]

c) We're Not Gonna Wait, Dammit

 

Have your slots written up ahead of time and/or be able to write really damn fast between Phases, because the game will not wait while you flip through the design manual.

 

And it helps if you get as many slots pre-approved by the GM before the game as possible.

I go with this.

 

Default powers for the VPP are to be on the character sheet (with any defenses, etc. added in). If the players want, they can have a separate list of other powers to be reviewed beforehand.

 

If they can change it in play, and they want to, then they have to write down what they want to do. And the rest of us aren't waiting. That player's character just keeps losing Phases -- or Turns -- until I can review the written power.

 

The one time it came up, combat had been over for 5 minutes. Everybody learned their lesson.

 

I DO allow one character with a 5 pt Skill Pool to wing it. She can basically get one Skill at +1, one Skill Level, or something funky like one Autofire Skill, so it's not too delaying.

[Chuckg]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

I go with this.

 

Default powers for the VPP are to be on the character sheet (with any defenses, etc. added in). If the players want, they can have a separate list of other powers to be reviewed beforehand.

 

If they can change it in play, and they want to, then they have to write down what they want to do. And the rest of us aren't waiting. That player's character just keeps losing Phases -- or Turns -- until I can review the written power.

 

The one time it came up, combat had been over for 5 minutes. Everybody learned their lesson.

 

I DO allow one character with a 5 pt Skill Pool to wing it. She can basically get one Skill at +1, one Skill Level, or something funky like one Autofire Skill, so it's not too delaying.

 

To be fair, it's a little easier for me, since the 'New Sentinels' game I play in is run over AIM chat.

 

IOW, /everything/ has to be written. Well, typewritten.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

I also didn't *have* to faint... my VPP is 0 END, so mechanically-speaking I could have tossed that off without blinking. I just did that because, well, a) dramatically appropriate and having just hogged 99% of the kill count for myself in one shot, it would be really rude of me to hang around and clutter up the rest of the fight scene too.

 

Nice. My group is like that, all of us. All of us have GMed for more than 15 years, so we know about things like that and try and adjust our personal styles so everyone has a good time. This group has been together (in one form or another) for almost 13 years- I hear horror stories about bad groups and realize just how blessed I am.

 

My best pool moment (the one that made me decide to retire my last pool based PC). We were at the climactic fight with the big baddie, who as I recall had a 75 or 80 pt VPP with a few limitations. I was playing the godling I mentioned before, Surge, - basically a Martial Artist with some supernatural defences and the pool.

While the rest of the team were beating on Shyra (the bad guy), Surge kept using his oddball powers to stymie the baddie. The Gm was obviously enjoying it, but the the character was getting more and more frustrated. At one point the GM just described a bolt of funky coruscating purple energy that he throws at me. I aborted, and I still don't know why other than instinct, to shift the pool to a full 40 points of Power D (loose construtions in those days).

After the fight I use my pool to transform Shyra into a normal with no powers. The GM commented that was what was coming my way when I aborted. I intuited what was coming and chose just the right thing.

But during the adventure, Surge's versitility kept messing up the plot. I could see it happening, usually in a minor way, and could tell the GM was shifting gears to keep tension level high - so I suggested I retire the character.

[Publius]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

Microman II' date=' my first character, has one, but its a skill pool, so its not like complicated constructs need to be built with it.[/quote']I have always thought that this is the only way to really convey someone like Doc Savage or the downloaded skills of a Matrix-style game. Is it legal though? What I mean is that according to the standard rules can you have a Skill VPP? I recall looking it up in the FAQ at one point but I don't presently remember what conclusion I came to. It seems somehow to be potentially unbalanced however.

 

If I were asked about this as a GM on the spot, I would tell a PC that a Skill VPP would have to be far more narrow than just "skills" (i.e. a Science Skill VPP or a Language Skill VPP or something along those lines). But again, I am pretty tight-fisted when it comes to the VPPs.

[Chuckg]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

a) Microman II is an android, with a library database.

 

It's only for skills that could plausibly be on skillchips, a la cyberpunk. (He doesn't actually chips, though, it's more like the Matrix thing.)

 

c) I dunno how it is by default, but in our game, Jeff said it was legal, so it's legal. Special DM Permission and all that.

[Chuckg]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

But during the adventure' date=' Surge's versitility kept messing up the plot. I could see it happening, usually in a minor way, and could tell the GM was shifting gears to keep tension level high - so I suggested I retire the character.[/quote']

 

By this point in the narrative, I have already made at least three open offers to the entire gaming group that if they want me to retire Starguard at any time, they have but to call a group vote.

 

So far, every time I've said, I've gotten back a consensus on the order of 'You stop playing that character and we kill you."

 

Then again, I am cheating. I run her as so horribly, insufferably cute and yet not-annoying that you just can't bear to get rid of her...

 

Like you, LM, I am a reformed powergamer. But one thing I didn't lose in the redemption process was the knowledge that the more entertaining you are for the rest of the group, the more shit you can get away with.

[Lightray]

Is it legal though? What I mean is that according to the standard rules can you have a Skill VPP? I recall looking it up in the FAQ at one point but I don't presently remember what conclusion I came to. It seems somehow to be potentially unbalanced however.

I think I took the idea for Fermata (the 5 pt Skill Pool character) from the UNTIL Superpowers Database, so it's "legal" in the same way that the classic Rocket Punch is -- if your GM is crazy enough to allow it.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

So this got me to wondering' date=' in your experience, how are field-changeable VPPs most commonly used? Do they more often help games, or hurt them?[/quote']Hurt. Every time.

[OddHat]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

I have always thought that this is the only way to really convey someone like Doc Savage or the downloaded skills of a Matrix-style game. Is it legal though? What I mean is that according to the standard rules can you have a Skill VPP? I recall looking it up in the FAQ at one point but I don't presently remember what conclusion I came to. It seems somehow to be potentially unbalanced however.

 

If I were asked about this as a GM on the spot, I would tell a PC that a Skill VPP would have to be far more narrow than just "skills" (i.e. a Science Skill VPP or a Language Skill VPP or something along those lines). But again, I am pretty tight-fisted when it comes to the VPPs.

 

Well, the USPD and I think one or two other sources do offer them as options. Personally I treat it as a Stop Sign advantage on a Stop Sign power; it has to be looked at very carefully, and I have to really trust the player not to step on anyone's toes.

I kind of prefer to give Doc Savage types Scholar, a long list of KS and SS, skill levels with those KS and SS, and a few Open KS that (with permission) can be defined in play. I also allow cinematic skills like Science! and Knowledge!, which function in the same way for their fields as Universal Translator does for languages. It's more expesive than a skills VPP, but I think it better reflects the value of that kind of construct in my games.

[Publius]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

I dunno how it is by default' date=' but in our game, Jeff said it was legal, so it's legal. Special DM Permission and all that. [/quote']I agree completely and it sounds like your character concept if nothing else is well-suited. I was just wondeing if it is like non-END powers in a EC Pool.

 

Since Lightray mentioned it was in the USPD I'd guess it is legal anyway.

 

Edit: Oddhat, that seems to put it into perspective. What do you mean by a cinematic skill though? Like a talent or Superskill?

[OddHat]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

Edit: Oddhat, that seems to put it into perspective. What do you mean by a cinematic skill though? Like a talent or Superskill?

 

Kind of. In a "realistic" game world, scientists will be fairly specialized. They might have some skills outside of their field, but being an elecrical engineer does not imply that you can invent a hyperdrive. In a more cinematic world (say Silver Age), every Scientist seems to have a vast knowledge of every branch of Science. Remember the TV show Angel, where Fred the Physicist and Wesley the Linguist and Historian both seemed to have the ability to cross over into the other's fields? I'd say that both of them had the Cinematic Skills of Science! and Knowledge!, and probably a low level of Universal Translator with extra time.

 

Mechanically, all three are priced at 20 points for 9+Int/5 or less, +1 per point, and Science! and Knowledge! can not actually provide information at the same level of detail as the applicable SS or KS.

[Chuckg]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

I agree completely and it sounds like your character concept if nothing else is well-suited. I was just wondeing if it is like non-END powers in a EC Pool.

 

Actually,I think it's more like Special Powers in a Multipower -- possible, but only with GM permission.

[Gary]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

Kind of. In a "realistic" game world, scientists will be fairly specialized. They might have some skills outside of their field, but being an elecrical engineer does not imply that you can invent a hyperdrive. In a more cinematic world (say Silver Age), every Scientist seems to have a vast knowledge of every branch of Science. Remember the TV show Angel, where Fred the Physicist and Wesley the Linguist and Historian both seemed to have the ability to cross over into the other's fields? I'd say that both of them had the Cinematic Skills of Science! and Knowledge!, and probably a low level of Universal Translator with extra time.

 

Mechanically, all three are priced at 20 points for 9+Int/5 or less, +1 per point, and Science! and Knowledge! can not actually provide information at the same level of detail as the applicable SS or KS.

 

 

The game I'm playing allows the following:

 

1) If you have Universal Translator, it also acts as super linguist. You can spend 1 pt to have native fluency with any language with no roll necessary.

 

2) You can spend 15 pts for Worldly Scientist or Scholar or 10 pts for Worldly Jack of all Trades, or Traveller. It gives you a base 8- roll (which can't be increased for any reason) for any skill that you would reasonably know but isn't paid for. So someone with Worldy Scientist would give you an 8- roll for any science that he doesn't specifically have. This Uber skills enhancer also lowers the cost of any applicable skill by 1 pt in addition to the regular enhancer (1 pt minimum but you get the full skill roll for that point). So a scientist with Worldly Scientist along with regular Scientist would allow you to pay 1 pt for a 9 + Int/5 skill roll for any science skill.

 

3) For a 5 pt upgrade over (2), you can have the Universal versions of those enhancers. Universal allows you a 11- skill roll with any skill that isn't paid for but which you might reasonably know. So for a total cost of 23 pts (Universal Scientist plus regular Scientist), you can spend 1 pt for a full skill roll in any science and you have a 11- skill roll for any other science that you haven't paid points for. Similarly, you can have Universal Traveller plus regular Traveller for 18 pts and have a 11- skill for any reasonably large location that you haven't purchased (11- Manhattan is ok or maybe even 11- Chinatown, but getting a free 11- for Canal Street is just ridiculous).

[Metaphysician]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

Well, the USPD and I think one or two other sources do offer them as options. Personally I treat it as a Stop Sign advantage on a Stop Sign power; it has to be looked at very carefully, and I have to really trust the player not to step on anyone's toes.

I kind of prefer to give Doc Savage types Scholar, a long list of KS and SS, skill levels with those KS and SS, and a few Open KS that (with permission) can be defined in play. I also allow cinematic skills like Science! and Knowledge!, which function in the same way for their fields as Universal Translator does for languages. It's more expesive than a skills VPP, but I think it better reflects the value of that kind of construct in my games.

 

You know, thats not a bad idea.

[OddHat]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

You know' date=' thats not a bad idea.[/quote']

 

Thanks, glad you like it.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

All I did was change the BOLD on the quote.

 

Yes, a truly Cosmic VPP can do anything. But I'd be extremely reluctant to allow large cosmic power pools. For everything other than playing the Golden Glider, the Harbinger of the Planet Eater, I'd figure you needed a more limited special effect than "anything I want".

 

Does _that_ (comic book) character actually do half the stuff CVPP (RPG)characters are capable of? Really?

 

(No, I'm actually curious... all I've seen of him has him being a bog standard flying blaster... okay, a really powerful one, but kinda simple...)

 

 

As for me... For AtA I've required a 'limited power FX' limitation on all VPPs. This is so I don't feel bad about draconian enforcement (if needed). It's working out okay... for now.

[Chuckg]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

In his own comic, the Silver Surfer has busted out the majorly freaky shit from time to time, from healing, to molecular sculpture, to cyberkinesis, to etc.

 

And what Doom did when he'd temporarily stolen the power of the Surfer was just plain all over the map. Killing people and then resurrecting them. dropping glaciers on Honolulu, bringing back the dinosaurs by turning back time on remnant dinosaur DNA and then letting time's normal flow revert, he was having a ball just playing around.

[OddHat]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

Does _that_ (comic book) character actually do half the stuff CVPP (RPG)characters are capable of? Really?

 

(No, I'm actually curious... all I've seen of him has him being a bog standard flying blaster... okay, a really powerful one, but kinda simple...)

 

 

As for me... For AtA I've required a 'limited power FX' limitation on all VPPs. This is so I don't feel bad about draconian enforcement (if needed). It's working out okay... for now.

 

From time to time. For all the bad rap that VPPs get (and sometimes deserve) most comic book characters will come up with strange uses of their powers as they go from writer to writer. A few (Zatana, Doctor Strange, Doctor Fate, Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt, the Green Lanterns) seem to be able to pull whatever the story needs out of their bags, and others (the Silver Age Superman, the Silver Age Flash) can do almost anything within their SFX. A VPP is sometimes the best way to do that, and the Power Skill is also not a bad tool.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

A few (Zatana' date=' Doctor Strange, Doctor Fate, Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt, the Green Lanterns) seem to be able to pull whatever the story needs out of their bags[/quote']But do you really want PCs to have that power in an rpg? The potential for abuse is huge.

[Chuckg]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

But do you really want PCs to have that power in an rpg? The potential for abuse is huge.

 

IMO, anyone who can't make a judgement call in the middle of a game, and then stick with it, should not be sitting behind a DM's screen.

[OddHat]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

But do you really want PCs to have that power in an rpg? The potential for abuse is huge.

 

On a personal note, my regular players are adults, and I've been GMing for over twenty years. With that group I'm not worried about a VPP derailing a game.

 

In a pick up game, a convention game, or with players I didn't know, I'm more cautious about allowing VPPs, and about what type of VPP I'll let pass.

[OddHat]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

The game I'm playing allows the following:

 

1) If you have Universal Translator, it also acts as super linguist. You can spend 1 pt to have native fluency with any language with no roll necessary.

 

2) You can spend 15 pts for Worldly Scientist or Scholar or 10 pts for Worldly Jack of all Trades, or Traveller. It gives you a base 8- roll (which can't be increased for any reason) for any skill that you would reasonably know but isn't paid for. So someone with Worldy Scientist would give you an 8- roll for any science that he doesn't specifically have. This Uber skills enhancer also lowers the cost of any applicable skill by 1 pt in addition to the regular enhancer (1 pt minimum but you get the full skill roll for that point). So a scientist with Worldly Scientist along with regular Scientist would allow you to pay 1 pt for a 9 + Int/5 skill roll for any science skill.

 

3) For a 5 pt upgrade over (2), you can have the Universal versions of those enhancers. Universal allows you a 11- skill roll with any skill that isn't paid for but which you might reasonably know. So for a total cost of 23 pts (Universal Scientist plus regular Scientist), you can spend 1 pt for a full skill roll in any science and you have a 11- skill roll for any other science that you haven't paid points for. Similarly, you can have Universal Traveller plus regular Traveller for 18 pts and have a 11- skill for any reasonably large location that you haven't purchased (11- Manhattan is ok or maybe even 11- Chinatown, but getting a free 11- for Canal Street is just ridiculous).

 

Good options, very workable.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: VPPs: Your experiences

 

The game I'm playing allows the following:

 

1) If you have Universal Translator, it also acts as super linguist. You can spend 1 pt to have native fluency with any language with no roll necessary.

 

2) You can spend 15 pts for Worldly Scientist or Scholar or 10 pts for Worldly Jack of all Trades, or Traveller. It gives you a base 8- roll (which can't be increased for any reason) for any skill that you would reasonably know but isn't paid for. So someone with Worldy Scientist would give you an 8- roll for any science that he doesn't specifically have. This Uber skills enhancer also lowers the cost of any applicable skill by 1 pt in addition to the regular enhancer (1 pt minimum but you get the full skill roll for that point). So a scientist with Worldly Scientist along with regular Scientist would allow you to pay 1 pt for a 9 + Int/5 skill roll for any science skill.

 

3) For a 5 pt upgrade over (2), you can have the Universal versions of those enhancers. Universal allows you a 11- skill roll with any skill that isn't paid for but which you might reasonably know. So for a total cost of 23 pts (Universal Scientist plus regular Scientist), you can spend 1 pt for a full skill roll in any science and you have a 11- skill roll for any other science that you haven't paid points for. Similarly, you can have Universal Traveller plus regular Traveller for 18 pts and have a 11- skill for any reasonably large location that you haven't purchased (11- Manhattan is ok or maybe even 11- Chinatown, but getting a free 11- for Canal Street is just ridiculous).

 

Good stuff, Gary! I may have to borrow this. One of my PCs is all about this.

 

John