Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

[OddHat]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

We should just accept them as mistakes and make the adjustments ourselves rather than trying to debate how the Champions can or cannot win' date=' because they can't.[/quote']

 

When the actual folks who wrote the books have come out and said that "Champions" is just a place-holder, maybe players and GMs should listen?

[MitchellS]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

When the actual folks who wrote the books have come out and said that "Champions" is just a place-holder' date=' maybe players and GMs should listen?[/quote']

I agree we should just listen, but I personally find the term "place holder" to be uninteresting. It adds nothing to the continuity of the universe. I'd much rather know that Viperia is hunted by the Sentinels or the Peacekeepers then to see The Champions name pop up on character sheets where it really shouldn't belong just because it is a place-holder. What is the point of having a defined universe with a dozen superhero teams if they never come into play?

 

IMO the CU should be a thriving, real world which the player's characters can fit into, with the GM deciding where and how. In the case of villains there should be rogue's galleries. Certain villains should be Champions foes, and Sentinel's foes, and Justice Squadron foes. That way when the PCs encounter them they have an idea of who they should be contacting to get additional information. It builds continuity and adds spice to the world. Right now everything is almost generic with no real thought put into the hows and whys. There is more continuity in your New Circle then there is in most of the current CU.

 

I understand because of the name Champions they want those characters to be the icons for the game, but if that is the case then Hero Games should have done two other things: 1-make the Champions more powerful than starting level characters, and 2-not populated their world with so many other superheroes. I guess I'd just really like to see more of the Champions Universe and less about the Champions.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

The Champions can't beat Viperia [baring game mechanics like Viperia rolling poorly every time and the Champions rolling very well].

 

(snip)

 

We should just accept them as mistakes and make the adjustments ourselves rather than trying to debate how the Champions can or cannot win, because they can't.

Or maybe we can run some sample battles and report on them, then come to a conclusion?

[MitchellS]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Or maybe we can run some sample battles and report on them' date=' [i']then[/i] come to a conclusion?

I have 23 years of Champions experience. I can tell just by looking at the character sheet that they can't beat her. They can delay it into 2 turns but she has too much firepower, speed, and defenses. Ironclad is the only character who can do serious damage to her with his find weakness. If Viperia just chooses to put her levels on defense and dodge 4 times out of 8 she will toast the Champions. It really is a one-sided battle. Only lucky rolls could change it.

[CBikle]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Although I think this thread has gone on longer than it needed to, I'll contribute to it and become part of the problem.

 

Ironclad has Find Weakness on his punch and Viperia does not have Lack Of Weakness. Also I noticed that she has a signicant Vulnerability to Magic.

 

Also I'm wondering if it wasn't assumed that the Champions would've gained XP and become a little tougher around the time that most GMs would introduce Viperia.

[MitchellS]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Ironclad has Find Weakness on his punch and Viperia does not have Lack Of Weakness. Also I noticed that she has a signicant Vulnerability to Magic.

Which is why Witchcraft is dropped first and Ironclad second. They are the only two characters who can cause Viperia any real damage.

 

Also I'm wondering if it wasn't assumed that the Champions would've gained XP and become a little tougher around the time that most GMs would introduce Viperia.

I don't see that as being assumed at all. As was has been said above, the Champions are just place-holder names. There is not continuity thinking involved.

[OddHat]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

There is more continuity in your New Circle then there is in most of the current CU.

 

Looking at the character back-stories of the New Circle, the continuity is pretty good, especially once the 750 point write ups, Chang Kar-Wai (and his minions) and Oppenheimer are taken into acount. On the other hand, I was intentionally trying not to give generic characters, and I did far fewer than Steve.

 

However, I agree that it would be nice in some ways to see a more textured CU. That's what I liked about Demon; it felt like an epic story you could put your characters into. On the other hand, I'd hate to see a White Wolf style metaplot where your characters are bit players (at best) in someone else's story. It's a tough balancing act.

[MitchellS]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

However' date=' I agree that it would be nice in some ways to see a more textured CU. That's what I liked about Demon; it felt like an epic story you could put your characters into. On the other hand, I'd hate to see a White Wolf style metaplot where your characters are bit players (at best) in someone else's story. It's a tough balancing act.[/quote']

I agree. I don't ever want to see the players' characters treated as bit-players in any game. But I don't believe that is necessary by any means. As with my Spider-man example above, there are plenty of villains to go around to keep every power level hero group happy. I just happen to like continuity tie-ins. The fact that the New Warriors need to contact the Fantastic Four to get information about the Wizard is just story telling; and a reason to create inter-group harmony/tension, or just plain story plots: Why did the Human Torch sound so odd when we talked to him now? We better check on that when we finish with the Wizard.

 

And DEMON was way-cool.

[Katherine]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Which is why Witchcraft is dropped first and Ironclad second. They are the only two characters who can cause Viperia any real damage.

.

 

Would Vipera be that tactical or could she be distracted by taunts, diversions and other tricks to harder targets? Serious question as I've heard the character isn't terribly tactical.

[MitchellS]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Would Vipera be that tactical or could she be distracted by taunts' date=' diversions and other tricks to harder targets? Serious question as I've heard the character isn't terribly tactical.[/quote']

Viperia has a 23 Int and none of the common "arrogant" and "overconfident" psychological limitations so commonly given out to powerful villains. Viperia might not know much about the world but when it comes to combat she is ready and able for it. Viperia would understand her weakness to magic and would deal with that first even if Witchcraft is not that powerful, IMO.

[CBikle]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Would Vipera be that tactical or could she be distracted by taunts' date=' diversions and other tricks to harder targets? Serious question as I've heard the character isn't terribly tactical.[/quote']

 

That's a good point, but I think the emphasis on this thread has been to treat the battle as an arena-style combat simulation. No role-playing, just metagaming out a battle purely based on the numbers.

 

The tactical thing could go both ways in the sense that one or more of the Champions might be busy trying to evacuate and save innocents and minimize property-damage.

 

The worst case scenario is one where the Champions and Viperia fight in an area with heavy vehicle traffic and Viperia just starts throwing cars full of people at the Champions.

 

Of course, like you said, she might not be that tactically-inclined.

 

Actually I take that back. If Viperia gets to decide where the fight is, she could stage the fight near a nuclear reactor. Some of the Champs would likely start getting people out of there while the rest have to fight Viperia and possibly have to deal with taking radiation damage (Viperia is immune to radiation).

[assault]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

The easiest way for the Champions to beat Viperia is to introduce her to Hostess Cup Cakes.

 

At least, it works that way in the ads.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

I really believe the difference between you and I is that I accept that comic books and games are different in one fundamental way: In comic books heroes are assigned opponents based on their power levels. In the game heroes become more powerful over time and so fight more powerful opponents as the game progresses. Spider-man fights Doc Octopus, Electro, and Venom; character who would be a 2 panel battle for Thor.

 

It is very clear that there are villains in the CU who are substantially tougher than 350 point starting characters and should not be fought by them unless the encounter is designed as a short-term delaying tactic. The fact that Hero Games has decided to have a lot of villains hunted by the Champions is really nothing more than a continuity error on the part of the company. It is easier and quicker to just plop "The Champions" on the line than it is to decide whether it should be one of the other dozen hero teams. The fact that the Champions hunted doesn't list as Less Powerful is just a speed typo.

 

The Champions can't beat Viperia [baring game mechanics like Viperia rolling poorly every time and the Champions rolling very well]. The fact that they are hunting Viperia is just a continuity error. The fact that they are listed as More Power is just a speed error. I'm willing to accept that and make the proper adjustments myself. I hope that in the future Hero Games will actually think through some of these things before hand, because it does bring a sense of more life within the CU, which I feel is needed. But when your line developer writes 5 books a year and edits 13 more there are going to be mistakes because there is not enough time to think things through completely. We should just accept them as mistakes and make the adjustments ourselves rather than trying to debate how the Champions can or cannot win, because they can't.

 

Fair enough.

 

What I want to see, though, is an Experienced Champions writeup at some point. Not just higher point values for the members ( ~500 ), but some development in the characters. What have they done since they founded the team?? Who have they fought?? Have they been hunted by the law?? How have each of the individual members changed over time??

[Katherine]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

The easiest way for the Champions to beat Viperia is to introduce her to Hostess Cup Cakes.

 

At least, it works that way in the ads.

 

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Although I think this thread has gone on longer than it needed to, I'll contribute to it and become part of the problem.

 

Ironclad has Find Weakness on his punch and Viperia does not have Lack Of Weakness. Also I noticed that she has a signicant Vulnerability to Magic.

-The find weakness doesn't make that much of a difference in the end, since he's still limited to melee combat. Given Viperia's mobility, he'll have a hard time bringing it to bear. Also, while it'd be nice if it worked, he's not strong enough to stun her with a hit, meaning at best, he hits her, does some stun, and then she wallops him.

 

-The problem with the magic weakness, from the Champion's point of view, is they can't really exploit it well. Witchcraft's EB is only 9d6, so she can only manage about 46 Stun per hit, just slightly more than the people with 12d6 EBs can do. Her ego attack is 6d6, but with Viperia's mental defense, it averages even less damage. The other mental attacks are not effected by the weakness. The PRE Drain and Transform both bounce off her Power Defense, even with the weakness. Most importantly, the only Champion who has magic is also the one with the weakest defense, such that even a single hit leaves her KOed.

 

Also I'm wondering if it wasn't assumed that the Champions would've gained XP and become a little tougher around the time that most GMs would introduce Viperia.

 

Could be the case, but it'd have to be a hell of alot of XP to reach MoPow.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Viperia has a 23 Int and none of the common "arrogant" and "overconfident" psychological limitations so commonly given out to powerful villains. Viperia might not know much about the world but when it comes to combat she is ready and able for it. Viperia would understand her weakness to magic and would deal with that first even if Witchcraft is not that powerful' date=' IMO.[/quote']

 

And even if she didn't deal with her first necessarily, she's more than bright enough to recognize "Ow, that hurt more than the others, I should take attack her first." Likewise for Ironclad, if he makes the FW roll.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

That's a good point, but I think the emphasis on this thread has been to treat the battle as an arena-style combat simulation. No role-playing, just metagaming out a battle purely based on the numbers.

 

The tactical thing could go both ways in the sense that one or more of the Champions might be busy trying to evacuate and save innocents and minimize property-damage.

 

The worst case scenario is one where the Champions and Viperia fight in an area with heavy vehicle traffic and Viperia just starts throwing cars full of people at the Champions.

 

Of course, like you said, she might not be that tactically-inclined.

 

Actually I take that back. If Viperia gets to decide where the fight is, she could stage the fight near a nuclear reactor. Some of the Champs would likely start getting people out of there while the rest have to fight Viperia and possibly have to deal with taking radiation damage (Viperia is immune to radiation).

 

Not only that, but IIRC, her Absorbtion can feed off of radiation. So, inside a nuclear reactor, she'd be getting more STR and END ( IIRC ) the whole fight. . .

[TheEmerged]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

What I want to see, though, is an Experienced Champions writeup at some point. Not just higher point values for the members ( ~500 ), but some development in the characters. What have they done since they founded the team?? Who have they fought?? Have they been hunted by the law?? How have each of the individual members changed over time??

 

For my own campaign, I use writeups of the Champions in the 500-700 Range (I also use a slightly different lineup). However HERO policies forbid posting updates of published characters without permission, so to get what you want it'd have to come from an official source.

 

Of course, I'd like to see more "growth chains" in HERO products. The little blurbs of how to update them are okay but insufficient in my opinion.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Anyone else want to see Herosphere juiced up to handle the combat and ready to import .hdc characters? :drool:

[MitchellS]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

What I want to see' date=' though, is an Experienced Champions writeup at some point. Not just higher point values for the members ( ~500 ), but some development in the characters. What have they done since they founded the team?? Who have they fought?? Have they been hunted by the law?? How have each of the individual members changed over time??[/quote']

I agree with you completely. My personal feeling is that the timeline should be updated every year, even if it is just a pdf product [which could be something that helps stimulate the Hero pdf market]. At the very least I would think about creating a one or two page Digital Hero article every month that gives news blurbs. Something like: "Sentinels have run in with Eurostar off the coast of New England," followed by one paragraph story, and "Bay Guardians clash with Lemurian Leviathan at Alcatraz," again followed by the short article. Some of these articles could be in the form of SNN interviews. Anything to bring the characters of the CU to life. Right now there is no sense that the CU is a living place. Everything is just static. The books we get just fill in holes in the CU environment but do nothing to advance the timeline or tell us how anyone is progressing. Just as often as not we needs the stories as well as the numbers.

 

Since Hero Games wants to make the Champions the iconic characters of the universe I personally would have designed them as such. I would have made them the 750 point major team of the CU. Then I would have made one of the other teams the starting level team. As they are now the Champions are the characters who are always mentioned but really don't have enough firepower to deal with half the things they might encounter.

 

I can't speak for anyone but myself but I love continuity and a living breathing campaign to play in. Right now we don't have that for the CU, which is part of the reason I don't play in that world, and the reason the campaign I'm currently writing is not in the CU world too. And that is a sad thing because I can see the potential that is within the CU. It just needs the company to bring it to life.

[Kristopher]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

My impression is the idea with the CU was to make it as generic and open-ended as possible, and maybe they ended up trying to appeal to everyone at once. Maybe it's a result of different writers working on different books, too. You'd have to ask Steve and crew for the real answer.

 

If you read some of the character posting threads, such as OddHat's New Circle, where people try to stay within the bounds of the CU, the material there shows a lot of the potential that's there in the CU. On the other hand, maybe that open-ended nature is what makes it possible for so many different people to fit their characters into the CU -- a more specific, detailed, defined setting might make it harder for a character like Saviel to be tied in with Takofanes and Archangel and Doc D, while also fitting the New Circle and all their villains, and the Quarter, and everyone else posted to that thread into the same extant setting.

[MitchellS]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

My impression is the idea with the CU was to make it as generic and open-ended as possible, and maybe they ended up trying to appeal to everyone at once. Maybe it's a result of different writers working on different books, too. You'd have to ask Steve and crew for the real answer.

 

If you read some of the character posting threads, such as OddHat's New Circle, where people try to stay within the bounds of the CU, the material there shows a lot of the potential that's there in the CU. On the other hand, maybe that open-ended nature is what makes it possible for so many different people to fit their characters into the CU -- a more specific, detailed, defined setting might make it harder for a character like Saviel to be tied in with Takofanes and Archangel and Doc D, while also fitting the New Circle and all their villains, and the Quarter, and everyone else posted to that thread into the same extant setting.

I agree it should be open ended. I just believe the CU needs flavoring. There are 100 superheroes listed in the US alone, and there are many more who are not on that list. Let's find out what they are doing. Let's find out what's going on in the CU. Bring it to life for us.

 

Reading the CU products is sort of like reading a cross-over issue of Spider-man and realizing there are 30 other titles in the Marvel Universe which you know nothing about, and never will know about, so you just try to make do with Spider-man. I personally don't like that feeling. I might be in the minority.

 

The New Circle is a great thread. That has been some of the most interesting material I have read in a long time. I love how most of the characters tie into the CU. In many ways the New Circle characters are much more interesting than the published CU characters. I would have happily have purchased a New Circle sourcebook if it were out. That is the type of thing I'd like to see for all the hero groups.

[OddHat]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

The New Circle is a great thread. That has been some of the most interesting material I have read in a long time. I love how most of the characters tie into the CU. In many ways the New Circle characters are much more interesting than the published CU characters. I would have happily have purchased a New Circle sourcebook if it were out. That is the type of thing I'd like to see for all the hero groups.

 

My sincere thanks.

 

Tell Steve.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

I know, its a fine line. Too much metaplot is bad, but no setting advancement is bad.

 

Gotta agree that, if I designed the Champions first off, I'd build them higher point. Not quite *that* high; most have only been heroes a couple of years tops. However, about 500-600 points seems about right.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Sorry I haven't responded to the last few pages. I wrote my first post while on vacation without the characters in front of me, and the last forty-eight hours has been spent mostly in crisis mode.

 

Looking at the characters, I think she's beatable by the Champions, but probably only 1-2 times in 10 - the odds are certainly not enough to justify a More Powerful condition on the Hunted. Though I do tend to use "Hunted by the Champions" as a "Hunted by the PCs" placeholder, and most PC teams I've seen of moderate power level or higher *can* take her.

 

I'll look forward to seeing the write-up of the fight.

 

As for the metaplot issue, I ain't touching that with 30" of stretching on a pole. :-)