How to make an alchemy power.

[Cerebro]

Im making a class in my game that uses alchemy to make potions. nothing to fancy, healing,strength,speed, fly. Im not sure what mechanic to use.

 

Help me.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

Heres a start:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/artificerPackages.shtml

[AlHazred]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

Gah! It ate my long, well-considered post!

 

Okay, short form:

1. You can use the "classic" method - spend permanent Character Points on each potion. This makes them rare and valuable, and means few people will want to learn Alchemy as a magical college. This method is probably the most appropriate method for Sword & Sorcery games.
   
2. The "preferred" method from the Fantasy Hero Grimoire is to use Delayed Effect. This introduces a wrinkle - you have some multiple of your INT/5 as "free slots" to have precast Delayed spells in. If you are at your limit and you need to precast another, you need to drop one of the ones you've already got. This means potions will be somewhat unreliable, and alchemists could be seen as charlatans. It also means it becomes more viable to have a "party alchemist."
   
3. My favorite method is to use Trigger, with the Triggering condition being "drinking the potion." Precast Triggered spells don't take up any "free slots," so you don't have to worry about that. I like it because I frequently use VPPs for my spellcasters, and this way I don't have to worry about the complications Delayed Effect powers have with VPPs.
   

[Curufea]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

I like the Character Point idea as well. I also remember in earlier versions of the rules there was mention of donating points by superheroes to create a base . The same could also be used for the creation of potions by a party, or a group of alchemists. It represents the hunting down of the various ingredients and the time taken to do the preparations and rituals.

 

Using CPs though does mean the Alchemist will never advance as quickly as other characters - so possibly an Alchemist could be awarded time-based CPs in addition to experience points as normal (say one point per week), that can only be used for the creation of potions (and those potions must be independant).

[pinecone]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

Back in the day I did a litttle of both...triggers for regular, for sale potions and donated+own points for specials like big honking swords. The special effects are along the lines of "the alchemist needs 4 gallons of your blood to make a blood sword....he recomends small donations over several months time".....though indipendant is a big cost reducer and there are plenty of other "front end" lims you can throw in to make 64 doses of potion #9, so making 'em pay is viable , though the cost of a potion someone pays points for is going to be much higher than a cast and toss version....

[AlHazred]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

Using CPs though does mean the Alchemist will never advance as quickly as other characters.

There is a way around this, as I went into in my first, longer post, which was eaten ("Urp!") by the Internet. Items Of Power exist which make it easier to make an item. Perhaps it's the powerful Emeralds of the Eisenthorn mountains, which grant 1 CP toward making any item that involves magic of sight and vision. Maybe the players need to journey to Deserts of Time, to get a handful of sand that empowers any time-related item with an extra 2 CPs. That sort of thing.

[Curufea]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

There's no reason why you can't have expendable foci also giving CPs towards magic item creation.

You could do a list, like you sometimes find in CRPG games-

Herb

Wolfsbane : 1CP towards lycanthrope based items OAF expendable

Tobacco : 1CP towards smoke & poison based items OAF expendable

Gems

Diamond : 1CP towards light based items OAF expendable

 

etc..

 

Really makes ingredients and reagents more useful and important.

[Outsider]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

My old alchemy system was of the 'trigger' variety. In order to prevent excessive production, all alchemy spells created only a single charge per casting, took at least an hour, had side effects (on skill failure for the alchemist, or guaranteed for the user), and required expendable foci. The more powerful the potion effect, the more of each limitation was required.

 

Of course, I never had a player who was actually interested in making an alchemist, so I never had to worry much about just how rare the ingredients were, or how dangerous the side effects.

 

I do very much like the 'points locked up in the ingredients' system too, though.

 

.

[Rapier]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

Have I been hitting the crack-pipe extra heavy or isn't there a bit in FH (or possibly on of the FHGs) that deal with alchemy?

[Curufea]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

Yep- it was discussed in point 2 of the post 6 replies before yours.

 

But we ain't "by the book" kinda folk if we can think of more interesting ideas.

[CourtFool]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

Have I been hitting the crack-pipe extra heavy or isn't there a bit in FH (or possibly on of the FHGs) that deal with alchemy?

You have been hitting the crack-pipe extra heavy but there is a bit in FH and more detail in FHG I.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

Using CPs though does mean the Alchemist will never advance as quickly as other characters - so possibly an Alchemist could be awarded time-based CPs in addition to experience points as normal (say one point per week), that can only be used for the creation of potions (and those potions must be independant).

 

Another route would be to allow rare materials to have CP built right in, to be used for alchemical purposes.

 

"Dragon liver can cure a cold,

Dragon powder grows hair.

With dragon blood you'll never grow old.

Every item is covered with gold."

 

EDIT: I guess this has been touched on already then, but at least I got to sing a song from "Pete's Dragon".

[Curufea]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

It's easy to fall prey to the "read only the latest post and not all the posts"

 

Anyhow, a reagent list could be made part of the setting. There's certaintly literary precedent for Dragon hearts, scales, teath, blood etc...

And there are bound to be others listed as well - What's the most famous potion mixing? Would it be from Macbeth? Eye of Newt...

Hold on, let me look it up (Shakespeare, being public domain is available online as fulltext):-

 

FIRST WITCH.

Round about the caldron go;

In the poison'd entrails throw.--

Toad, that under cold stone,

Days and nights has thirty-one

Swelter'd venom sleeping got,

Boil thou first i' the charmed pot!

 

ALL.

Double, double, toil and trouble;

Fire, burn; and caldron, bubble.

 

SECOND WITCH.

Fillet of a fenny snake,

In the caldron boil and bake;

Eye of newt, and toe of frog,

Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,

Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,

Lizard's leg, and howlet's wing,--

For a charm of powerful trouble,

Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

 

ALL.

Double, double, toil and trouble;

Fire, burn; and caldron, bubble.

 

THIRD WITCH.

Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf,

Witch's mummy, maw and gulf

Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark,

Root of hemlock digg'd i' the dark,

Liver of blaspheming Jew,

Gall of goat, and slips of yew

Sliver'd in the moon's eclipse,

Nose of Turk, and Tartar's lips,

Finger of birth-strangl'd babe

Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,--

Make the gruel thick and slab:

Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,

For the ingredients of our caldron.

 

ALL.

Double, double, toil and trouble;

Fire, burn; and caldron, bubble.

 

SECOND WITCH.

Cool it with a baboon's blood,

Then the charm is firm and good.

 

(from http://www.allshakespeare.com/macbeth/3362 )

[simplygnome]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

I either just put heavy time restrictions, uninterruptable concentration needed, and proper "conditions" on item creation, making it difficult to do it "on the fly"....

 

OR

*note, examples listed below are not made with Alchemist in mind...Mainly magical item creation.

 

I use a variation of the ingredients idea. In the world, many mundane items are linked strongly with magic (sapphires, 4-leaf clovers, newt eyes, etc). Some, as already mentioned, link in very strongly with certain concepts or types of spells/potions. Usually most items of this semi-magical nature will aid in the creation of a large range of magical items, as its energy is absorbed into the foci, but something will grant more if it is used for its "favored" purpose, if it has one. In these examples I usually BAN the players from using personal (or group) CPs to make the items, or limit them to only spending 1/3 of the total cost in points, at maximum.

 

I am very against characters in a heroic level fantasy game spending points on magical items, so I always look for other ways to limit the character.

 

I AM trying to get the player to construct his items completely out of magical materials...

 

The main advantage is that if I don't want an item created, I, as the GM, simply limit the availability of the required materials.

 

For example:

 

• refined Mirthril containes roughly 6 CPS when used as the basis for a magical metal item, however it is vary rare, usually only found in the DarkHold mines, commonly besieged by the Drow forces, and horded by the PCs Dwarven allies when not, making it costly to obtain, either way.
  
• rubies can be used in almost any magical item that deals with summoning, conjuring, or many other magical effects. The player will just have to experiment. He finds the ruby gives him 1 cp on the average, yet for anything related to fire, heat, and demons, it seems to yeild 3cps.
  
• pheonix feathers have natural magic abilites. They give a 1cp values to any magical item, yet they are soft and break easy, making combat weapons, armor, and many other items make from them nearly useless. Wands, necklaces, and headdresses are the most common arrangements. Healing items made this way adds 5cps instead of 1.
  
• flowers can be used for many magics, yet most flowers can only work on a specific type of magic, or group
  
• Oak wood over 100 years old gives off 1CP for all spells related to nature, summoning, elements of wood, or spells related to stalwart defense. It adds +4 to anything specifically involving Treants, plant growth, or defense of the forests.
  
• Other more "common" items include silver powder, crushed bones of magical creatures(including wizards, oddly enough), mushrooms picked from a faerie cirlce, and blood (shown as a drain of body. Note, this is for a campaign with almost NO magical or rapid forms of healing, so it makes Body a precious commodity..I let this option be used rarely, and ALWAYS take advantage of it). All of these will add 1cp to ANY magical creation.
  
• I like pineapples on my pizza (note, previous comment is unrelated to all relevent topics at the moment).
  

 

This way usually requires a large list and works best with players unfamiliar with your system, but Its well worth the time, IMHO.

[AlHazred]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

It's all a question of limiting player ability to make unbalancing numbers of magical items. There's no right answer; all the methods discussed here are perfectly valid and usable, as long as the GM finds the consequences desirable.

 

For instance, in my Harn Hero game, I have wizards with VPPs. The enchantment spells available to them use the "reusable" form of item creation spell listed in the FHG (briefly, you define the item without the Independent limitation, then make a spell which creates this item, with its own set of different limitations). I limit his item creation by a number of means: time and Skill requirements (to make the item), but especially Focus cost. It is incredibly expensive to make lots of items, due to the cost and rarity of materials. So far, he hasn't abused his ability, and everyone's happy.

[gewing]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

My old alchemy system was of the 'trigger' variety. In order to prevent excessive production, all alchemy spells created only a single charge per casting, took at least an hour, had side effects (on skill failure for the alchemist, or guaranteed for the user), and required expendable foci. The more powerful the potion effect, the more of each limitation was required.

 

Of course, I never had a player who was actually interested in making an alchemist, so I never had to worry much about just how rare the ingredients were, or how dangerous the side effects.

 

I do very much like the 'points locked up in the ingredients' system too, though.

 

.

 

IIRC you were the only one in the group who ran an alchemist.

 

 

Bottled Life, anyone?

[Mordax]

Re: How to make an alchemy power.

 

We actually had an alchemist in the last Heroic Fantasy game I was in (50+50, supposed to be doing a D&D adventure without being so bound by D&D's Vancian magic, etc.). We hashed out the arguments here, and reached a similar conclusion to Outsider - trigger items.

 

Assuming I'm remembering correctly, every potion in our alchemist's formulary required the following modifiers on the power as a baseline:

RSR (Alchemy, No Active Point Penalty to Skill Roll) -0

Set Trigger (When Potion is used) +1/4

Extra Time (Brewing, activation only): 6 Hours, -1 3/4

Extra Time (Full Phase, activation only) to Quaff, -1/4

Focus: Obvious, Expendable, Fragile (finished vial of potion), -1 1/4

Concentration: 0 DCV while brewing, -1 (any combat past harsh words ruins all prep work)

4 Charges per batch, default: -1

Minor Side Effects, (failed Alchemy check creates unpredictable potions) -1/4

Variable Limitations, -1/4 (character must have access to either a Bulky Focus Lab, higher quality ingredients, or their RSR limitation gets worse)

 

This allowed the player all the power of a crafting skill: assuming he had enough time and ingredients, he made permanent equipment that was effectively Independent (without getting the point break). They could be handed out to the party, or even sold, without worrying about the artificial constraint of Delayed Power.

 

And the GM could utterly restrict what we could and couldn't get by controlling the flow of ingredients - it's exactly the same notion as "Items contain CP" without having to actually do it. And alchemy was dangerous if we weren't in a civilized area, with access to a proper lab.

 

And then the potions were created around pretty flexible powers. Like, instead of taking separate recipes for "Sleeping Powder" and "Wolfsbane Arrows," he covered poisons with:

 

Poison Recipes: Drain any Physical Attribute one at a time (+1/4), Variable Trigger (+1/2), NND (LS [Poison]; +1/2), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; +3/4); Extra Time (6 Hours, Brewing Time; -1 3/4), OAF Fragile Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; Lab & Finished Flasks; -1 1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; -1), 4 Charges (-1), Side Effects (-1/2), Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; Bulky OAF Lab or More Difficult Skill Roll; -1/2), Requires An Alchemy Roll And A KS [Poisons] Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/4)

 

So one point expenditure covered almost any poisonous weapon he wanted.

 

Healing Potions were bought on a Compound Power, where additional dice required increasingly rare components - like, the first 1d6 only required rose petals, but ramping it up to 4d6 Heals Limbs required reasonably fresh blood from a regenerating creature - we never, ever saw one in play.

 

He also had Invisibility Potions (Invisibility plus Naked Power Advantage: IPE for melee attacks), Grenade Recipes (RKA, Range By STR, 1 Hex AoE, Variable SFX), and Shapeshifting Potions (Continuous Charge Multiform, required a piece of the monster to be emulated).

 

It worked really, really well: we had an edge as a whole group, but we were very careful with them because they were a huge pain to restock.