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Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005


Richard Logue

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

We are a group dedicated to the idea that flying men in underwear are the natural foes of Evil. We can consider a fair number of things.

"We're a team. We're united against the forces of...er...ah..."

 

"Pig-headedness?"

 

"I was gonna say evil."

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

I guess what I was trying to say earlier was that I find the basic premise of this thread a bit too far-fetched even for "What If?" consideration.

 

In a SUPERS alternate history?

 

For all we know, it worked because Hitler's cabal of wizards worked with Nazi technicians to create a dimensional portal that essentially multiplied the quantities of personnel throught the fascist nations by 100 fold.

 

THAT would help, ja?

 

Of course, back in the (alternate) present, no one knows this, so it just seems as though they were amazingly successful....

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

New York City and Boston were invasion points into the country in 1944. Boston took the brunt of it and received the world's first atomic weapon. Today' date=' it is still a ruined area that is off-limits to the general populace and is known as No-Man's Land. NYC fared better because it was attacked by conventional weapons and forces. But much of lower Manhattan was devastated in the battle, and the Manhattan Wall, erected early after the war, has since been a physical, if not psychological, barrier to its restoration. It has become a large ghetto for those the government persecutes.[/quote'] Capturing these ports intact would be more prudent than blowing them up. If you want to invade America, I don't think you would nuke Boston, or invade from there.

 

What you want is Washington, and to do that, invade either Virginia, or North Carolina, then move north. You can render Boston and New York ineffective with your submarines. Plus, with the strong Klan presence, not just in the South but in the midwest and elsewhere, the proper propaganda might garner American recruits to your Wermarch. Something about re-establishing the Confederacy might be helpful as well, helping "the south rise again"

 

After taking the south, you can move north through New England, and not have to destroy the valuable real estate in Boston. If you really want to nuke Boston, please, be my guest. But I do think it would be a waste.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

In a SUPERS alternate history?

 

For all we know, it worked because Hitler's cabal of wizards worked with Nazi technicians to create a dimensional portal that essentially multiplied the quantities of personnel throught the fascist nations by 100 fold.

 

The Atlanteans helped too. Not to mention that lost Roman city that was discovered in the 1930s. Italy would have been in real trouble without them.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Consider...

 

Let's say the German-Japanese Axis won World War 2 (however you want to rationalize a possible victory). In the aftermath, they split America up. West of the Mississippi is occupied by Japanese Imperial forces, east of the river lies the German occupation. Now, advance that to the present day, 60 years later.

Okay, I'll shoot for this, but I'll have to adjust it a bit and do a "history change," to make the mindset work for me.

 

 

  1. Germany does not invade Russia in Operation Barbarosa
  2. Japan does not attack Pearl Harbor, but does end diplomatic relations with the U.S.
  3. Albert Einstein doesn't make it out of Europe alive.
  4. After Germany conquers all of mainland Europe, true preparation for Operation Sea Lion begins. Not only is a proper naval surface fleet constructed, but Germany uses airborne troops again.
  5. Germany takes and holds North Africa.
  6. Japan conquers all of Asia, except for Russia.
  7. Either A: Germany & Japan leave Russia as is, or B, they both unite to attack and Russia (but not when winter is approaching). :)
  8. Germany takes England, installs a puppet government or a Neville Chamberlain type friendly gov't.
  9. Your choice of whether Germany & Japan attack Canada or Canada surrenders, etc.
  10. With the Amerika class battleships ready in 1946, Germany attacks the U.S. Japan attacks U.S. territories in the Pacific, including Pearl Harbor.
  11. Japan now controls Asia (save Russia, maybe) and all Pacific islands. It sets its sight on the Australian continent.
  12. Germany (with possible help from Mexico - see Zimmerman telegram suggestion) attacks the U.S.
  13. Nazi sympathizers within rise up against the U.S. and join the Germans. A famous politician capitulates/joins and his name is synonymous with Quisling.

 

Okay, having stated that much, I would think Germany would be over all of America (or Amerika) and the Japanese would not. FYI, the US had the 17th-19th ranked military (depending on source) prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. The U.S. would have been "conquered" prior to the new industrial revolution.

 

What's life like in America in 2005?

I think it would maintain a very agricultural feel. There would probably be either no Jews, or no publicly known Jews. All non-Aryans would be 2nd class citizens, if allowed to stay/live. Probably no Catholics or blacks, Hitler had over 2 million of them killed. Also, American Indians would probably be executed or shipped to Canada.

 

Hitler did actually see America as his biggest obstical and his final destination since it was a self-supporting country. If Hitler & Hirohito planned to take over the entire world, then you have to decide upon South America and the Middle East. If they are satisfied, then chances are technology advances didn't spring out. The U.S. could very well be a 2nd world, mostly undeveloped nation, with German Europe the industrial might. However, Nazi Germany did have hundreds of millions of dollars equivalent in gold that "neutral" Switzerland was laundering for them. Some of this could be applied to modernizing the U.S, while the rest went to rebuilding German Europe.

 

Finally, after 60 years, the nation could be looking either one way or another, depending on how you want it to go. The U.S. could be a pure or near-pure Aryan society, a near utopia, with the occassional supervillain, or it could be as oppressive as some Middle Eastern countries and the Civil Rights Movement is starting to take place (though, with different candidates). You could have the U.S. self sufficient, or just self-suffiicent in Aryan areas, with the 2nd class citizens living in a 3rd world country conditions.

 

Thanks for the brainstorming.

No problem. :thumbup: I hope this helps.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

I think it would maintain a very agricultural feel. There would probably be either no Jews, or no publicly known Jews. All non-Aryans would be 2nd class citizens, if allowed to stay/live. Probably no Catholics or blacks, Hitler had over 2 million of them killed. Also, American Indians would probably be executed or shipped to Canada.

 

This last one could be argued. I've seen references to Nazi propaganda aimed at American Indians calling them Aryan (or "carriers of Aryan culture"). What I haven't seen is how much of that was the propaganda teams trying to pull a divide and conquer and how much some Nazi actually believed.

 

And were the Catholics and blacks killed because they were Catholic or black, or for some other reason? I know Hitler was trying to keep the Pope on his side (or at least not actively on the other side).

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

It might be a dramatic possibility for the PCs to come in just as the wheels are coming off. It would be easy to imagine that by 2005 both the Third Reich and Japanese Empire would be overextended militarily and collapsing economically. (Not that you’d know that if you believed the propaganda, which nobody does anymore, although no one would be crazy enough to admit that in public.) They’ve stripped Europe and Asia bare, and their armies are stretched too thin to do the same to Africa and South America. That just leaves their American occupied territories to squeeze, and they’re starting to squeeze hard. Life was OK for a while (if your ancestry passed muster), but now it’s getting much worse. The Resistance is getting new recruits for the first time in decades. Maybe things are one dramatic event away from the beginnings of a revolution…

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

This last one could be argued. I've seen references to Nazi propaganda aimed at American Indians calling them Aryan (or "carriers of Aryan culture"). What I haven't seen is how much of that was the propaganda teams trying to pull a divide and conquer and how much some Nazi actually believed.

Well, in his unpublished 'sequel' to Mein Kampf, Hitler points out that he approved of America's historical attitude towards the Indians, about putting them on reservations and killing those that didn't comply. I don't recall off-hand if he thought the U.S. went far enough. This sequel (hidden under the title of Mein Kampf - unsure of why Hitler didn't want it published; perhaps he thought it unnecessary) also outlines Hitler's plan for attacking the U.S. and the reasons why.

 

 

And were the Catholics and blacks killed because they were Catholic or black' date=' or for some other reason? I know Hitler was trying to keep the Pope on his side (or at least not actively on the other side).[/quote']

From The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by William L. Shirer (pages 324-5):

 

Scarcely four months later, on July 20, [1933,] the Nazi government concluded a concordat with the Vatican in which it guaranteed the freedom of the Catholic religion and the right of the Church "to regulate her own affairs." The agreement, signed on behalf of Germany by Papen and of the Holy See by the then Papal Secretary of State, Monsignor Pacelli, later Pope Pius XII, was hardly put to paper before it was being broken by the Nazi government. But coming as it did at a moment when the first excesses of the new regime in Germany had provoked world-wide revulsion, the concordat undoubtedly lent the Hitler government much badly needed prestige*

 

On July 25, five days after the ratification of the concordat, the German government promulgated a sterilization law, which particularly offended the Catholic Church. Five days later, the first steps were taken to dissolve the Catholic Youth League. During the next years thousands of Catholic Youth priests, nuns and lay leaders were arrested, many of them on trumped-up charges of "immorality" or of "smuggling foreign currency." Erich Klausener, leader of Catholic Action, was, as we have seen, murdered in the June 30, 1934, purge. Scores of Catholic publications were suppressed, and even the sanctity of the confessional was violated by Gestapo agents. By the spring of 1937 the Catholic hierarchy in Germany, which, like most of the Protestant clergy, had at first tried to co-operate with the new regime, was thoroughly disillusioned. On March 14, 1937, Pope Pius XI issued an encyclical, "Mit Brennender Sorge" (With Burning Sorrow), charging the Nazi government with "evasion" and "violation" of the concordat and accusing it of sowing "the tares of suspicion, discord, hatred, calumny, of secret and open fundamental hostility to Christ and His Church." On "the horizon of Germany" the Pope saw "the threatening storm clouds of destructive religious wars... which have no other aim than... of extermination."

 

*In an allocution to the Sacred College on June 2, 1945, Pope Pius XII defended the concordat which he had signed but described National Socialism, as he later came to know it, as "the arrogant apostasy from Jesus Christ, the denial of His doctrine and of His work of redemption, the cult of violence, the idolatry of race and blood, the overthrow of human liberty and dignity."

The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich is a very good book and details a lot of the political machine of Nazi Germany, as well as the life of Adolf Hitler. Shirer not only lived through this time, but as a journalist reported on many of Hitler's activities; he was even present when France surrendered officially to Germany. Shirer (and his office) had access to 485 tons of documents and if you're willing to read through a book of nearly 1500 pages, I highly recommend this one.

 

As for blacks, from Dirty Little Secrets About Black History, Its Heroes, and Other Troublemakers, by Claud Anderson, Ed.D. (page 211):

 

As far back as World War I, many blacks had been recruited into the German army from its African colonies. Others had later migrated to Germany. Blacks in North Africa and the German colonies were also killed and forced into labor camps to produce war materials and supplies.

 

Nazi Germans hated and perceived blacks to be an inferior race of people. Blacks were arrested, persecuted, placed in German concentration camps and executed prior to and during World War II.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

I've been considering everyone's ideas all day long. One thing that kept popping up in my mind as a good alternative is Zornwil's suggestion about Huey Long becoming President instead of FDR. And that eventually results in a facist America. I think I'd like to explore that further.

 

It could possibly be a bit more creepy for the scenario I have in mind if it were America (and Italy) what became Germany's Axis ally instead of Japan. And then postulate what America and New York City would be like in 2005.

 

Would it still be the same sort of things you've all been suggesting, or much different again?

 

Richard

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Probably no Catholics or blacks' date=' Hitler had over 2 million of them killed. [/quote']

 

Hitler had no particular problem with Catholics, as long as they didn't oppose him. Millions of Germans and Austrians were, of course, Catholics.

 

Italy, Spain, and Croatia were all more or less voluntarily allied to him, and all had very strong Catholic elements in their respective fascist movements.

 

For that matter, various Islamic communities in the Balkans allied themselves to the Nazis, and contributed contingents to the Waffen SS.

 

There is little reason to believe that the Nazis would betray their allies without any good reason. The Nazis generally tended to be pragmatists and opportunists rather than ideologues.

 

Of course, that doesn't apply in a comic book world.

 

My personal favourite published "Nazi-world" is still the old DC Earth-X, introduced during one of the JLA/JSA crossovers. The Earth-2 Superman got to punch a Hitler-robot in the face!

 

The "Golden Age" limited series from DC has an "invasion from within" situation that you might be able to borrow stuff from. It's also a rockin' good read.

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For the Nazi Uber Allies world (everybody's a happy Nazi), I'd be willing to bet that any PC showing up there will immediately begin looking for the resistance -- there is always a resistance movment, right?

 

It should be in Argentina.

 

American (and other Allied) government officials escaped the Nazi conquest and purge, and found refuge in Argentina. Juan Peron had gotten nervous that maybe his Nazi friends weren't as friendly as he had thought, so he offered refuge to the best of the Allied nations.

 

The rest of the world, of course, despises the outlawed Allies hiding under assumed names. Patriotic Nazis try to identify infamous Allied war criminals (Eisenhower?).

 

*shudder* That alternate timeline really is creepy.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

I've been considering everyone's ideas all day long. One thing that kept popping up in my mind as a good alternative is Zornwil's suggestion about Huey Long becoming President instead of FDR. And that eventually results in a facist America. I think I'd like to explore that further.

I think that sounds feasible.

 

It could possibly be a bit more creepy for the scenario I have in mind if it were America (and Italy) what became Germany's Axis ally instead of Japan. And then postulate what America and New York City would be like in 2005.

I don't think an alliance with America would necessarily end a pact with Japan. With very few exceptions (such as a naval battle outside of Madagasgar) Germany & Japan didn't really work together in combat. The adding of another ally could strengthen the Axis Powers if the US went for a greater technical edge, or at least remove the gravity of threat the Allies presented.

 

Would it still be the same sort of things you've all been suggesting' date=' or much different again?[/quote']

If in your scenario, the US followed the German doctrine of blaming the Jews, then you'd have to decide if the Jews were exported out of the U.S. or sent to concentration camps. If your US followed this, then New York could be VERY different. You might also want to decide if the "Give my your tired, weak and poor" motto was changed to something else.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Hitler had no particular problem with Catholics' date=' as long as they didn't oppose him. Millions of Germans and Austrians were, of course, Catholics.[/quote']

Um, yeah. I again reference "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."

 

There is little reason to believe that the Nazis would betray their allies without any good reason. The Nazis generally tended to be pragmatists and opportunists rather than ideologues.

:think: Aside that, besides Japan and Italy, Germany helped no one. Every other "alliance" was broken. I'm sure Stalin and Russia would easily argue against you. Russia didn't lose 12 million to friendly fire.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

I agree with Champsguy. We would not see a German occupation of America, even if they'd managed to get the Atomic bomb first (one way that they could have won). There were American Nazis and Nazi sympathisers before and in the early stages of the war, including Lindburgh, Joe Kenedy, and other major political figures. What wwe'd be far more likely to see would be an authoritarian American government under American rule. There's a possibility that America's Jews would have been shipped off to internment or extermnation camps by the American government, along with (less likely) American Blacks and Asians. At the least I'd expect to see non-White Americans disenfranchised and (if posible) deported in such a setting.

 

However, it's your setting; do as you like. :)

 

Lindburgh was not the sympathizer some have made him out to be. He believed that the Luftwaffe was a very powerful airforce and didn't want the U.S. to get involved in the War in Europe. He immediatedly signed up to be civilian pilot and did shoot down enemy planes.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Hitler had no particular problem with Catholics, as long as they didn't oppose him. Millions of Germans and Austrians were, of course, Catholics.

 

Italy, Spain, and Croatia were all more or less voluntarily allied to him, and all had very strong Catholic elements in their respective fascist movements.

I had something far snarkier to post in reply, but instead I'll urge a reading of "The Rise and Fall of Third Reich." by Will Shirer. The one thing I can say is that from personal experience, I'm absolutely positive that's not correct.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Lindburgh was not the sympathizer some have made him out to be. He believed that the Luftwaffe was a very powerful airforce and didn't want the U.S. to get involved in the War in Europe. He immediatedly signed up to be civilian pilot and did shoot down enemy planes.

Well...I will say that once we went to war he did sign right up.

 

But...from: http://libraryautomation.com/nymas/americafirst.html

 

Charles Lindbergh was among the most extreme AFC spokesmen.[37] He also introduced a troubling new theme into the America First campaign. It was support for Germany. Most AFC supporters opposed war. Many had criticized Britain and France simply to balance the general American dislike of the Nazis. To justify their position, they had noisily opposed British imperialism. Some were also anti-English, but the England they hated was largely the City of London’s financial establishment. Many America Firsters, like most Americans, still wanted Britain to win the war, even if they didn’t want to do anything to help.[38] Very few AFC members discounted the importance of democracy and personal freedom. Lindbergh, with what one critic called an “Olympian contempt for all democratic processes,†did.[39] Despite formulaic protestations about its “excesses,†he found much to admire in the new German state. He also shared many of its leaders’ racial beliefs. Lindbergh was not against war. He simply opposed war with Germany.

 

Plus, he pretty much single handedly killed US involvement in Supersonic passenger travel saying "Man wasn't meant to fly that fast" to the people funding such things. Heck, throw in his 20 odd year affair too while we're at it.

 

I give him props for his flight, but as a person I think he was pretty much of a tool.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Well...I will say that once we went to war he did sign right up.

 

But...from: http://libraryautomation.com/nymas/americafirst.html

 

 

 

Plus, he pretty much single handedly killed US involvement in Supersonic passenger travel saying "Man wasn't meant to fly that fast" to the people funding such things. Heck, throw in his 20 odd year affair too while we're at it.

 

I give him props for his flight, but as a person I think he was pretty much of a tool.

 

Sorry, I stand corrected.

Too bad about his kid though.....

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

I've been considering everyone's ideas all day long. One thing that kept popping up in my mind as a good alternative is Zornwil's suggestion about Huey Long becoming President instead of FDR. And that eventually results in a facist America. I think I'd like to explore that further.

 

It could possibly be a bit more creepy for the scenario I have in mind if it were America (and Italy) what became Germany's Axis ally instead of Japan. And then postulate what America and New York City would be like in 2005.

 

Would it still be the same sort of things you've all been suggesting, or much different again?

 

Richard

Thanks. I do hasten to add that while I mused on this before I knew others did, actually many other people have speculated as to this. In fact I just checked and, yup, this particular scenario is covered in Champions in 3-D, an older Champions product. I'm not sure what is appropriate to divulge from a no-longer-published book so I won't get deeper, but if you get a chance, you should check it out. If you have a store with good used/old RPG material, it's on pages 94-114, but only pages 94-102 actually cover America, the rest is scenario/plot material.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

I've been considering everyone's ideas all day long. One thing that kept popping up in my mind as a good alternative is Zornwil's suggestion about Huey Long becoming President instead of FDR. And that eventually results in a facist America. I think I'd like to explore that further.

 

It could possibly be a bit more creepy for the scenario I have in mind if it were America (and Italy) what became Germany's Axis ally instead of Japan. And then postulate what America and New York City would be like in 2005.

 

Would it still be the same sort of things you've all been suggesting, or much different again?

 

Richard

It would depend on the effectiveness of German propaganda post Kristalnacht. It has been said that if Hitler had died before November 10th, 1938, he would have been seen as a great hero, not only in Germany, but throughout the world, because of the turn around he instituted in Germany. Economically and militarily, Germany was devastated after WW1. But throughout the 30s Germany appeared to be doing very well. While part of this was propaganda, there were some real surprising gains made in both areas.

 

If you could avoid Kristalnacht, (which would make the Nazis less repugnant) the rest of the Nuremberg laws could be viewed as a model or an abberation. And some politicians might want to institute many of the same reforms to combat the Depression here in the US.

 

But you also have to prevent or delay Pearl Harbor. Perhaps a more appeasing government would avoid or delay the confrontation over Japan's desire for resources.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

In fact I just checked and' date=' yup, this particular scenario is covered in Champions in 3-D, an older Champions product. I'm not sure what is appropriate to divulge from a no-longer-published book so I won't get deeper, but if you get a chance, you should check it out.[/quote']

 

There's one up on eBay currently: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2548&item=5949779168&rd=1 . I'm not bidding, I already have it.

 

And now, back to the thread...

 

Both Kirby and Proditor are referring to "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" in the "Hitler vs Catholics" subthread. It's been several years since I read that, I may use my B&N gift card for a copy.

 

However, I think we may be using different definitions here. In the Shirer quote, he refers to Catholic priests being arrested on trumped-up charges -- in other words, just being Catholic wasn't sufficient grounds for arrest, the government needed something else. Whereas, just being Jewish was sufficient grounds for being shipped off to a camp. That's what I was trying (and obviously failing) to get at in my earlier post.

 

(Didn't one of the Nazi bigwigs have his baby christened in the Catholic church?)

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Yes, internally in Germany you needed something more then just being Catholic, but for the "Mongrel races" (Not my quote I assure you) it established a Heirarchy upon which to send one to the camps. The further you were from the "norm" (Gay, Gypsy, Jew, Catholic, Slavic) the more likely you were to be sent off. And If you were a catholic slav, well you got to fight for the Wehrmacht if they thought they could trust you and got a railcar ride if they didn't.

 

It's never as cut and dried as the numbers suggest, but it does tend to be overlooked that 2 million catholics made the final trip as well.

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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

There's one up on eBay currently: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2548&item=5949779168&rd=1 . I'm not bidding, I already have it.

 

And now, back to the thread...

 

Both Kirby and Proditor are referring to "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" in the "Hitler vs Catholics" subthread. It's been several years since I read that, I may use my B&N gift card for a copy.

 

However, I think we may be using different definitions here. In the Shirer quote, he refers to Catholic priests being arrested on trumped-up charges -- in other words, just being Catholic wasn't sufficient grounds for arrest, the government needed something else. Whereas, just being Jewish was sufficient grounds for being shipped off to a camp. That's what I was trying (and obviously failing) to get at in my earlier post.

 

(Didn't one of the Nazi bigwigs have his baby christened in the Catholic church?)

It's worth observing that the Nazis were much harsher to Polish Catholic priests and nuns than they were to German ones. They may have concluded that the German people would be unhappy at open persecution of Catholic Germans (Germany had a sizable Catholic minority) but would have no such qualms about Poles. Thousands of Polish priests and nuns died in concentration camps.
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Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

There's one up on eBay currently: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2548&item=5949779168&rd=1 . I'm not bidding, I already have it.

 

And now, back to the thread...

 

Both Kirby and Proditor are referring to "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" in the "Hitler vs Catholics" subthread. It's been several years since I read that, I may use my B&N gift card for a copy.

 

However, I think we may be using different definitions here. In the Shirer quote, he refers to Catholic priests being arrested on trumped-up charges -- in other words, just being Catholic wasn't sufficient grounds for arrest, the government needed something else. Whereas, just being Jewish was sufficient grounds for being shipped off to a camp. That's what I was trying (and obviously failing) to get at in my earlier post.

 

(Didn't one of the Nazi bigwigs have his baby christened in the Catholic church?)

I wonder how much it will go for? It's a good book, even older/used, I'd say it's worth at least $10 and probably more like $20-$30 depending upon one's available cash.

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