Crazy idea for a magic "system".

[KA.]

While watching Harry Potter and The Sorceror's Stone, I had a weird idea for a system of magic for Fantasy Hero.

Not really a "system" so much as a set of guideliness.

 

One problem I have with magic in Hero is that it does not feel "special".

It just feels like Superpowers with a fairly fixed set of Limitations.

 

So, here is my idea:

 

Magic spells/abilities are unique to the caster/creator.

Meaning that, taking into account Power + SFX + Advantage, a spell would be unique to the original caster.

 

In other words:

Glen the Gifted develops his Acid Arrow Spell.

It is bought as an RKA/Acid/AP.

This is now the RKA/Acid/AP for the whole campaign.

Only Glen can cast it. Upon his death, someone else may figure out a spell of their own, but up to then, Glen is the guy!

 

Fritz the Fiery is more than welcome to come up with his Flame Bolt,

which is bought as RKA/Flame/AP, but he cannot do an acid one.

 

Other things needed would be:

1) A set list of SFX with the unique properties of each.

That is another thing I would do to make spells a bit more special.

SFX would have effects. The effects would be balancing, both across the board, and within each SFX (positive and negative effects would balance out).

So an Acid SFX Spell would do +1 DC vs. Metal and -1 DC vs. Wood.

A Fire SFX Spell would do +1 DC vs. Wood and -1 DC vs. Metal.

(those are just off the top of my head, I would be happy to see suggestions on this from anyone who thinks it worthwhile)

 

2) A set list of Advantages that could be applied to spells.

 

3) A cross reference for the GM to determine who had what, and what was still available.

 

I have just thought this up as I go, so there may be some underlying thing that would cause this to cause major problems, I just haven't thought of it yet.

 

I just like the idea of a spell being "your spell".

And with the variety of SFX and Advantages, I don't think it would come up very often that a character could not make a version of the spell he wanted, even if the exact combination was already taken.

 

Oh, what the heck does this have to do with Harry Potter?

I was watching the scene with the magic hat, that determines which student goes to which house.

 

And I started thinking about how cool that was.

 

Here is Dumbledore and Professor McGonagall and all the rest of the staff, but they have to wait on the hat.

Dubledore can't do what the hat does.

Even he leans forward to hear what it is going to say.

That is the feeling I want.

Just because someone is a powerful wizard, that doesn't mean they can just whip up a spell to do the same thing as you.

Your spells mean something.

There may be an occasion where the whole kingdom depends on your particular spell.

 

Iron Golems are running amuck. Only the Wizard with the RKA/Acid/AP can defeat them!

 

This idea just seems great to me!

 

Either that, or I have stayed up too late, and I am delirious.

 

KA.

[OddHat]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

After a while with your propossed system, a Wizard looking for an attack spell is going to end up with Gallumphers Endless Stream Of Extra Hot Curry Sauce ("What do you want? All the cool SFX were taken!").

 

You could always do it Xanth style; every caster has one and only one spell, but the most powerful have a multipower with variations on that spell, or Variable Advantages.

 

Personally, I try to keep magic feeling special by being as descriptive as possible, keeping it rare, or by sticking strictly to a historical set of beliefs about magic. However, n reason not to use whatever system you like.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

Along these lines, but a little less stringent about limiting a spell to one person, is the system used in Ars Magica. Many spells are (more or less) common knowledge to the spell-casting community, but each wizard has a sort of signature to their casting style that affects the magic in some way.

 

Some examples from AM 4th Ed:

 

From a healing spell: "Asaron of Flambeau believes his mission in life is to repopulate

the world so there will be more to kill, and thus spends seasons healing

animals and people throughout Europe. In his version of this spell,

a black patch in the shape of a tongue of fire is left where the wound

was. A symbolic flame is seen in almost all of Asaron’s spells, making

it his wizard’s sigil."

 

From the Mighty Torrent of Water spell: "Marbaid of Flambeau’s wizard’s sigil is connected to his obsession

with blood. In his version of the spell, which has a Corpus requisite,

the target is hit by a gush of blood, and the stains do not go away until

Sunrise/Sunset."

 

From a poison detection spell: "In Verdan of Ex Miscellanea’s version of the spell, poisonous liquids

turn a faint green. According to his sigil, all his spells involve the

color green."

 

So, using this system, while more than one person may be able to use an acid arrow, it's very unlikely that anyone familiar with the caster would mistake it for someone else's acid arrow spell....

[Trencher]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

Can someone else than Glen make an greater acid bolt? "My spells is a five dice hand killing attack, Glen's was like only three dice. It is completely different"

 

You could just build the mages a superheroes, superheroes rarely duplicate each other.

[Labrat]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

KA

How does this system not seem like 'superpowers' to you? The redundancy of power is truly taboo in Superheroic level games since everyone is striving for a gimmick by the definition of the genre.

 

I think that the truly *special* magic systems are the ones that succeed in letting the players in on the history of the magic. Ancient Lore goes pretty far by my standards to maintain and define a good magic system. A more personal magic system might incorporate 'words of power' or 'runes' to make these more personal if need be.

 

Also a lot of the cool stuff about magic is in the actual write up. Sure someone can cast a flame bolt, but what if Drakemyre's flame bolt has the faces of multiple fire elementals writhing around within it. These are things that can add flare without graying out options in what should be a nearly limitless genre for powers.

 

Just my opinion.

[sinanju]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

Here is Dumbledore and Professor McGonagall and all the rest of the staff, but they have to wait on the hat.

Dubledore can't do what the hat does.

Even he leans forward to hear what it is going to say.

That is the feeling I want.

Just because someone is a powerful wizard, that doesn't mean they can just whip up a spell to do the same thing as you.

Your spells mean something.

There may be an occasion where the whole kingdom depends on your particular spell.

 

I think you could get the same effect far more easily by simply requiring mages or wizards to buy their spells up front. Whether it's a multi-power or not, you decide at the beginning what spells you're capable of casting, and then you're done. They might become more powerful as you gain XP, but you can't add new spell effects just because they'd be useful or cool and you saw someone else do it.

 

If characters get a break on spell costs if they specialize in a particular special effect or school of magic, you'll probably find a lot fewer generalists and a lot more specialists, which also makes each wizard's spells more individualized.

 

Greyfell Firebinder is a fire mage; everything he does is fire-themed; Far-Seer is a wizard who specializes in perception spells, including clairvoyance and precognition. If you need something incinerated, Greyfell's the go-to guy. If you need some hints as to what nameless horror is lurking in the wings, Greyfell can't tell you, but Far-Seer probably can.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

Seems very limited to me.

 

As a possible variation introducing more options, you might instead state that every "Spell" must combine two or more Power Constructs and each combination must be unique in effect (but not necessarily mechanic).

 

Thus Mel the Acid Arrow Maven might have a construct combining a continuous RKA with a small flash vs the Smell and Taste Groups linked, but Sandy the Acid Glob Scholar has a Continuous Acid Attack with a Drain vs DEF linked.

[KA.]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

Thanks for all the opinions, positive and negative.

 

I will try to respond to some specific points.

 

OddHat,

I agree it is going to be limiting, but that is sort of the idea. I should also explain that I don't intend for magic to be extremely common, so I am thinking this will be more of a "color" thing than actually preventing players from getting the spells they want.

 

I thought about doing something Xanth-like, but I think that could be tougher to work in a campaign than in a book. It is easy enough to plot things so that your character can get by with only being able to turn water into ice cream, but to make a player try to function that way seems a bit unfair.

 

Captain Obvious,

Interesting idea, and I do like it. But, having individual SFX would still not really limit the selection of spells available. The weird thing is, I'm not actually trying to limit the selection available to the Player Characters, I am just trying to make it seem limited, if that makes sense.

 

Trencher,

If you are trying to make the exact same thing as Glen,

Power = RKA

SFX = Acid

Advantage = Armor Piercing

Then no, you could not make a higher dice version.

I do have an idea to provide a bit more granularity, see below for details.

 

Labrat,

I have never worried as much about powers being individual in the Super genre because the overall power set is rarely the same. The Powered Armor Guy and the Brick might both be able to fly, but their other powers and abilities differ enough that the overlap is not really a problem.

Now I am not saying that every spellcaster in Fantasy Hero is going to be a tall thin guy in a robe and pointed hat that looks quite a bit like Gandalf, because obviously the options are almost endless. They could be strong, weak, agile, slow, use weapons, use Martial Arts, or be total pacifists!

But, to me, when they all start flinging the same "magic missles", "fireballs", etc, things get a little generic. That is what I am trying to find a solution to.

 

sinanju,

I do like that idea. I could do something like having a list of SFX you can choose from, taught by different schools, and once you pick one, that is the type of spells you will learn.

 

Killer Shrike,

I understand. I am really not trying to limit my players options, so much as bring a sense of individuality to magic. But I can see that I may end up doing the first, in my pursuit of the second.

 

Soooooooo,

Here are a few additional ideas to add to what I proposed above.

1) I may add a fourth qualifier for Method.

The Method could be:

Wand/Staff

Potion

Incantation

Gesture

Rune

(if anyone has any good additions to this list let me know)

 

This would mean that the Power/SFX/Advantage/Method combination would have to be unique.

So if Glen used a Wand to cast an RKA/Acid/Armor Piercing attack spell,

Boris could still concoct a Potion that would allow him to do the same thing.

 

2) I may create a list of Minor Spells that any Spellcaster can master.

Which means that even a Mage that specialized in Fire Wands could cast a minor healing spell, light a room, etc.

 

Okay, with those addtions, now what do you think.

 

P.S. I know that I have the right to do whatever I want in my own campaign, but I really value the opinions that I get here.

Sometimes, when the "GM Hat" is on, it is hard to be as flexible as you would like, or the players will bend you into a pretzel.

Which is why I love having the chance to thrash things out here.

 

KA.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

After a while with your propossed system, a Wizard looking for an attack spell is going to end up with Gallumphers Endless Stream Of Extra Hot Curry Sauce ("What do you want? All the cool SFX were taken!").

 

You could always do it Xanth style; every caster has one and only one spell, but the most powerful have a multipower with variations on that spell, or Variable Advantages.

 

Personally, I try to keep magic feeling special by being as descriptive as possible, keeping it rare, or by sticking strictly to a historical set of beliefs about magic. However, n reason not to use whatever system you like.

 

Uhm... but Xanth always felt more like superheroes than fantasy. Everyone is born with a superhuman talent due to "something in the enviroment" where they were conceived?

 

Xanth is something Hero does well (okay, Bink excepted - but I suppose you could just give him standard luck powers and say that his existence is the cause of [some of] the ground rules of the Xanthverse....), without much GM effort.

 

I like the Stream of Extra Hot Curry Sauce though.

 

Here's my suggestion: Spells are like a weird form of currency. They can be exchanged, sold, etc... and in teaching it to someone... you forget it. If you die, the spells can be salvaged from your body(/your spellbook, or whatever).

 

This system could either allow innovation or not. Allowing innovation could get out of hand though (enviroment with a constant input and no output = BOOM!), so perhaps not.

 

You'd probably need to restrict (/eliminate) the possibility of immortality - otherwise, SOMEONE would have all the magic in the world tucked away inside them by now. (Perhaps simply cap how much magic any one person can hold?)

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

Soooooooo,

Here are a few additional ideas to add to what I proposed above.

1) I may add a fourth qualifier for Method.

The Method could be:

Wand/Staff

Potion

Incantation

Gesture

Rune

(if anyone has any good additions to this list let me know)

 

This would mean that the Power/SFX/Advantage/Method combination would have to be unique.

So if Glen used a Wand to cast an RKA/Acid/Armor Piercing attack spell,

Boris could still concoct a Potion that would allow him to do the same thing.

 

2) I may create a list of Minor Spells that any Spellcaster can master.

Which means that even a Mage that specialized in Fire Wands could cast a minor healing spell, light a room, etc.

 

Okay, with those addtions, now what do you think.

 

P.S. I know that I have the right to do whatever I want in my own campaign, but I really value the opinions that I get here.

Sometimes, when the "GM Hat" is on, it is hard to be as flexible as you would like, or the players will bend you into a pretzel.

Which is why I love having the chance to thrash things out here.

 

KA.

 

To tie this in to MY suggestion...

 

Minor Spells is good. Perhaps they might not be considered "True Magic" because they're easier and more commonly available. So they get less of a "wow" factor - ooh. Using True Magic adds an extra die of PRE attack 'cause not only is he a Wizard... he can do more than tricks. (ie, not just an apprentice...)

 

The Method thing actually gives me an idea on origin for the "first spells": A Small Group of incredibly powerful mages who taught all their lesser spells to various disciples, who each had their own "style" of magic. Of course, over time, they've been swapped around a fair bit.

 

Anyway... just a thought.

[OddHat]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

Uhm... but Xanth always felt more like superheroes than fantasy. Everyone is born with a superhuman talent due to "something in the enviroment" where they were conceived?

 

Yes. So will the system KA is proposing. See next post.

[OddHat]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

This might sound more critical than it is intended to; no offense is intended. Your stated goal is to have magic feel like “Magicâ€, to have it feel special and unique. If I were a player in your campaign, using the rules you are suggesting, Magic would feel mechanical, with pointless, arbitrary limits.

 

“I can’t learn to call a fire elemental because Moldavia the Wise already does that? That’s stupid.â€

“No, you can! You just have to learn how to do it in your own, unique way.â€

“Moldavia is standing right over there. She can teach me.â€

“Well, maybe. But Moldavia has to do it by jumping up and down and quacking like a duck. What if you can only call a fire elemental by wearing this beer hat, putting a spoon in your mouth, and singing God Save The Queen?â€

“Well enough then.â€

 

You will get a much more interesting magic system if you let the underlying mythology dictate the methodology, something the Harry Potter books (from what I’ve seen) are really bad at. Sit down with a couple of Wiccan web sites and a copy of a book or two by someone who really believes in magic. Work out how magic actually functions in your game world. What spirits are being called on? What natural forces? How? Is a sacred space needed? Do the spirits demand payment? What kind of sacrifice? When may rituals and workings be performed? How often may they be performed without angering the spirits you’re calling upon, and how can an angry spirit be appeased? How reliable is this process? Can Alchemy accomplish this task at al, or is it something that will require the use of Chi? Can this ritual even be performed at all at this time and in this place? Are you pure enough to perform this ritual? What sacred knowledge will you need that you do not already possess?

 

After you have a strong underlying mythology, make up a cheat sheet or two for yourself and your players, building up the details. Personally, I usually use a combination of sections taken or adapted from the books GURPS Voodoo, Authentic Thaumaturgy, Urban Shaman, Everyday Magic, and a few of my favorite fantasy novels, adjusted for taste. Now, finally, you’re ready for the mechanics.

 

If the underlying mythology is interesting and well presented, magic will feel like Magic. If you’re just throwing together mechanical limits, it will feel like arbitrarily limited super powers.

[Markdoc]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

Here's an opposing suggestion. What if everyone/thing has an inborn magical talent that is unique (sorta like Xanth) and that "spells" are simply how you learn to manifest of this talent?

 

That would give you the effect you want, in that that everyone would have a unique signature style of magic. It gives you an underlying rationale: certainly magic does not have to be based on any real-world style/idea as long as the ideas behind it are coherent.

 

At that point, you need to decide how "learning" spells works. Is it natural process, that each person works out (in that case, Hogwarts is right out, there'll be no grimoires, etc) or is it a talent that can be nurtured and trained (in which case you can logically have apprentices, magic books, etc).

 

You also need to decide how limited each talent is. For example "Fire magic" is pretty damn broad. "Ability to heat metal" is pretty limited. Ability to make things burn/vapourise is in the middle. You'll have to decide whether you want people to be able to choose their magical field (probably the best idea) or whether you want to limt their choices (players might not like that but it's more flavourful). You could do the latter by (just an example, right off the top of my head) making a huge list of magical areas (fire, water, air, darkness, light, animals, weather, etc etc) and then getting people to roll two off the list. Fire and animal powers for example. That lets you .... ummmm... summon giant firey animals. You could either do it as different summonings or as powers, or as a combination of the two - you got RKA right there (with a few fairly specific limitations and advantages that makes your magic unique). You could in theory, learn a spell that lets your giant firey animals talk (although as messengers, they're never going to be subtle). You might learn to ride them - giving you extra running or flight, etc etc.

 

OK, maybe that wasn't the greatest example, but like I said: off the top of my head.

 

Last of all, you want to think about mechanics. For what you describe, a multipower or VPP might be the way to go, the latter requiring a skill roll to generate powers and only known spells as limitations. That should not be unbalancing, since most spellcastes as you describe it will be limited to a fairly defined area of magic: no swiss-army mages with lots of inbuilt functions.

 

cheers, Mark

[OddHat]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

Something I want to stress: I was not suggesting that your in-game magic system had to be based on real world beliefs. I was suggesting that the underlying logic you apply to your magic system will make much more of a difference to your campaign feel than mechanics, and that the mechanics should follow from that logic.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

You might consider something like a variation of my Metier style:

 

 

But instead of each style being essentially a school of magic, each style is specific to a magic worker.

 

 

 

I dont know that I would go the "UNIQUE" route at any rate regardless of the path I took as it sharply limits the number of casters, and besides is illogical -- if only one person can know a particular ability, how does one ever learn a spell from someone else?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

I can see a couple of ways that a "unique to caster" magic system could work, without going the superpower route. One way would be to use a talent based magic system, with different talents represeting different aspects of magic power, with a caveat that no "gifted" person can have the exact same set of talents. Another way would be a form of granted magic similar to the beliefs in old european ceremonial magic, or some forms of shamanism. I'm thinking about Elric and his ring here. Specific spell effects are granted by specific spirits, and only one mage may be allied or linked to a particular spirit at a time. Thus, while two characters may have similar fire spells, there will be at least cosmetic differences, and probably gameplay ones. This leads as well to roleplaying possibilities...seeking new sprit allies., binding them, seeking true names, etc... as well as ideas like a Master giving control of a lesser spirit to his appretice as a graduation present. The idea of lesser and greater magic, with greater being unique... that can work as well. A friend of mine wrote a novel where there were a limited number of "Great Spells" which kinda bounced around the world when they didn't have a host. They were essentially high level Words of Power, which were the echos of the Voice of Creation. from time to time, one would find a mind that was compatible with it, and they would join for the life of the caster. Thus, while there may have been various famous Necromancers down through history, at any given time there was a maximum of ONE person who could speak the Word of the Dead. Any other magic is relegated to the studies of wizards, who try and decipher some of the lesser Words, which are part of creation and thus available to all. A mage with many years of research may have a broad scope of available powers, but anyone weilding a True Word would be able to overwhem them in sheer power. Just a few ideas.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

I think I have an even weirder idea for a magic system:

the Magic Hair System.....

 

All Spells must have the restrainable limitation (someone can remove/pluck the hairs) otherwise build spells to suit. Probaby need a Difficult to Recover limitation on the spell in addition. Since it probably takes weeks to regrow the Magic Hair and that is before you can use the spell at its full power.

 

this would need a good compromise between Restrainable and Independant.

 

but otherwise weird hunh?

[Mr. Negative]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

A similar idea to the "spirits" one proposed above, which is slightly less limiting, might be a "True Name" idea.

 

Each spell is an individual bit of magic. Not really sentient, but still an animate archetype. Discovering the true name of a spell allows you to evoke that spell. You can't impart the knowledge of a True Name without losing it yourself, so you either give up a spell, or the "learner" has to discover that true name himself. Here, more than one person CAN know the true name of a spell, but each one is an individual accomplishment.

 

The other idea might be kind of similar to the flavor (if not the "rules") of the old Doctor Strange spellcasting, where he invoked the attributes of a particular being or plane (By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth). Assume that each "element/plane/deity" is responsible for a particular SFX and effect (perhaps the Crimson Shadows free men from bonds, etc.). The wizard must do something to master that particular "element".

 

Thus, if someone produces the Crimson Shadows, then he has undergone the related ordeal (red-hot manacles, extended tickling, whatever) and he has demonstrated his mastery of that "element".

 

Another way to make magic seem more "personal", without it being unique to a particular caster, is to assume that magic is intensely difficult to invent. Don't allow people to start with a wide variety of spells, and allow them to learn spells only occasionally. Don't allow them to share spells easily between each other, or learn others' spells easily. If spellcasters all manifest just a few spells each, then the spells they know will SEEM distinctive to them, even if they aren't. It's the same way that your car seems distinctive to your friends. You don't show up every day in a different car, and seldom does someone else show up in your car, so even though there are probably 5000 cars just like yours, your car seems like "your car".

[Cantriped]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

Hmm, I've found a lot of really really good ideas in this forum, the Spirit idea was one of my favorites.

 

Atm I'm setting up a VPP based system in which all spellcasting is split up into one of 6 different schools dependant on its general effects Heres the favorite spell I've made so far

As it Was (Spell; Abjuration)

Effect: Healing(Body) 1d6

Target/Area Effected: Single damaged inanimate object or very small group of objects (Such as a wall, chair, or Ice cream float)

Casting Time: Half Phase

Casting Procedures: Gestures (Both Hands; Throughout), Incantations “As it Wasâ€

Duration: Constant

END Cost: 3

Prerequisite:

Invented by human mages during the rebellion that destroyed the Soratami Empire, this extraordinarily useful abjuration spell served a vital role in the rebel’s efforts. “As it Was†will restore to its original state any object broken or destroyed within the last 7 days. This spell still sees a fair amount of use in cities, where it is used to repair damages from fires or building collapses. Unfortunately, such repairs still take time, and are exhausting for the mage, not to mention expensive for the client. It is also quite useful for when an experiment goes wrong in the alchemy lab. I personally find the spell useful when my clumsy apprentice breaks my ice cream float.

Game Information: Healing (Body) 1d6, Continuous (+1), Cumulative (up to 8x maximum effect)(+1 1/4) (32.5 (32) Active points); Gestures (Both Hands; Throughout)(-3/4), Incantations (“As it Wasâ€)(-1/4), Limited Power (“Only Works On Inanimate Objects), Limited Power (“Only Works on Damage dealt within last weekâ€)(-1). Total Cost: 10.6 (11) Points

 

In the system I'm working on magic is an innate talant, but the Spells themselves are formulaic, thus anybody with the talant can learn spells given enough time and practice. the way I've set up the ruleset for magic ensures that though magic may be more versatile in some aspects a Warrior or Rogue is no less effective a character type because there are things they can do that magic simply can't. Powerful mages are also fairly rare.

 

In general though it seems to me that what makes magic, well, magic. Instead of just limited Superpowers is that any mage could potentially have the same kinds of abilities you have, most Supoer heros are built to be as unique as possible, while a pragmatic mage wouldn't care if everybody and thier mother knew Magic Missile, if its that useful you can be sure they will learn it as well.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

One problem I have with magic in Hero is that it does not feel "special".

It just feels like Superpowers with a fairly fixed set of Limitations.

That’s unfortunate that you feel this way. I think the magic systems put forth allow for a great deal of variation and flavor. But opinions vary, of course, and it’s certainly not “wrong†to feel this way.

Magic spells/abilities are unique to the caster/creator.

Meaning that, taking into account Power + SFX + Advantage, a spell would be unique to the original caster.

 

In other words:

Glen the Gifted develops his Acid Arrow Spell.

It is bought as an RKA/Acid/AP.

This is now the RKA/Acid/AP for the whole campaign.

Only Glen can cast it. Upon his death, someone else may figure out a spell of their own, but up to then, Glen is the guy!

 

Fritz the Fiery is more than welcome to come up with his Flame Bolt,

which is bought as RKA/Flame/AP, but he cannot do an acid one.

This feels too limiting to me. As someone pointed out, unless magic use is extremely rare you’ll quickly run out of special effects. What’s the logic behind this? Why would Glen be able to develop an acid arrow spell but not Fritz? Granted, they might not be the exact same spell, but it seems that two accomplished wizards should be able to come up with similar effects given the time and resources. And Glen should be able to teach his spell to someone should he so desire.

 

I’d be interested to hear the theories and reasoning behind the development of magic from an in-game perspective. It might go a long way to shed light on the subject.

Other things needed would be:

1) A set list of SFX with the unique properties of each.

That is another thing I would do to make spells a bit more special.

SFX would have effects. The effects would be balancing, both across the board, and within each SFX (positive and negative effects would balance out).

So an Acid SFX Spell would do +1 DC vs. Metal and -1 DC vs. Wood.

A Fire SFX Spell would do +1 DC vs. Wood and -1 DC vs. Metal.

(those are just off the top of my head, I would be happy to see suggestions on this from anyone who thinks it worthwhile)

Well, you could come up with plenty of balancing effects. You listed two good ones. Without knowing exactly what you have in mind for the magic system, though, it’d be difficult to give a blanket list of effects.

t list of Advantages that could be applied to spells.

Reasonable.

3) A cross reference for the GM to determine who had what, and what was still available.

You must be a glutton for bookkeeping This is another reason (and a good one) why I think the absolute rule regarding unique spells is a bad idea. You’d have to keep track of PCs and NPCs both, everywhere in the gaming world.

I have just thought this up as I go, so there may be some underlying thing that would cause this to cause major problems, I just haven't thought of it yet.

I think we’re all doing that for you

I just like the idea of a spell being "your spell".

And with the variety of SFX and Advantages, I don't think it would come up very often that a character could not make a version of the spell he wanted, even if the exact combination was already taken.

Here is where you disagree with your basic premise. Now you mention “versionsâ€. You’re saying that Glen might develop an acid arrow, and Fitz might be able to develop an acid arrow, but they differ in the details? That’s much more reasonable and takes the burden of bookkeeping off you.

Oh, what the heck does this have to do with Harry Potter?

I was watching the scene with the magic hat, that determines which student goes to which house.

 

And I started thinking about how cool that was.

 

Here is Dumbledore and Professor McGonagall and all the rest of the staff, but they have to wait on the hat.

Dubledore can't do what the hat does.

Even he leans forward to hear what it is going to say.

That is the feeling I want.

Just because someone is a powerful wizard, that doesn't mean they can just whip up a spell to do the same thing as you.

Faulty logic, in my opinion, and you’re forgetting something very important.

 

The hat is a magic item. It was created to do what it does, even if it has a personality, and it’s very good at it. Dumbledore doesn’t do that spell probably because it’s so time consuming and personally taxing. I can make something that writes on paper, but why would I when I can just grab a pen or pencil? It’s possible to solve extensive mathematic equations by hand, but why would you when you can use a calculator?

 

I suspect Dumbledore could indeed mimic the hat’s ability, but there’s neither a need nor a desire. Plus, the hat appears to be sentient, so he might have a personal/emotional reason for not wanting to step on the hat’s proverbial toes.

This idea just seems great to me!

 

Either that, or I have stayed up too late, and I am delirious.

I’m thinkin’ both

 

It’s not a bad idea to think of spells as unique. I’ve often thought that only the basics of magic could be taught a person, and that each mage would put his/her personal touch on every spell they use, but you could accomplish this different ways.

 

1) Have each magician write up his own spells. They’ll be unique by default, even if only in name.

2) Make each wizard do something ‘special’ with their spells. Add an images effect to mimic the glowing sigil brought about by the spell’s usage. Perhaps you the GM enforce the use of incantations to the point where the PC must say the spell in real life for it to be cast. You can also play with this and deduct from the magic skill roll if the player stutters, stammers, or messes up. Also, make sure they use the same incantation for the same spell each time they use it.

3) For you the GM, I’d recommend ceasing to look at the mechanics so closely and start looking at the spirit of the magic. Try and separate yourself from the game mechanics so that you can view each spell as an aesthetic and genre-enforcing device to better realize it’s in-game potential. Try and look at it from the player’s point of view: Glen loves his acid arrow, so much so that he wants to teach it to Fitz. Let him, but make some minor changes to reflect Fitz’s character. Perhaps the acid is reddish instead of greenish. Perhaps it doesn’t burn as much (less damage) but burns longer. Perhaps it doesn’t go as far (reduced range) but covers a greater area (AoE or Explosion). Perhaps he simply sucks at it (penalties on casting or side effects).

 

The uniqueness and specialness (is that a word?) of any given spell, caster or system is dependent upon the players involved. There are ample ways you can play with this idea without enforcing the “one spell, one spell only†rule.

 

Lastly, Markdoc's suggestion to emulate the Xanth "system" might be a good one. No two people have exactly the same spells/abilities, but they might have overlapping effects.

 

Good luck whatever you decide.

[Stormspace]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

To me part of the reason spell abilities in Hero seem too mechanical or lack flavor is that the system itself lends itself to this. Hero is the best of breed, but it is also a great deal of work.

 

Several things which I have tried to make spell creation this less machanical.

 

1) Develop a set of limitations that must be taken by all spell casters that follow a certain ethos. (Staff mages, Feather mages, Book mages, etc..) These limitaions can be as complex as you want them, such that if you want all spells to require elaborate ceremonies that can only be performed once per month, you can do that.

 

2) For each ethos design a list of spells that are readily available with a fixed cost so the player is just picking one out instead of jumping through hoops to design a uinique spell.

 

3) Require mages to take a spell research skill.

 

4) Also in item one where the spell casting requires a focus(ie Material Component) you can make them rare by requiring an additional skill to be able to create one. So now when that mage starts getting a little out of hand..poof goes his staff and he either has to recover it or make a new one.

 

5) Unique spells will still be available but make the spell research involve his ethos in some way. A Staff mage whose primary source of information comes from guild structure might have to consult the guild library, a nature based mage might have to study items in a particular place, etc.

 

6) The important part to making it all seem like a coohesive magic system is for everyone the PC's meet use an ethos they are familar with or has been detailed somehow. Staff Mages are the Enemy of the Tome mages so our tome mage PC may have run in's with his Staff bearing rivals.

 

7) Make certain that all of the different ethos tie to your world as well. Perhaps Staff Mages come from a single geographic area, or are considered to be wild mages since they don't rely on the written word as the Book mages do.

 

Later!

[Cantriped]

Re: Crazy idea for a magic "system".

 

Hmm, I think much of the problem with hero is Indeed its versatility, not only can you do jsut about anything, but you can do jsut about anything in a lot of different ways, back on topic though

I really can agree with what your saying though Stormspace

 

For my magic system I used 2 different Domains with 3 schools each, and each school stands for a particular group of thematically tied effects. Such as protective and supressive magics (Abjuration), or spells that decieve or trick (Sorcery). So though all mages Buy the same VPP and the same Spell Research Skill to learn spells any two mages might be vastly different simply because on focused on different schools of magic then the other