Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

[Kristopher]

Another Question:

 

IIRC, a character can voluntarily operate as if he had a lower SPD.

 

Would you allows a character to voluntarily hide the superhuman portion of her PRE, so as to not draw attention to herself?

[OddHat]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

As long as they did not have Distinctive Features, I probably would. I might ask for an acting roll.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

By default you can always use less than the maximum effect of any ability.

[Blue]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

With PRE I don't see a problem. After all, PRE dictates things like your ability to act. The higher the PRE, the better you act. So illogically enough, the better an actor you are, the better you are at being nobody

 

I think COM might require clothing or other coverings, and maybe a disguise skill roll.

 

I don't think I'd let you lower CON. This is the body's innate ability to resist things. You can't turn that off anymore than you could your autonomic functions. Unless of course you're a yogi

 

You couldn't really lower EGO either, though you could chose not to resist an attack and you could definitely "Want to believe" an illusion (and thus move further down the chart for Illusions).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

With PRE I don't see a problem. After all, PRE dictates things like your ability to act. The higher the PRE, the better you act. So illogically enough, the better an actor you are, the better you are at being nobody

 

I think COM might require clothing or other coverings, and maybe a disguise skill roll.

 

I don't think I'd let you lower CON. This is the body's innate ability to resist things. You can't turn that off anymore than you could your autonomic functions. Unless of course you're a yogi

 

You couldn't really lower EGO either, though you could chose not to resist an attack and you could definitely "Want to believe" an illusion (and thus move further down the chart for Illusions).

 

Interesting point you raise here. What stats are autonomic? I'd agree with CON, but not with Ego. Ego seems to require an act of will, it is not unconscious (but that's just me.) I think DEX would be more autonomic... it is not easy to "act" clumsy, let alone "make yourself more clumsy." The first is possible. I can't imagine the second, really.

 

I agree that PRE could be lowered unless they had Distinctive Featuers. Likely COM to, with a little prep.

 

BODY? Intentionally lower this? By that rule, anyone can kill themselves just by willing it.

 

hmmmm... I don't know... USING stats at less their value is one thing... but lowering the raw value is another. I think there is a differentiation there. i.e. I can do a PRE Attack and choose not to use all my PRE... but this doesn't LOWER my raw PRE stat... nor would it change the basic environmental effects of the stat (like people noticing me more than others).

 

Aren't all stats effectively Persistent/Always On. Can't really "turn them off" just not utilize them to full extent... but some effects are not a choice... they just happen. Example: Character with high STR gets some through Growth Pers/Always On... he can choose not to use all his STR, but the stat doesn't go down, nor is he smaller and lighter.

 

I think some stats have "static effects" that just "are" and then there are the "utilized effects" when we exert those stats. The game doesn't define such, but the assumption is there in the background. Just the assumption that every character has something we would consider a body (not the stat). I mean, you can have a 100 STR character, and define them as looking thin and normal (not hulked up) but you could NOT define them as having no body at all, just being an ephemeral thing. characteristics/stats do define a static "being" of some kind that can not be turned off or changed at will. Exactly what those static charcteristics are... well, that is up in the air.

 

Intersting piece of Hero philsophy here. Cool.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

As long as we're talking Champions, the genre convention says YES.

 

Superman with a pair of glasses, a quick brush of the hair and a suit is described as 'mild-mannered'.

 

Pay no attention to the Mr. Olympia build, he's an ordinary reporter.

[Max Faraday]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

I agree with Neil. You can limit how much of a characteristic you apply to a specific action, but that doesn't actually lower the characteristic itself. In order for a High PRE character to draw less attention I would require an acting or disguise roll. As for Superman, he's got a hell of a disguise skill in order for a new hairstyle and a pair of glasses to fool anyone.

[Rapier]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

No. I don't allow a player to lower characteristics, at all.

 

You can choose to only exert certain amount of characteristic (only using 5 STR instead of the full 50...heck we do it all the time. That is what allows us to pick up an egg or hug a child without disasterous results).

 

I would allow a character to possibly 'mask' their PRE with shapeshift, acting, disguise etc. If its a skill allows -1 DC of PRE per point of success.

 

Voluntarily lowering stats is crap in my mind. It makes no sense at all and is meta-gaming munchkinism. Can you make yourself dumber for a while? Can you make yourself more sickly? Can you decide to have no will of your own? Can you decide to be less attractive? How about reduce your resistance to damage or lower your endurance? Choose to be able to take less pain before falling unconscious? What a load of crap!

 

And my big #1 asskicking offense...the "I'm going to lower my SPD so I don't drown." WHA? If this was the case, everyone could be a pearl diver. Since there are many more accountants, secretaries and tollbooth operators than pearl divers, I would have to say this is a load of crap.

 

Ok, I feel better now.

[pinecone]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

I agree with Neil. You can limit how much of a characteristic you apply to a specific action' date=' but that doesn't actually lower the characteristic itself. In order for a High PRE character to draw less attention I would require an acting or disguise roll. As for Superman, he's got a hell of a disguise skill in order for a new hairstyle and a pair of glasses to fool anyone.[/quote']

Grin..."I'm making a big *ssed Pres attack on jimmie olsen" "I'm TOTALLY mild mannered!!!" "Yipe...yes sir Mr. Kent sir..."

[KA.]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

As long as we're talking Champions, the genre convention says YES.

 

Superman with a pair of glasses, a quick brush of the hair and a suit is described as 'mild-mannered'.

 

Pay no attention to the Mr. Olympia build, he's an ordinary reporter.

 

I agree.

High DEX Superheroes often trip and fall in their Secret ID.

High PRE Superheroes often act scared in hostage situations to keep the bad guys from seeing them as "resisting".

People with high PRE in real life, like military commanders, can go to a play without having the whole audience stare at them the whole time.

They can be "low key" if they want.

As far as DEX, CON, etc. I think it would take some sort of deliberate test to expose them.

But you have to remember that they are good at the thing you are testing.

Chevy Chase and Dick Van Dyke no doubt have very high DEX, but that is what allows them to fall, trip, and hurt themselves, so realistically.

And someone with a high CON could act Stunned, in pain, etc.

I would give a basic 8 or less Acting Familiarity roll to pull this off once, but if they wanted to do it often, I would tell them to buy the Acting skill.

 

KA.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

No. I don't allow a player to lower characteristics, at all.

 

You can choose to only exert certain amount of characteristic (only using 5 STR instead of the full 50...heck we do it all the time. That is what allows us to pick up an egg or hug a child without disasterous results).

 

I would allow a character to possibly 'mask' their PRE with shapeshift, acting, disguise etc. If its a skill allows -1 DC of PRE per point of success.

 

Voluntarily lowering stats is crap in my mind. It makes no sense at all and is meta-gaming munchkinism. Can you make yourself dumber for a while? Can you make yourself more sickly? Can you decide to have no will of your own? Can you decide to be less attractive? How about reduce your resistance to damage or lower your endurance? Choose to be able to take less pain before falling unconscious? What a load of crap!

 

And my big #1 asskicking offense...the "I'm going to lower my SPD so I don't drown." WHA? If this was the case, everyone could be a pearl diver. Since there are many more accountants, secretaries and tollbooth operators than pearl divers, I would have to say this is a load of crap.

 

Ok, I feel better now.

 

I was trying to be low key, friendly and philosophical... but yeah... I totally agree. Lowering characteristics voluntarily is not appropriate.

[Kristopher]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

I'm reworking the self-exiled angel of war I posted some months ago, and the basic idea I'm trying for is that she can have a massive PRE, as appropriate for such a being, but she can walk down the street incognito without drawing attention for a block in every direction.

 

What I'm considering now is some extra PRE purchased with a limitation, such as "Only when Manifesting Visible Powers".

[Rapier]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

I'm reworking the self-exiled angel of war I posted some months ago, and the basic idea I'm trying for is that she can have a massive PRE, as appropriate for such a being, but she can walk down the street incognito without drawing attention for a block in every direction.

 

What I'm considering now is some extra PRE purchased with a limitation, such as "Only when Manifesting Visible Powers".

That's a fairly normal construct.

 

One thing you also need to keep in mind is the PRE attack modifiers.

 

A drill sergeant may only have a 15 PRE, but if he is YOUR drill sergeant he gets +2d6 (you are subject to his orders), if he is screaming in your face he get +3d6 (overt/confrontational action), if you are tired and didn't get much sleep he gets + 2d6. 10d6. That's enough to make you drop and give him 20, MAGGOT!

[OddHat]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

I'm reworking the self-exiled angel of war I posted some months ago, and the basic idea I'm trying for is that she can have a massive PRE, as appropriate for such a being, but she can walk down the street incognito without drawing attention for a block in every direction.

 

What I'm considering now is some extra PRE purchased with a limitation, such as "Only when Manifesting Visible Powers".

 

If the PRE is also defensive, it's OIHID.

 

If the PRE is defensive even when in your normal identity, and you have no distinctive features, then it would be unusual for the GM to rule that the characteristic by itself counted as a distictive feature. If you're paying the penalty, you should get the points.

 

On a related note, many years ago I worked for a female politician. I had no idea how she had gotten where she was. She mumbled, her attention drifted, she didn't seem very bright. Still, the pay was OK, and I needed the experience and the course credit. Then one evening at a fund raising function I watched her work the room. No one could take their eyes off her. She moved differently, spoke differently, and became vastly impressive. It was amazing. I've met a few more people like that since then.

 

As much as real world phenomena can be described in a game, some people do have a quality that can be represented as PRE that they can turn on or off at will.

[KA.]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

For those who don't allow the voluntary lowering of PRE, pardon my density, but I really don't get what this is based on.

I understand if you have Distinctive Feature : Ridiculously Impressive.

But other than that, what are you saying?

Does everyone with a high PRE, bought without OIHID or some other Limitation, walk around like Jon Lovitz' "Master Thespian" from SNL?

"Hello, Sirrah! What appears on your board of fare today?"

"Well, the special is a ham sandwich."

"Very Well, My Good Fellow! I shall have a HAM SANDWICH!"

 

Does everyone with a high STR constantly rip off door handles, crush glasses, and pull the arms off their dates if they help them to their seat in a theater?

 

I really don't get this.

 

I think there is a limitation for Always On or Full Power Only, but unless you buy your characteristics that way, why would you have no control over them?

 

I understand that it might be hard to hide a very high PD or ED, especially if it was Resistant. If someone shoots a bullet straight at your chest, and it visibly bounces right off, leaving a hole in your shirt, people are going to notice.

But that is not the same as always using your characteristics at max power.

 

I think this explains a lot of common things that happen.

Clark Kent will be slightly stunned (not Hero Stunned, but "taken aback") by an attack when he is unprepared. Then suddenly Superman can wade through them like nothing.

Why?

Because he does not have his CON and PD/ED turned up all the way most of the time.

 

Hero doesn't really get into this topic much, and I don't know if any RPG does, but if you actually had skin that was invulnerable to Napalm, you might very well not notice if you were touching a pan on the stove that was much too hot for a normal person to handle.

Which means that keeping a Secret ID would become almost impossible.

 

So, it is my theory (based on nothing at all ) that most Superheroes walk around in Secret ID with their powers/characteristics at some sort of baseline level that is below their Superheroic level. I am not talking about OIHID here. I think the powers/chars are available all the time, but that they don't have them turned on all the time when they are trying to fit in with normals.

This is the same reason why Matt Murdock doesn't scream and clap his hands to his ears every time Foggy drops a pencil.

And that someone who gives Clark Kent a friendly slap on the shoulder doesn't feel like he slapped a concrete wall.

 

KA.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

And my big #1 asskicking offense...the "I'm going to lower my SPD so I don't drown." WHA? If this was the case, everyone could be a pearl diver. Since there are many more accountants, secretaries and tollbooth operators than pearl divers, I would have to say this is a load of crap.

 

 

 

An average normal has 16 END. By lowering their SPD to 1 they will run out of END in a little over 3 minutes. Another 3+ minutes burns out their STUN, and another 2 brings them to 0 BODY, at which point most GMs rule that they begin taking additional BODY due to shock.

 

I guess it's a little long, but not too ridiculously long, especially given that the heroes that are supposed to be way better than normals fairly often have a 4 SPD without having doubled END, STUN, or (especially) BODY. A game is way broken, IMO, if the heroes drown before the people they're trying to save from drowning.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

An average normal has 16 END. By lowering their SPD to 1 they will run out of END in a little over 3 minutes. Another 3+ minutes burns out their STUN, and another 2 brings them to 0 BODY, at which point most GMs rule that they begin taking additional BODY due to shock.

 

I guess it's a little long, but not too ridiculously long, especially given that the heroes that are supposed to be way better than normals fairly often have a 4 SPD without having doubled END, STUN, or (especially) BODY. A game is way broken, IMO, if the heroes drown before the people they're trying to save from drowning.

 

That is a problem with the bad drowning rules and the worse speed chart... it doesn't justify the ability to change your basic characteristics at will.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

For those who don't allow the voluntary lowering of PRE, pardon my density, but I really don't get what this is based on.

I understand if you have Distinctive Feature : Ridiculously Impressive.

But other than that, what are you saying?

Does everyone with a high PRE, bought without OIHID or some other Limitation, walk around like Jon Lovitz' "Master Thespian" from SNL?

"Hello, Sirrah! What appears on your board of fare today?"

"Well, the special is a ham sandwich."

"Very Well, My Good Fellow! I shall have a HAM SANDWICH!"

 

Does everyone with a high STR constantly rip off door handles, crush glasses, and pull the arms off their dates if they help them to their seat in a theater?

 

I really don't get this.

 

I think there is a limitation for Always On or Full Power Only, but unless you buy your characteristics that way, why would you have no control over them?

 

I understand that it might be hard to hide a very high PD or ED, especially if it was Resistant. If someone shoots a bullet straight at your chest, and it visibly bounces right off, leaving a hole in your shirt, people are going to notice.

But that is not the same as always using your characteristics at max power.

 

I think this explains a lot of common things that happen.

Clark Kent will be slightly stunned (not Hero Stunned, but "taken aback") by an attack when he is unprepared. Then suddenly Superman can wade through them like nothing.

Why?

Because he does not have his CON and PD/ED turned up all the way most of the time.

 

Hero doesn't really get into this topic much, and I don't know if any RPG does, but if you actually had skin that was invulnerable to Napalm, you might very well not notice if you were touching a pan on the stove that was much too hot for a normal person to handle.

Which means that keeping a Secret ID would become almost impossible.

 

So, it is my theory (based on nothing at all ) that most Superheroes walk around in Secret ID with their powers/characteristics at some sort of baseline level that is below their Superheroic level. I am not talking about OIHID here. I think the powers/chars are available all the time, but that they don't have them turned on all the time when they are trying to fit in with normals.

This is the same reason why Matt Murdock doesn't scream and clap his hands to his ears every time Foggy drops a pencil.

And that someone who gives Clark Kent a friendly slap on the shoulder doesn't feel like he slapped a concrete wall.

 

KA.

 

Ok... the issue here is not that someone with a high stat MUST use it at full power all the time. No one is saying that. It is just that "not using a stat at full power" is quite different from "lowering that stat's value".

 

Say I have a 10 STR (rounding up ). I'm not using all of that as I type. (POUND POUND POUND... clatter, clatter... whoops!) I'm using as much STR as I need.

 

This makes sense for stats like STR, which are evident only in their use. Autonomic responses and stats like PD or PRE which represent STATIC characteristics are different. PRE itself is something I'd actually rate as a skill, more than a characteristic... and a situational one at that (take the politician and drill seargent examples.) While it is very hard for us to correlate a super-PRE to anything in the real world, I do think it is possible to negotiate this without the utterly ridiculous notion of "turning off" an aspect of my being.

 

A gorgeous super-model walks into a room... you will notice, even if she is dressed normally and with no fanfare. It is in the way she walks and carries herself... the hourglass figure and the thin build. She'd have to actively cover herself, conciously slouch, and otherwise try to hide herself to avoid it (Acting!).

 

Now... if she is in a movie theater, am I completely distracted? Depends on how close she sits, and if the movie is any good (situational) and it also depends on the fact that the reaction to COM and PRE fades over time. You get used to it. She doesn't "turn off her beauty" in any way, but the "static effect" of those stats just diminishes over constant exposure.

 

The point here is that if you have a high PRE or COM, you will be noticed unless you take active precautions. "Noticed" doesn't mean fawned and dogged downt the block... but people's eyes will be one you... if something weird happens, you have a better chance of being noticed rather than fading into a crowd etc.

 

Now... if you want to claim PRE is like STR. You only notice it when you USE it... that is cool, but I think folks want it both ways. Do it this way, you explain the female politician as high PRE... but you only notice when she exerts it. That would be consistent, but is not how most people interpret it.

 

Could be interesting to have COM be the static effect (how are people's eyes drawn to you automatically) and PRE be the "utilized effect" (how do people respond when you try to influence them.)

[Rapier]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

That is a problem with the bad drowning rules and the worse speed chart... it doesn't justify the ability to change your basic characteristics at will.

 

What he said!

 

 

And, no, I have no idea how to change the drowning rules so that they make more sense.

 

I love the SPD chart. SPD Chart is my friend. When I'm blue I can always call the SPD Chart and it will make me happy and go the the movies with me. But it doesn't scale normals vs supers very well in the environment.

 

Drowning is one of those cases. Any environmental effect that occurs on a Phase (as opposed to a segment) is broken. Now, is there something that can be changed to fix these kinds of effects (possibly, changing them to segment based)? Probably, but I'll be damned if I can think of what it is.

[Rapier]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

Could be interesting to have COM be the static effect (how are people's eyes drawn to you automatically) and PRE be the "utilized effect" (how do people respond when you try to influence them.)

It would have to be called something other than COM. Ugly people can have quite a bit of static notice ("egads, did you see that hideous creature?").

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

From Fred, bottom of page 285, on Holding Breath and Drowning.

He may lower his or her SPD to

2

(see page 232) to reduce the amount of END he uses.

...

All characters drown at a minimum SPD of

2

; so even a SPD 1 character must expend 2 END per Turn. (Low SPD individuals think more slowly, but they still have to breathe!)

 

On page 233.

Characters can not lower their SPDs lower than SPD

2

without GM permission.

 

So, by your calculations, it is run out of END in a little over 1 1/2 minutes. Another 1 1/2+ minutes burns out their STUN... Much closer to real life.

 

But for 1 point, you can have that LS: Extended Breathing, 1 END per Turn, if you're a pearl diver or Batman.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

From Fred, bottom of page 285, on Holding Breath and Drowning.

All characters drown at a minimum SPD of

2

; so even a SPD 1 character must expend 2 END per Turn. (Low SPD individuals think more slowly, but they still have to breathe!)

 

 

 

Crap. First the 1d6-1+1 and now this.

 

I think you used to drown at SPD 1 in older editions, but I may be wrong yet again.

[KA.]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

Crap. First the 1d6-1+1 and now this.

 

I think you used to drown at SPD 1 in older editions, but I may be wrong yet again.

Nope, at least not in the oldest edition I have, which came in the old boxed set.

The minimum SPD for holding your breath was 2.

 

KA.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

Hmm...well, it's been so long since I've actually played, at least FtF, and even longer since there was a breath-holding situation, that I may have just manufactured a false memory for this. While I'm subject to the same interpretative issues as other people (eg the STUNx thing), I'm not very likely to interpret 2 to mean 1.

[Rapier]

Re: Temporarily and Voluntarily Reducing Characteritics

 

Hmm...well' date=' it's been so long since I've actually played, at least FtF, and even longer since there was a breath-holding situation, that I may have just manufactured a false memory for this. While I'm subject to the same interpretative issues as other people (eg the STUNx thing), I'm not very likely to interpret 2 to mean 1. [/quote']

You seem so overly tramatised by the whole STUNx deal. Don't be. I can't tell you the number of people I know that didn't get it either. It's difficult to interpret the written word sometimes. Stop beating yourself up about it.

 

The real question now is, are you going to make the change or not?