st barbara Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 Again to "Lupus". The Enigma machines were also secured by the British (especially the naval machine in a spectacular raid on a sinking U-Boat, immortalised and wrongly attributed to the U S A in the film "U571") and others, but of course later in the war. As you say what if the Allies DON'T break the German codes and the Germans are able to understand the Allied codes AND the language of the Navajo "Windtalkers" that the U S A used as radio operators, without the Allies knowing about it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 Re: strategic bombers. Germany was certainly working on jet-powered bombers by the end of the war. I don't recall if they got any working. Both that project and the ME-262, however, could have gotten off the ground a lot earlier had more effort been put into them. Naturally, not ALL the research projects could have had full effort put into them. (Unless, perhaps, they managed to catch a lot more scientists before they fled and put them to work.) The most important thing to swing things into Germany and Japan's favour, though, is to stop the codebreakers. Either the Axis gets better code-wrtiers, or kill off the Allied code-breakers. If I remember, Enigma was broken when a Polish scientist came into Britain holding an electronic replica of an Enigma machine. Had he been stopped, that code would certainly have been harder to break. I'm not so familiar with the breaking of the Japanese naval codes. I do know that once the first one went down, the later ones fell pretty quickly. I'm sure it could be fixed so that they weren't broken, though. (And perhaps they broke the Allied codes, so managed to get much greater effectiveness in their anti-shipping attacks.) IIRC they couldn't build enough jet engines for any significant use until maybe 1-3 months earlier than they did start fielding. If Hitler hadn't forced the Me262 to be a "fighter-Bomber" instead of just a fighter, it would have been more effective for what Germany needed. OTOH, they were already starting to run out of trained pilots, iirc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 To "Lupus" Arado had a design for a jet propelled swept wing bomber the AR 234 "Blitz" prototypes of which were built. Scale it up to give it a better payload (and possibly increase the range) and you have a bomber that the allies can't catch' date=' nor shoot down with anything short of a Z Battery ![/quote'] iirc it was basically a fast medium bomber. I don't think they had enough engines to build mass numbers. also I doubt that even the fall of Moscow would have ended the war in Russia. Factories were already moved behind the Urals. The morale blow would have been massive, but I doubt it would have been enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupus Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 IIRC they couldn't build enough jet engines for any significant use until maybe 1-3 months earlier than they did start fielding. If Hitler hadn't forced the Me262 to be a "fighter-Bomber" instead of just a fighter, it would have been more effective for what Germany needed. OTOH, they were already starting to run out of trained pilots, iirc. Yeah, the Battle of Britain really did them in. Had they had some better fighters at that time, and concentrated on destroying the air force, they may have kept their pilots, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 Addendum to my earlier post. The Lippitsch jets seem to be DELTA not swept wing(although the pictures are only artists impressions) They are taken from the book "Last Talons Of The Eagle" by Gary Hyland and Anton Gill (Headline Pb 1998). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupus Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 Again to "Lupus". The Enigma machines were also secured by the British (especially the naval machine in a spectacular raid on a sinking U-Boat' date=' immortalised and wrongly attributed to the U S A in the film "U571") and others, but of course later in the war. As you say what if the Allies DON'T break the German codes and the Germans are able to understand the Allied codes AND the language of the Navajo "Windtalkers" that the U S A used as radio operators, without the Allies knowing about it ?[/quote'] *facepalms* I hadn't thought of the U-boat machine. On the other hand, wasn't that the capture of the newer, 4-rotor Enigma machine? I do believe there was an earlier breakthrough... but maybe I'm just mixing up fiction and real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 To "Gewing" Yes, you are right. Not enough engines, nor enough fuel. But aren't we playing "what if ?" here ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 To "Lupus" Yes I believe that you are right. The Kriegsmarine used a different machine from the other German armed forces and it took longer to break their codes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starblaze Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 Just gotta toss this out here. If it ever comes out of DVD or VHS or if Cartoon Network ever shows it again you might want to check out the "Savage Time". It is a Justice League movie where Vandal Savage deposes Hitler and takes over, enabling the Germans to win WWII. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 If they had cut production of the Me 109 and boosted the FW 190... Yeah' date=' the Battle of Britain really did them in. Had they had some better fighters at that time, and concentrated on destroying the air force, they may have kept their pilots, too. [/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 *facepalms* I hadn't thought of the U-boat machine. On the other hand, wasn't that the capture of the newer, 4-rotor Enigma machine? I do believe there was an earlier breakthrough... but maybe I'm just mixing up fiction and real life. I thnk the Poles brought the Brits one of the earlier 3 rotor enigma machines, which blew the German codes right out of the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 To "Starblaze" I have seen that episode of Animated Justice League. It is fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 Oh yes and while we are out with the pixies let's not forget Bulwyer-Lytton's "Vril" and the various "hollow earth" theories that some of the Nazis went in for ! Unfortunately Shaver's "Deros" are post world war II but hey, who's to say the Nazis didn't find out about them earlier ! Then there are the various methods that were used in Germany to predict the future, such as pouring hot lead into water (said to have been used by Hitler himself !). What if they, or the astrologers that were popular with various high ranking nazis, had been accurately been able to predict the future, on both grand and micro scales ? It has even been suggested that "The Holocaust", the murder of millions of Jews, gypsys, homosexuals and others by the nazis was some sort of Black Magic ritual ! What if that was right and the Nazis gained supernatural power thereby ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 I thnk the Poles brought the Brits one of the earlier 3 rotor enigma machines' date=' which blew the German codes right out of the water.[/quote'] I remember something about that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 And is in the perfect position to host a panzer army waiting to sweep down on the central US. At risk of stirring up things better left unstirred, suppose Quebec decided that it had a better chance of autonomy without it's anglophile neighbors and entered into a treaty of some kind with the Nazi's (perhaps even negotiated in Vichy)? The Quebec government would then have a free hand to deal with the native peoples as they saw fit, as well as ejecting any anglophile undesirables. True, they'd have German as a second language, but better than English as a first, perhaps. The Nazi's would then have a political foothold, and a good reason to start their invasion from the North, to move troops and supplies into Quebec. If Canada were forced to submit, and the seat of government moved to Montreal, that would give the German Navy friendly (or at least, non-hostile) ports all around the arctic circle, and an additional production/logistics/supply capability. This would put increased pressure on Russia, preventing them from massing quite as many troops on Germany's eastern front. Okay, probably not realistic, but it's definitely imagineable. That's what we're after, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 The Nazi's would then have a political foothold, and a good reason to start their invasion from the North, to move troops and supplies into Quebec. If Canada were forced to submit, and the seat of government moved to Montreal, that would give the German Navy friendly (or at least, non-hostile) ports all around the arctic circle, and an additional production/logistics/supply capability. This would put increased pressure on Russia, preventing them from massing quite as many troops on Germany's eastern front. This would only work if Germany had naval superiority. At that point Quebec would be pretty well irrelevant. In any case, this is still an example of non-superpowered thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 The German navy couldn't have had PARITY until 1945 by there own estimates, provided that the Germans gave them priority over the Luftwaffe AND the British and others didn't launch their own building programme and there was no war ! Once the war started any chance of getting naval parity with Britain was lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 In any case' date=' this is still an example of non-superpowered thinking.[/quote'] Yes, and since this is a Champions forum and RL mentioned that he was sending his group, I think we're allowed to throw in supers to help him out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 This would only work if Germany had naval superiority. At that point Quebec would be pretty well irrelevant. In any case, this is still an example of non-superpowered thinking. However unlikely this scenario, it could be wedded into a super mode by Quebec being a staging base for Nazi supers. And the Quebecois could be mind-controlled or mind-encouraged to join the Nazis against the English/Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Logue Posted January 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 Well, I've started the adventure. I'm going with the America-joined-the-Axis-instead-of-Japan-because-Hueylong-made-fascists-out-of-us context. I very much appreciate all the suggestions you all have given. And I'm hoping they keep coming! In a nutshell, the two PC's go to the alternate universe via a quasi-Siege Perilous-type deal. There, they find themselves in the bodies of their alternates. The one player finds himself drunken private eye with no powers. The other, an alien come to Earth, finds himself captive in a cell somewhere with his foci armbands gone. The first player steps over to the window to look out on the city street and wonder what's happening. He's sees a horrifying American flag on a flagpole across the street.... And that's where I ended the session for the night. There was, of course, quite a bit of build up to that point. The primary focus of this scenario is to divulge to the first player some of his mysterious and unknown origin. In brief, an alien scientist gave him an "extreme makeover" to combat evil occult (former Nazi) forces. During this adventure, he will learn of an equal project on the alternate world. Then he can begin putting things together. Meanwhile, here's the flag of the evil alternate earth America. As the first PC looked out the window, I showed him the graphic I made. (And I sincerely hope no one is offended by this... it is, after all, merely a hand out for my players.) Richard edit... Wow... LoL.. the picture is a lot bigger than I thought it would be. If anyone thinks its inappropriate, just let me know. I'm willing to remove it... in fact, I'm going to go ahead and remove it. If anyone wants to see it, send me a tell and I'll e-mail it to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 Cool, let us know how it works out. I'll PM you for the pic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 In a nutshell' date=' the two PC's go to the alternate universe via a quasi-Siege Perilous-type deal. There, they find themselves in the bodies of their alternates. The one player finds himself drunken private eye with no powers. The other, an alien come to Earth, finds himself captive in a cell somewhere with his foci armbands gone.[/quote'] I have a question here. Is this alternate America a stable one, or are there revolts going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Logue Posted January 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 I am imagine it as being stable. World War 2 is 60 years gone by. The Axis (Germany, America, and Italy) won, so there're no forced occupation. America becoming a facist state was done so "legally" and during the tough times of the Depression. Much like how Germany became a facist state, really. Granted, there are many groups who do not like the way of life offered by the current regime. And there are other groups actively persecuted in more or less subtle ways. But for the large majority of the nation, life is a matter of dealing with the bureacracy and making sure you go unnoticed by Big Brother. The main source of unrest is found in occupied England and France. Rumor is there's some kind of resistance group or haven for dissidents in the Urals. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Logue Posted January 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005 For anyone who wants to see the flag design I came up with for this scenario, just click the link below. If swastikas upset you, do not click the link below. Again, its just part of the scenario I'm putting my players through. I have in no way, shape, or form an affinity for anything the Nazi's stood for. Nor do I have any admiration for the neo-Nazi idiots running around throwing their hand out for some nutty jackass (Hitler) who's hatreds helped turned the world upside down over 6 decades ago. And thanks to Zornwil who offered to put my graphic on his website. http://www.realschluss.org/misc_hosted_pics/Nazi_Amerika_flag.jpg Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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