Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

[Agent X]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

If you've got Iron Man you've still got a hero with what? 4 or 5 maybe 6 phases?

If you've got Angel with Iron Man then you've probably got double the actions. There are some things Angel can do freeing up Iron Man's actions for the things Angel can't do.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

My own personal question is whether Angel has been shown doing anything in the comics that would justify a 35 STR.

 

Otherwise I'd switch to the Wildcards style explanation that Warren has some very simple TK to boost his wings and provide him with the lift necessary to fly.

I would say he's just pushing his strength ...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I think Angel's wings have higher STR than his arms. His wings provide suficient lift to carry him and at least a couple of other people (he has no difficulty carrying just one) with no apparent decline in flight speed or mobility. I don't think he can bench press superhuman amounts, but I think his wings have extra STR.

 

This was done with hawkgirml some years ago when she KO'd an opponent who had bound her hands. She noted something to the effect of "Idiot. You bind my hands, but it's my wings that are strong enough to carry my weight effortlessly."

 

With rerspect to Angel, it's been noted on many occasions he is fully adapted for flight. This includes a hollow bone structure, a reduced need for oxygen (ie he is not impeded by high altitudes) and reduced sensitivity to cold (again, altitude). He should logically alos be resistant to UV and solar radiation, as he is adapted to fly above the clouds where less is filtered out by the sun. Reasonably, he also likely has enhanced vision to better see things on the ground while flying.

[Lightray]

This was done with hawkgirml some years ago when she KO'd an opponent who had bound her hands. She noted something to the effect of "Idiot. You bind my hands' date=' but it's my wings that are strong enough to carry my weight effortlessly."[/quote']

Hawkgirml's wings are artificial. AND, they aren't strong enough to carry her weight effortlessly -- that's why she and Hawkmamn need their Nth-metal harnesses.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Hawkgirml's wings are artificial. AND' date=' they aren't strong enough to carry her weight effortlessly -- that's why she and Hawkmamn need their Nth-metal harnesses.[/quote']

 

This was old enough to be "Earth 1 Thanagar Hawkgirl", actually, long before the two Hawks were connected and Nth Metal left Earth 2. The writer de jour had taken the approach that her wings alone carried her. IIRC, the silver/bronze age Thanagar hawks had a more technological "lift", controlled by their belts, with the wings provided propulsion and navigation. Without the wings, Hawkman could rise and fall, but couldn't move horizontally effectively.

 

In any case, Angel doesn't have an Nth metal belt. He is a mutant who can physically fly. If a goose's wings can break limbs, how strong must Angel's wings be?

[phydaux]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

That said' date=' he's lookin' expensive. 4-500pts is hardly a weak concept... Heh.[/quote']

 

I buddy of mine and I did a write up of Daredevil back in the Champs III days.

 

Ol' Horn Head is a fairly low powered super, much less relative power than Spidy or even Captan America, but by the time we were done with a reasonable representation of his powers, we were over 400 points.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

In any case' date=' Angel doesn't have an Nth metal belt. He is a mutant who can physically fly. If a goose's wings can break limbs, how strong must Angel's wings be?[/quote']I got hit by a goose's wings back when I was about 16. (Ducks and geese were common in a pond near my house in Minnesota.) It hurt, and left an ugly bruise, but it didn't break my leg. It might break a small child's, or a dog's.

 

Nonetheless, your point was well taken. A goose weighs only 20-25 pounds and still hits hard enough to bruise. Angel's wings lift a 180 pound man, so their power would be correspondingly greater. A 25 or 30 STR for the wings would not be unreasonable, even if his arms are not that strong.

[assault]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

For example, say you built Black Canary. You could say that she's an Energy Projector, why does she need Martial Arts?

...

I think Dinah learned to fight before she learned of her scream, but even if it were the other way round, it would still make sense for her to learn to defend herself.

 

Unfortunately, this example is completely backwards.

 

Black Canary was a non-powered martial artist character who was given an energy blast twenty-five years after her first appearance!

 

So, you technically should have written:

"For example, say you built Black Canary. You could say that she's a Martial Artist, why does she need Energy Blast?"

 

Silliness aside, your main point is absolutely correct.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

First' date=' it entirely makes sense for characters who have no offensive capabilities to learn martial arts, or those with poor defences to wear body armour or have personal force fields. Think of the Legion Flight Rings, or the standard X-Men training (martial arts, plus mental powers resistance training). Just as the police or armed forces are trained to be fit and to know self defence, so would heroes. Even if you don't belong to a group, I think it makes sense for characters to learn somehting which might help them out in a fix. [/quote']

 

It might from a purely game point of view, but not necessarily from a conceptual point of view. Not everyone should have martial arts no matter what the game-centric reasons may be. Superheroes don't necessarily receive any special training prior to becoming heroes.

 

Also, the flight rings and the X-Men training (and I'll even throw in their reinforced uniforms) reinforce my point. Science and training are great rationales for the provision of the powers/abilities, but that doesn't necessarily mean every character should have them. Once in a while, of course, but not all across the board. Not every superhero should have access to specially-designed costumes that are bullet resistant. Not every superhero should have the ability to fend off mental attacks. Not every superhero needs to have a prominant better-than-normal mode of travel. You'll always be able to find exceptions to the rule, but my argument is simply that concept should take precedent over mechanics 99.9% of the time.

 

For example' date=' say you built Black Canary. You could say that she's an Energy Projector, why does she need Martial Arts? The answer is that Martial Arts are more reliable than her powers, not just in terms of losing them, as she did for many years, but also because, in the comics, she's got more control over her punches (the scream is portrayed as being a little more brutal and a weapon of last resort, normally). Also, there might be an opponent who is unaffected by sonic powers, or Dinah cannot use them (because there's a hostage, for example). Therefore it makes sense for the 'real' character as much as it does in game terms. I think Dinah learned to fight before she learned of her scream, but even if it were the other way round, it would still make sense for her to learn to defend herself.[/quote']

 

I understand your point, and from the perspective of "there's always an exception" I agree with it, but in my opinion, Black Canary is a one-trick pony. She can scream. The martial arts are a part of her concept as a (sort of) street level hero/detective. It makes sense for her. It doesn't make sense to give Superman martial arts, or Flash, or Iron Man or Thor, etc, etc. Experience reflected through combat levels is one thing, but giving them martial arts as a game mechanic to reflect "training" won't apply to many (if not most) superheroes.

 

However, I quite agree that the flying alien bricks don't need heat vision/Martian vision, whatever. It makes them that bit too versatile in a way that, for example, Wonder Woman's lasso does not.

 

Agreed.

 

The second point is on 'one trick ponies'. In comics, they can just about work as characters, because the writers can create situations where the unique abilities work. In a game, that could still happen, but you are more likely to face a situation where the scenario doesn't have an opportunity for the 'pony' to shine, or even worse, there's someone else on the team who overlaps powers. As someone said above, if you've got Iron Man, you don't need the Angel.

 

Again, if the GM is on the ball, there will always be some way for a 'one trick pony' to contribute. Otherwise the GM shouldn't have let the character into the game.

 

Agent X's comments reflect my own opinions. Angel could easily support Iron Man in combat, or at the very least free him up for big-gun duty while he takes care of crowd control, rescue operations, etc.

 

I think single power villains can still work brilliantly. Count Vertigo doesn't need any other abilities, as he chooses when to strike and you'll be left helpless. A hero (especially in a game), needs to be able to help out in a variety of situations. In many cases this can be dealt with through a versatile use of powers (wings can indeed be used in a variety of ways), but with some powers, like Cypher's or Count Vertigo's, there really isn't a lot of leeway.

 

Cypher has been thoroughly discussed in several other threads, and frankly he could've been a MAJOR player in the Marvel Universe if handled correctly. Count Vertigo is someone I'd consider more of a Dark Champions villain than a serious superhero, but played correctly even he could be challenging.

 

I understand where you're coming from, though. I'm just attempting to clarify my own perspective. All things being equal, I don't believe there are any unplayable characters.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Not every superhero should have access to specially-designed costumes that are bullet resistant. Not every superhero should have the ability to fend off mental attacks. Not every superhero needs to have a prominant better-than-normal mode of travel. You'll always be able to find exceptions to the rule, but my argument is simply that concept should take precedent over mechanics 99.9% of the time.

 

and yet most of them do have these things soem how they will be protected from bullets even if the, re shoudl be as vunerable as a normal person to bullets, mental defense is rarer in comis bust still common and every one has a better than normal means of transport even if its just a super vheical or swing lines.

[nexus]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Just to play Devil's Advocate, an energy blaster (for example) could have MA for many reasons.

 

1. They had it before they gained their powers and keep in practice for the excersize or because they enjoy it

 

2. They are just nartually good at hand to hand combat, unfortunately fate gave them the power to shoot gamma rays out of their fingers.

 

3. They wanted to round out their abilities in case they came across someone they couldn't harm with their blast or a situation where they couldn't use it. Just because I'm good with a gun, doesn't mean its always appropriate to use one or I'll always have the chance.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

and yet most of them do have these things soem how they will be protected from bullets even if the' date=' re shoudl be as vunerable as a normal person to bullets, mental defense is rarer in comis bust still common and every one has a better than normal means of transport even if its just a super vheical or swing lines.[/quote']

 

Well, yeah, but that's comics, and frankly they don't even following character consistancy from one book to the next, or from one writer to the next.

 

My point is that if you make Winged Hero Guy you can do it without adding the stereotypical "reinforced costume", mental defense, martial arts, a gun, or anything else that detracts from having a flying hero. And you can make him work. It's about concept. If your concept is to have Winged Hero Guy be a flying gladiator, complete with expert combat training, a variety of weaponry both melee and ranged, and a disciplined mind that resists attempts at subversion, cool.

 

I'm against the "Cable" characters--mutant ninja cyborg telekinetic supersoldiers with big guns. I don't even like Superman's overall concept, and don't get me started on Martian Manhunter.

 

Make a character however you like, but be true to the concept, not the game rules. It's that simply (for me, anyway).

[Lightray]

I don't even like Superman's overall concept' date=' and don't get me started on Martian Manhunter.[/quote']

Heh. Just think back to Silver Age Superman -- super-sciences, Kryptonian martial arts, Kryptonian gadgeteer (from the Nightwing & Flamebird stuff), followers (Krypto), base (Fortress of Solitude), etc., etc. Strays pretty far from the "flying brick" concept.

 

On the other hand, his player DID have an awful lot of exp to spend...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Well, yeah, but that's comics, and frankly they don't even following character consistancy from one book to the next, or from one writer to the next.

 

My point is that if you make Winged Hero Guy you can do it without adding the stereotypical "reinforced costume", mental defense, martial arts, a gun, or anything else that detracts from having a flying hero. And you can make him work. It's about concept. If your concept is to have Winged Hero Guy be a flying gladiator, complete with expert combat training, a variety of weaponry both melee and ranged, and a disciplined mind that resists attempts at subversion, cool.

 

I'm against the "Cable" characters--mutant ninja cyborg telekinetic supersoldiers with big guns. I don't even like Superman's overall concept, and don't get me started on Martian Manhunter.

 

Make a character however you like, but be true to the concept, not the game rules. It's that simply (for me, anyway).

 

Actually, characters with focus make better use of the game rules. "I can do anything" is expensive.

 

Incidently, I really like MM (because it's just so FUNNY to think about why someone would make him as a PC... and because really, it's actually a pretty logical character. I mean, given you're in the DCverse.*), but also have had fun with other, odder concepts. Incidently, most superpowers can be "extended" into increased combat ability (in hand to hand or range, depending on type), so if you asssume the PC has _tried_ to improve their fighting abilities it's pretty easy.

 

 

* What do I mean by this? He's a supershapeshifter with mental powers. In the DCverse, super vision and all those other "ooh, ands" seem to be reachable physical enhancements. So I don't think it's unreasonable for a supershapeshifter to be able to mimic Superman's powers. Yes, the precise explanations and stuff don't always (or even fairly often) match this, but that doesn't matter - comics are full of contradictions and exceptions.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Heh. Just think back to Silver Age Superman -- super-sciences, Kryptonian martial arts, Kryptonian gadgeteer (from the Nightwing & Flamebird stuff), followers (Krypto), base (Fortress of Solitude), etc., etc. Strays pretty far from the "flying brick" concept.

 

On the other hand, his player DID have an awful lot of exp to spend...

 

Ah, but SAS had a different concept, remember? He was an All Round Super Human. Better in Every Way!

[nexus]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I think its being a little inside the box.

 

A "Flying Hero" can have Martial Arts. MA manuvers don't have to mean you spent time in a dojo. If you're character is good at performing Move Bys and fighting while flying, why not have himg Flying Dodge and Passing Strike particularly with Experience?

 

A Reinforced costume isn't a concept breaking idea. If I was going to go into a life where people would regularly be shooting at me with machine guns and trying to hit me with cars, some sort of armor would be a logical rationale choice. So might carrying a gun. Particularly if the character has alot of money.

 

Also, sometimes you do have to bow to the game rules. In a comic or story running around with no armor is acceptable. The story won't let you be injured unless its approrpriate. In a game that is harder to rely on. Getting some resistant defense, even just combat luck is a generally a good idea. Just in case.

[proditor]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I agree with Nexus about Martial arts being on the edge of the box if not outright in it. In addition to "Air/Wing fighting" for lack of a better term, you also had Peregrine fighting Angel in Contest of Champions. Angel was pretty surprised when Peregrine busted out the Savate on him and started dancing on his head. His response was something along the lines of "Hey, I invented the fight and fly routine, no two-bit kickboxer is going to get the better of me!"

[Vanguard00]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Please take my comments in the context of arguing against the statement that Angel is "the worst concept ever". I'm not saying a winged hero can't have martial arts--I gave an example of such, and I play one now. I'm not even saying a hero can't have all the things I listed and stay in concept. What I'm saying is this: if your concept is a "hero with wings", don't let the pressure to give him a gun and armor and lightning from his arse and whatever else just because you think he wouldn't keep up in a game. Plenty of suggestions have been given on how to round out the point totals and still make a "hero with wings" a useful and fun character.

 

My comments were defending the idea that a good character concept can be incredibly fun, rewarding and useful in spite of not having all the stereotypical hero accouterments. You don't have to be able to do it all to be a good character. A GM should be able to build on the strengths of your character as well as he can exploit the weaknesses, so frankly I don't feel the need to worry about 'em as much.

[nexus]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

My comments were defending the idea that a good character concept can be incredibly fun' date=' rewarding and useful in spite of not having all the stereotypical hero accouterments. You don't have to be able to do it all to be a good character. A GM should be able to build on the strengths of your character as well as he can exploit the weaknesses, so frankly I don't feel the need to worry about 'em as much.[/quote']

 

Sorry if I came off harshly. I actually like Angel as a character concept myself. But I do think a "well rounded" but in character concept is good. Not nessecarily without weakness or a "do all" (those are kind of dull) but having a glaring open spot (such as incredibly low defenses, no effective means of attack, etc) is going to limit your options more in a game than in a story. Be prepared for that.

[Rikathos]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Not to beat a dead horse with a rubber chicken here..

 

But as stated before by whom I am not precisely sure...

 

I think the cool level or depth of Angel is in a direct relationship with the

Writer. Warren Worthington has his layers and I think it depends on how the writer depicts him.

 

And also already mentioned its the depth of character and the possibilities of the character's traits interacting with others that can make him or her interesting.

 

If all he had was wings. Yeah that would be pretty 1 dimensional.

 

However as many Marvel writers fail to do is research the characters.

Find out about the characters past. Work with it as a basic structure.

Warren has gone from being the Rich kid that didn't belong to losing his wings and becoming the pawn of Apocolypse(However they spell it.) He had to recover from that and blue skin I might add to then have his wings grow back.

I think the X-Men need a Mutant Psychoanalyst to help with the Legion of issues the X-babies have.

So Warren has scars lots of scars.

But being its Marvel I'm sure they will re-write him and screw the past.

Cause its all about making your mark and not writing a good story.

 

If you dislike Angel so much..What are your thoughts on Falcon?

His Wings are gadget based and his claim to fame is being Cap's sidekick, An Avenger, and a Social worker. Except for the obvious differences how is he different from Angel? He's a guy that can fly.

But...As shown by Priest in Captain American and Falcon he can be rather complex and interesting and a down right bad ass. If you haven't checked it out, and you like to follow the advice of strangers I recommend it as a good read.

[Bengal]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Falcon started out with a grappling hook, not wings. The wings came later on. And now, he uses grappling stars on thin lines to snare his opponents or other useful junk. So that's way more power than Angel! You gotta keep reading people!

 

 

Wait, you're right, there's absolutely no difference, except you can take Falc's powers away more easily.

 

 

Falcon may be as interesting as Angel, but he's not nearly as accomplished. You are right when you call him 'Cap's Sidekick' since that is about as far as he's gotten. Angel is an integral and fouding member of the number one source for whining and angst in the MU, and has spawned a winged clone. All Falcon got was a trained pigeon and one lousy miniseries.

[nightbringer256]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

in a game i run one PC has a hero just like angel. his only power is flight. he is a 250 point character. he is the teams "tactical advice officer", not to be confused with team leader. anyways him and 4 other members of the team, all 250 pts (link, brick, sailor jupiter, mage) took out the 5th ed version of Dr. DESTROYER!!!!!

 

i so did not see there tackics coming

 

"angel" tackled him into the brick who grabed and held the other half of his action. when Dr. D went to fry him with his 10d6 RKA the brick used his 1/2 held action to finish the grab with a ridirect (sp). Dr. D almost killed him self. *sigh*

 

for more info see the "i feel humiliated" thread

[proditor]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Falcon started out with a grappling hook, not wings. The wings came later on. And now, he uses grappling stars on thin lines to snare his opponents or other useful junk. So that's way more power than Angel! You gotta keep reading people!

 

 

Wait, you're right, there's absolutely no difference, except you can take Falc's powers away more easily.

 

 

Falcon may be as interesting as Angel, but he's not nearly as accomplished. You are right when you call him 'Cap's Sidekick' since that is about as far as he's gotten. Angel is an integral and fouding member of the number one source for whining and angst in the MU, and has spawned a winged clone. All Falcon got was a trained pigeon and one lousy miniseries.

*Shrug* If it came down to fisticuffs, my money would be on Falcon. Streetfighting ex-drug dealing pimp city councilmen tend to be bad asses, especially when winghead trains them.

[Bengal]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Dude, no question, Falc would break Warren's hollow bones and use them to snort coke out of in about a half a panel.

[knuckles]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Hmm, hadn't really thought of Falcon even though i am currently reading the Captain America and Falcon comic. Yes you are quite right he is 'a guy with wings' and worse 'Caps sidekick'. Its not as if i picked the comic off the shelf thinking "ooh cool a new Falcon comic!"

 

If it were to come down to a celebrity deathmatch type scenario i would most certainly have to back Falcon to whup Angel's boney ass. How about it you Herophile number crunchers lets have a working 5th edition version of Falcon