Red Knight Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Here is my problem. I created a Green Lantern-like character for the campaign that I am playing in now. I modeled him after the Green Lantern in the Kingdom Come series... Wears armor instead of spandex. I created him using a EC for the basic "always there powers" and I also threw in a VPP for those myriad of other thinkgs that he could make. It is those myriad things that have me stumped. I know how to make force fields and force walls and weapons and the such.... but what about bridges and chairs?? This all started while a friend and I were watching the JLU (Justice League Unlimited) Cartoon on Cartoon Network. In the pilot episode, GL was using his pwer ring to make a bridge to cross people across a canyon. My intial reaction was that this would be made as a Force Wall that was laid flat. My friend then asked, how much weight can it hold? So here I have an issue... My idea is that the Force Wall has a STR = to its intial dice. That STR respresents how much it can hold.. without collapsing. Does anybody else play a GL-like character and if so... how do you handle this??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... First of all, good choice on the Kingdom Come GL with the armor as inspiration. I'd never considered the FW on its side as a way to build a bridge before. Do FWs have dice, though? I'm pretty sure they have set PD, ED, etc. I'm blanking out on ideas for determing how much weight a FW could hold up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrFurious Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... I don't recall the particulars of FW but it occurs to me that you could use the weight of the people on the bridge as a strength to break down the FW. You put too many people, the bridge breaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aylwin13 Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... Just another thought. If you didn't want to worry about a weight limit, you could use Flight, UBO, AoE. Like this: Flight 6", UBO (+1/4), Ranged (+1/2), AOE (16" Line; +1 1/4) (36 Active Points); Restricted Path (-1), No changes in altitude (-1/2), Must point ring, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Only In Contact With Bridge Construct (-1/4) The 6" of Flight gives you the normal walking speed. The 16" Line gives you a length for the bridge of about 105 feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... I believe the FAQ (maybe a Rules Board question) suggested using Force Wall, and determining the carrying capacity based on the weight carried. For example, 32 people way 3,200 kg, which can be lifted by 35 STR. 35 STR does 7d6 damage, or 7 BOD on average. The force wall needs 7 PD to support 3,200 kg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyDrug Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... I thought entangle was the bridge making power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... I believe the FAQ (maybe a Rules Board question) suggested using Force Wall' date=' and determining the carrying capacity based on the weight carried. For example, 32 people way 3,200 kg, which can be lifted by 35 STR. 35 STR does 7d6 damage, or 7 BOD on average. The force wall needs 7 PD to support 3,200 kg.[/quote'] That's definitely the method I'd use: 5 STR worth of bridge weight limit for each point of PD in the Force Wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... I believe the FAQ (maybe a Rules Board question) suggested using Force Wall, and determining the carrying capacity based on the weight carried. For example, 32 people way 3,200 kg, which can be lifted by 35 STR. 35 STR does 7d6 damage, or 7 BOD on average. The force wall needs 7 PD to support 3,200 kg. Good work on working out the math. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Knight Posted December 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... OK... so a FW is what would be used.... I thought so... I liked the flight idea also.. Hadn't thought of that one. Although I think I'm going with the FW.. Now I have to figure out how to make chairs and such.... I think I'm going to talk to my GM and see if this can be an "effect" in that it is simple enough to be a gimme... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... Now I have to figure out how to make chairs and such.... I think I'm going to talk to my GM and see if this can be an "effect" in that it is simple enough to be a gimme... If you want to be a stickler, the chairs can also be a Force Wall able to support a given mass (2 DEF = 100 kg = 1 chair; double for each +1 DEF and watch out for the guy with Damage Aura; giving the Wall extra hexes should allow 2 DEF for each hex.). The chair shape is just SFX in my opinion. I'd be inclined to handwave it given its simplicity and lack of direct impact on the game, but it's nice to know the mechanic (you might want "chairs" supporting the characters over an active volcano at some point in time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... I thought entangle was the bridge making power Entangle makes bridges a little safer, because if extra weight is applied to the FW, it instantly goes away. The bad guy can throw something heavy on it and kill all the people crossing. With Entangle, when the weight limit is exceeded, the bridge *starts* to take BODY damage, and doesn't collapse until reduced to 0 BODY. This can also make for a great "cross the rickety bridge just as it's collapsing" action sequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... There is an optional Object Creation power detailed in an issue of Digital HERO --- #4 IIRC. Alternately, use Physical Manifestation applied to various powers, described on IIRC page 100 of the USPD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... The rules specifically indicate that neither FW or Entangles are intended to be used to make Bridges; the rulebook directs you to use Transform to create bridges. The optional Object Creation rules in Digital HERO trumph that and take ownership of the "Make a Bridge" concept. Personally, I allow barrier based entangles to be used to make a "bridge" if it makes sense. FW are a bit trickier however -- FW's specifically can't be used to exert force or push, which makes the idea of using them as a bridge complicated.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... I know how to make force fields and force walls and weapons and the such.... but what about bridges and chairs? My Green Lantern style character, Dr. Neutron, used Entangle with Variable Special Effects to create objects. I don't really see any other feasible way to do it. I suppose you could use Transform, but frankly I think using Transform as the "anything power" is really, really cheesy, and much-overused in the official Hero game books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... The rules specifically indicate that neither FW or Entangles are intended to be used to make Bridges; the rulebook directs you to use Transform to create bridges. The optional Object Creation rules in Digital HERO trumph that and take ownership of the "Make a Bridge" concept. Personally, I allow barrier based entangles to be used to make a "bridge" if it makes sense. FW are a bit trickier however -- FW's specifically can't be used to exert force or push, which makes the idea of using them as a bridge complicated.. Granted, however, the bridge per se does not exert any force. Bridges are designed to take force applied to them (on the deck) and redirect that force onto the support structure. In this case all you would need is a surface. BTW, this is the premise behind the uncooked spaghetti bridges you see in competitions all the time. The spaghetti doesn't exert any force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... The rules specifically indicate that neither FW or Entangles are intended to be used to make Bridges; the rulebook directs you to use Transform to create bridges. The book is flat out wrong. This isn't the Bible. It was not brought down from Mt. Sinai. If I can lean against a vertical FW, why can't I stand on a horizontal FW? I can make a horizontal Entangle Barrier over the big hole in the ground to prevent the Subterraneans from escaping. Now what happens if I stand on the barrier? If the rulebook disagrees with simple, obvious logic, who wins? FW are a bit trickier however -- FW's specifically can't be used to exert force or push, which makes the idea of using them as a bridge complicated. But Force Walls do exert force. That's why they're called "Force Walls." If a force is applied against it, an equal force has to be applied back, otherwise it breaks or moves. As you stand on the ground, you exert a force, equal to your weight, downward. The ground is strong enough to return the force with an equal one of its own, thus preventing you from sinking into the ground. If you stand on thin ice, the ice might not be able to exert enough force to prevent you from breaking through. It doesn't matter what direction the force is applied in - horizontal, vertical, diagonal. Equal opposed forces = No movement. Unequal opposed forces = Movement in the direction of the stronger force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheiro Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... snip Now I have to figure out how to make chairs and such.... I think I'm going to talk to my GM and see if this can be an "effect" in that it is simple enough to be a gimme... You might try change environment for this type of effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... If the rulebook disagrees with simple' date=' obvious logic, who wins?[/quote'] Why, the Rule Book, of course. Specifically, that oft recurring statement Steve Long uses. Common sense and dramatic sense trump any other rule in the book. Common sense says that, if a vertical force wall can stop a boulder hurtling through the air at 50 mph, it can also hold that same boulder up and keep it from falling if placed horizontally. Unquestionably, Entangle can also create a bridge, and so could Transform (create an object from thin air to make a bridge). But we satarted off dealing with a Green Lantern clone. When GL is KO'd, his ring constructs disappear. An entangle sticks around until it's broken. Transformed air would heal independent of the character who transformed it. So, for GL, the logical choice is Force Wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... Why, the Rule Book, of course. Specifically, that oft recurring statement Steve Long uses. Common sense and dramatic sense trump any other rule in the book. Common sense says that, if a vertical force wall can stop a boulder hurtling through the air at 50 mph, it can also hold that same boulder up and keep it from falling if placed horizontally. Unquestionably, Entangle can also create a bridge, and so could Transform (create an object from thin air to make a bridge). But we satarted off dealing with a Green Lantern clone. When GL is KO'd, his ring constructs disappear. An entangle sticks around until it's broken. Transformed air would heal independent of the character who transformed it. So, for GL, the logical choice is Force Wall. Agreed on the logic, but one wrinkle, depending on who is in charge sometimes GL constructs last after they are KO'd and sometimes they don't... Thus Entangle or FW could be "right" depending on the effect you are going for... For that matter an AE TK could be justified for the effect as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savinien Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... Right on, JmOz. We've always suggested TK for this sort of effect in the RCU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victim Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... Summon, slavishly loyal, various types of objects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... When GL is KO'd' date=' his ring constructs disappear. An entangle sticks around until it's broken.[/quote'] Yes, but it's trivially easy to approximate that with a Limitation, if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... Yes' date=' but it's trivially easy to approximate that with a Limitation, if needed.[/quote'] True, but why tack on a limitation to another power when a perfectly suitable one exists with no tinkering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... True' date=' but why tack on a limitation to another power when a perfectly suitable one exists with no tinkering.[/quote'] Because what is "perfectly suitable" depends on what one wants to accomplish with the power. For myself, I did not want Dr. Neutron's energy constructs to instantly evaporate if they got scratched, nor did I want him to have to expend END to keep them around once they were created. As such, Force Wall was not "perfectly suitable" for that character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Re: Green Lantern Object Creation... The book is flat out wrong. This isn't the Bible. It was not brought down from Mt. Sinai. If I can lean against a vertical FW, why can't I stand on a horizontal FW? I can make a horizontal Entangle Barrier over the big hole in the ground to prevent the Subterraneans from escaping. Now what happens if I stand on the barrier? If the rulebook disagrees with simple, obvious logic, who wins? Hey, pack all that angst into a closet somewhere. I didnt say it made sense, I just pointed out what the rule book indicates. I dont agree with it either, but that doesnt change the official approach. But Force Walls do exert force. That's why they're called "Force Walls." If a force is applied against it, an equal force has to be applied back, otherwise it breaks or moves. As you stand on the ground, you exert a force, equal to your weight, downward. The ground is strong enough to return the force with an equal one of its own, thus preventing you from sinking into the ground. If you stand on thin ice, the ice might not be able to exert enough force to prevent you from breaking through. It doesn't matter what direction the force is applied in - horizontal, vertical, diagonal. Equal opposed forces = No movement. Unequal opposed forces = Movement in the direction of the stronger force.By the book you cant legally push people around with a FW. You arent legally supposed to use it to make bridges. What you chose to allow in the interests of common sense is a completely seperate affair than what is rules legal. Why cant FW be used to push things around or make bridges legally? Unknown, though likely its a game balance vs logic thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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