Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

True enough. I was assuming that the purification program would have extende to blacks and asians in Nazi America by then' date=' buiding on existing American tensions at the time, but that may not have been the course history would have taken. Very much story teller's call.[/quote']Since in this alternate history the Nazis split North America with the Japanese, I think it's unlikely they'd move to exterminate Asians in particular. My guess is that they'd simply enslave blacks and Slavs (Which in such a world would likely include me, since my grandmother was born in what was Poland in 1906.).

 

Of course, gypsies, homosexuals, and a number of other small groups might well be eradicated as well as Jews.

[Lord Beavis]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

My favorite part of these "what if" type scenarios, is how things we have in our world would be different.

 

Star Wars - a movie about the "heroic" Darth Vader and his stormtroopers fighting to get back the plans of the Life Star from the terrorist group who sadly think they are "rebels"

 

Raiders of the Lost Ark- a movie about an german american archaeologist sent to recover the Ark before the evil jews get their hands on it!! ( I apologize if anyone is offended by the jewish reference. I don't think anyone here has meant the reference other than in historical context)

 

That's just two......

 

And who are the famous people in America who have helped the Nazis, who was neutral, who fights against them, and who has been gotten rid of.

[OddHat]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Since in this alternate history the Nazis split North America with the Japanese, I think it's unlikely they'd move to exterminate Asians in particular. My guess is that they'd simply enslave blacks and Slavs (Which in such a world would likely include me, since my grandmother was born in what was Poland in 1906.).

 

Of course, gypsies, homosexuals, and a number of other small groups might well be eradicated as well as Jews.

 

I have a problem with the German-Japanese alliance holding, and with the idea of the Japanese anexing part of America. The Japanese were already overstretched just trying to hold on to China by 1941; from both an ideological and practical POV, I'd see them trying to hold everything from Hawaii to the coastal areas of China, and eventually leaving a puppet government in Beijing to act as a buffer against the German-controlled puppet government in Russia. Also, the Japanese at the time would not have objected ideologically to the extermination of non-Japanese Asians in America; the dehumanization of non-Japanese Asians was extreme in Japanese rhetoric and educational materials at the time.

 

Again and always, storyteller's option.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

I have a problem with the German-Japanese alliance holding, and with the idea of the Japanese anexing part of America. The Japanese were already overstretched just trying to hold on to China by 1941; from both an ideological and practical POV, I'd see them trying to hold everything from Hawaii to the coastal areas of China, and eventually leaving a puppet government in Beijing to act as a buffer against the German-controlled puppet government in Russia. Also, the Japanese at the time would not have objected ideologically to the extermination of non-Japanese Asians in America; the dehumanization of non-Japanese Asians was extreme in Japanese rhetoric and educational materials at the time.

 

Again and always, storyteller's option.

I agree with your assessment, but since the postulated scenario had the Japanese occupying the western US I tried to stay within that scenario's parameters.

 

Ironically, both the Nazis and Japanese were extremely racist and both considered the other inferior. A more realistic scenarion might have had them going to war in the Americas as the only point on the globe they actually had physical contact, perhaps in the 1970's.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

RE: The Japanese Half of this scenario. You might want to hit the bookstore and pick up Harry Turtledove's "Days of Infamy". He does a pretty good job of building an initially pro-Japanese WW2 scenario, and back-handedly does a good job of explaining why Japan would have a great deal of trouble holding onto anything much further east of Hawaii.

 

RE: The German Half of this scenario. The most common method of developing a pro-Nazi scenario is to have the assasination attempt against FDR work. That's a good place to start...

 

It's my opinion that for a Nazi-world scenario to work long term, there's a *different* person that needs to die in the late 30's or very early 40's -- Adolf Hitler. Many of the mistakes Germany made as the war went on can be fingered directly at him.

 

And it wouldn't hurt if you knocked off Mussolini (spelling?) too, or give him a more competent military commander. His miserable failure against Greece for example hamstrung the German advance into Russia.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

RE: The Japanese Half of this scenario. You might want to hit the bookstore and pick up Harry Turtledove's "Days of Infamy". He does a pretty good job of building an initially pro-Japanese WW2 scenario, and back-handedly does a good job of explaining why Japan would have a great deal of trouble holding onto anything much further east of Hawaii.

 

RE: The German Half of this scenario. The most common method of developing a pro-Nazi scenario is to have the assasination attempt against FDR work. That's a good place to start...

 

It's my opinion that for a Nazi-world scenario to work long term, there's a *different* person that needs to die in the late 30's or very early 40's -- Adolf Hitler. Many of the mistakes Germany made as the war went on can be fingered directly at him.

 

And it wouldn't hurt if you knocked off Mussolini (spelling?) too, or give him a more competent military commander. His miserable failure against Greece for example hamstrung the German advance into Russia.

While I do enjoy Harry Turtledove's historical what-if books, he's really not much of a historian and he for darn sure does not understand the military and military technology. My favorite gaffe was in Guns of the South, where Turtledove mistakenly assumes the most significant thing about modern firearms as compared to Civil War-era muskets is that they shoot faster. In point of fact the most important improvement over muskets is that modern jacketed bullets can shoot right through trees and thin stone walls; rendering trees useless as protection from bullets.

 

Likewise, the US crushed Japan with only 20% of our total war effort in WW2. There is no plausible scenario where Japan could actually defeat the United States or even hold us at bay for long. Yamamoto was well aware of this even as he planned the attack on Pearl Harbor. Even if we'd lost all our Pacific fleet carriers at Pearl Harbor we still would have easily won the war by 1946 even without the A-bomb. After Midway in 1942 the Japanese were on the strategic defensive for the rest of the war. In other words, it took us only 7 months after Pearl Harbor to go on the offensive. The only way they could have made us stop is to make our advances too costly in manpower, and since the Japanese Army had significantly inferior infantry weapons to America's that just wasn't going to happen.

[assault]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Ironically' date=' both the Nazis and Japanese were extremely racist and both considered the other inferior. A more realistic scenarion might have had them going to war in the Americas as the only point on the globe they actually had physical contact, perhaps in the 1970's.[/quote']

 

It would be likely that they would have contact along the border of China, Mongolia and the former Soviet Union.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

It would be likely that they would have contact along the border of China' date=' Mongolia and the former Soviet Union.[/quote']I discounted that front for two reasons:

 

1) The basic scenario set up an East-West division of America.

 

2) The distances involved in a Mongolia/China/Russia conflict between Germany and Japan are simply too huge. Neither would ever possess the manpower to conquer and garrison such huge territories. More likely is that they would set up puppet "buffer states" between themselves.

[OddHat]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

The distances involved in a Mongolia/China/Russia conflict between Germany and Japan are simply too huge. Neither would ever possess the manpower to conquer and garrison such huge territories. More likely is that they would set up puppet "buffer states" between themselves.

 

Agreed, and with your pos on the war in the pacific as well.

[Richard Logue]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

I really appreciate the ideas so far. (That means keep 'em coming.) Again, I’m not really trying to rationalize how this world came to be, but rather how it has been affected into 2005.

 

So far I've determined the following points. And of course I would enjoy your feedback on them.

 

In the Treaty of Washington, America is divided into East United States and West United States. I'll make the Rockies the dividing line (instead of the Mississippi).

 

The capital of West United States was established in the District of San Francisco. Puppet politicians are put in place by the Japanese to help them govern their new holdings under the veneer of remaining free. In East United States, the Nazis take a different approach and roll their propaganda machine. They help the American Nazi Party gain more power and soon they are elected to the Presidency. The two US's become the stomping grounds for tension between the two Axis powers and a Cold War ensues. Twice, open war has been averted, once in 1962 and again in 1989.

 

Technologically speaking, America develops a bit slower than the two superpowers, although WUSA enjoys a little more freedom in scientific quarters than EUSA. This is because Japan cannot spare the resources necessary to keep an iron hand on WUSA. On the other hand, the American Nazi Party in EUSA follows the ideals of the Fatherland closely. And although its not strictly a police state, Big Brother's eyes are everywhere and scientific research is closely monitored.

 

Elsewhere in the world, countries that fought the Axis fared much worse. The Soviet Union is a radioactive ruin. China as well. The Axis used these two regions to make examples to the rest of the world and to test new weapons. Britain is an occupied island where Nazi Germany enforces a police state. The seeds of resistance often begin here, but are quickly put down. France faces a similar fate, but to a much lesser degree.

 

With the prospects of what's happened in the other "Allied" nations, and with the propaganda machine continually telling Americans how fortunate they are, especially in EUSA, Americans have mostly accepted "the way things are." With the passing of 60 years, only the grandparents stridently talk about fomenting dissension.

 

New York City and Boston were invasion points into the country in 1944. Boston took the brunt of it and received the world's first atomic weapon. Today, it is still a ruined area that is off-limits to the general populace and is known as No-Man's Land. NYC fared better because it was attacked by conventional weapons and forces. But much of lower Manhattan was devastated in the battle, and the Manhattan Wall, erected early after the war, has since been a physical, if not psychological, barrier to its restoration. It has become a large ghetto for those the government persecutes.

 

As for supers, I like the idea that many of heroes in the “real world†would still be heroes in the sense that they are conformed, as much of the population is, and see the American Nazi regime as normal. And that the “real world†villains might in fact be the ones who would be fostering ideas of dissension. Heroes from the real world, i.e. my PC’s, would be in for a shock to discover that their own very patriotic Glory sports a swastika, and that their nemeses are the ones trying to start a resistance movement.

 

There would definitely be government controls in place and power registration acts have been in effect since the ‘40’s. Under a carefully cultivated and supported program, large robotic sentinels “defend†the people in the larger cities from “threats.†Of course, it’s a well-known secret that the agency in control of the robots is carefully “monitored†by the Gestapo.

 

Whacha think?

 

Richard

[Lightray]

IIRC, Hitler's long-term goals did include some form of attack/invasion of America -- but not within the generation that was conquering Europe for him.

 

From what I can recall (too far in the past for sources; sorry), Hitler planned to consolidate his hold on Europe, including Russia and England. Once the Americans had no foothold in Europe, Hitler would rebuild his forces -- now with all of Europe and Russia as the resources and industrial base to take on America.

 

Japan, AFAIK, never intended to conquer any of America; they wanted to be the dominant power in their portion of the Pacific. Australia, though, probably would have been on their list of goals to subjugate.

 

Were these scenarios to have come about (maybe Hitler was smarter, and made jet fighters rather than V-bombs and a few jet bombers, etc.), then there would have been no Baby Boom generation in America. Maybe within a generation England, France, Russia, etc. would have been subdued by the Nazis, and enough loyal (or conscript) troops available for the horrible task of invading America. Hitler, of course, would likely be dead by now (unless someone kept his brain alive in a jar ).

 

America would have been churning out war materiel in preparation -- unless Hitler could have gotten them to agree to "peace in our time". A complacent America would have been easier to invade - especially if they made the East Coast into something like Hitler's Fortress Europe.

 

Best scenario: the new Furher gets Japan to attack the West Coast, Mexico to invade via Texas, and the Nazis go for a beach landing around Virgina.

 

And then the next generation (the not-Baby Boomers) is a long, bloody period of saturation bombing, blitzkrieg, and guerilla warfare. Look to Korea and Vietnam for ideas.

 

By the present day, Nazis probably control the East Coast, Japan has some of the West Coast, maybe Mexico did some damage to Texas. There's probably resistance in the Midwest -- nominally the Nazis claim control, but insurgents still are active (think: new Wild West). Maybe the remnant of an American government is holed up in Colorado.

 

Concentration camps could have started up after the Nazis had a solid foothold in Amerika (say, what is now mid to late Baby Boom era). Probably the Nazis can use forced labor farming, although it would be problematical in the Midwest (far from the Nazi center of power, where sabotage is more likely).

 

Technology would have skewed to military applications: better guns, ammunition, jets, tanks, etc. No time to spend on consumer goods -- no TV dinners, no fast food, no computers, no Electronic Age. Media is primarily radio, movies, some TV, and is all propaganda "approved" by the Nazis. Severe rationing for non-Nazis; extreme corruption for Nazis (think: Communist Party in Russia).

[OddHat]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Do a happy Nazi World! The French love their new masters and having a true United Europe, the English love having a real (German) King again and being part of the wildly prosperous Greater German Prosperity Sphere (not to mention being free of the damn dirty non-whites and Jews), the American's love living under their American Nazi Government in their racially pure nation, and all of Asia is happy to be under the iron heel of the Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere! It's Springtime for Hitler and Germany! The Fascists were right! Everyone is filled with joy and love!

 

Except all of the hundreds of millions who were exterminated, but who really cares about them?

 

Now that should be a fun problem for your players.

[Lupus]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Britain: the most important detail here is DO NOT BOMB LONDON. Goering screwed up there - he had the RAF on the ropes, but let them recover while the Luftwaffer did the Blitz. Biggest mistake of his campaign - he was an air-power enthusiast, and a big believer in bombs winning wars by making populations surrender. The war in Britain could have swung around a lot faster had he actually annihilated the RAF properly.

 

I do like Proditor's timeline, especially the transports from Dunkirk getting wolfpacked (my god, man, you're harsh.)

 

As for Japan's strategy in the Pacific... the US bounced back from Pearl very quickly because the carriers were untouched. Had EVERYTHING been destroyed there, it would have taken a lot longer, and there wouldn't have been such a large force heading to defend it. In addition, if the US never broke JN-25, they wouldn't have known where the invasion was coming. They may have fallen for the diversion. Japan taking Midway puts them in a much better position. After there, and with Germany's successes, they may have been able to keep the US from attacking them until Germany developed the bomb (and possibly Japan, or maybe Germany shared it with them, knowing they still needed the extra manpower). Hey, it's an idea, right?

 

Anyway, to modern day: the US spirit may be crushed, or it may have been twisted. I could easily see a perpetual 1920s jazz aesthetic - the well-to-do partying all night. Keep the US spirit alive! Things like upward mobility, the self-made man, healthy competition - these things help, as long as you can turn them to your cause over a generation of propaganda. Fierce independence may be a problem, but not if you teach everyone that life is BETTER until the Nazis. That's it's not subjugation - you teach them that America CHOSE to have Germany take over at the top levels. (Maybe Germany held some puppet elections in the 50s, or something.) That way, the fierce independence works for Germany, not against it.

 

There'll definitely be resistance, though. Mostly from the underclasses, who are beginning to realise that they have no opportunity for true advancement, and are beginning to believe the rumours that the election in the 50s was rigged and that the Germans are, in fact, conquerers.

 

And, naturally, they take in refugees from the harsh regime in the Western US, and say 'Hey, we're better than the Japanese!' to anyone who complains about them.

 

Anyway, I just like that scenario. It's harsh, but I think it's fertile game material. Patriots vs 'The Government', after all.

 

Japan's definitely the tricky one. Their invasion was possibly delayed until the 50s or so... they nuked US troop movements to wipe out the military, then took beachheads, and busily decimated the population with biological warfare (which they were pioneers of). THEN they took over, perhaps, using fear and pressure. In the West, America's spirit was broken. Naturally, it can't be broken fully - there are still rebels, who unfortunately have to stay quiet, due to the policy of extreme retalliation. Mostly, they try to send people over to the 'benevolent' West US. More enlightened rebels try to send them overseas.

 

(And if anyone's upset at me saying the US could be twisted like that, you should see what I was planning for Australia in my own Naziworld timeline. Things like these are all about the dark side of things, I think. The Nazi Party was the dark side of Germany. So let's bring out the dark side of other nations, too.)

 

Anyway... that's the rest of my ideas (to add what I've posted before, and others' posts).

 

Hope you find it useful. Take it, ignore it, it's there.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Well, if the atrocities all happened that long ago and everyone around now is happy, there's not much of a problem left. It would just be weird and unsettling, but with no way to make things "right". No amount of righteous anger really justifies punching the crap out of a genocidal monster's grandson, just for being related to him.

 

EDIT: And by the way, it really irks me when I respond to a post without using the quote function, and someone else sneaks a post in between the one I'm responding to and my own. I gotta quit taking it for granted that I'll get it in there.

[Lupus]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Do a happy Nazi World! The French love their new masters and having a true United Europe, the English love having a real (German) King again and being part of the wildly prosperous Greater German Prosperity Sphere (not to mention being free of the damn dirty non-whites and Jews), the American's love living under their American Nazi Government in their racially pure nation, and all of Asia is happy to be under the iron heel of the Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere! It's Springtime for Hitler and Germany! The Fascists were right! Everyone is filled with joy and love!

 

Except all of the hundreds of millions who were exterminated, but who really cares about them?

 

Now that should be a fun problem for your players.

Yeah, that's more or less what I was aiming for. Everyone loves the Nazis! (after 50 years of propaganda telling them they do). They rock!

[Lupus]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Well' date=' if the atrocities all happened that long ago and everyone around now is happy, there's not much of a problem left. It would just be weird and unsettling, but with no way to make things "right". No amount of righteous anger really justifies punching the crap out of a genocidal monster's grandson, just for being related to him.[/quote']

Unless there IS still bad stuff going on, beneath the surface. If all the media is controlled by American Bund members (or perhaps some manner of secret society), no-one knows about it, all everyone gets is stories of how great life is with Germany as the 'Great Ally'.

[nexus]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Do a happy Nazi World! The French love their new masters and having a true United Europe, the English love having a real (German) King again and being part of the wildly prosperous Greater German Prosperity Sphere (not to mention being free of the damn dirty non-whites and Jews), the American's love living under their American Nazi Government in their racially pure nation, and all of Asia is happy to be under the iron heel of the Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere! It's Springtime for Hitler and Germany! The Fascists were right! Everyone is filled with joy and love!

 

Except all of the hundreds of millions who were exterminated, but who really cares about them?

 

Now that should be a fun problem for your players.

 

Somehow that is more horrific than other "Nazis Win" Scenarios I have read before.

[Lupus]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Somehow that is more horrific than other "Nazis Win" Scenarios I have read before.

And that's what I find appealing about it.

 

(Don't mind me, I'll be over here...)

[OddHat]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Somehow that is more horrific than other "Nazis Win" Scenarios I have read before.

 

Oh yes. It's much darker.

[Marketeer]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

The following scenario is simultaneously more and less plausible than the rest...

 

...the only real way to have a long-term, sustainable Nazi victory is to have the US not fight or crushed.

 

It's a lot easier to have them not fight.

 

Most of the atrocities weren't widely known until after the War. All it really takes to swing World War II the other way, in an authoritative fashion, would be to have America side with the Axis.

 

A whole bunch of scenarios could be constructed around how and why the US did so, but if you want to unsettle your players, have the US as an active collaborator that has achieved and maintained prosperity because of it.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Personally, I find the idea that the Nazis and Japanese have conquered America to be far-fetched. They just can't transport that many troops to the US without having a staging base somewhere.

 

More likely, I see a scenario along the lines of "It Can't Happen Here". A powerful populist governor replaces Truman as President after he fails to win the war. He begins gearing America up for a long-term war with the Axis. Little things like the Civil Rights Movement never come about. Living for decades through times of great rationing leads to a harsher, meaner mindset. You don't have the prosperity of the 50s to lead to television. America will need resources to stop the Axis, so Manifest Destiny reasserts itself, and Mexico, Canada, and much of South America become "protectorates" of the US.

 

60 years later, you've got an America in an on-again, off-again war against Germany and Japan, each having consolidated its holdings and forced the others into a stalemate. None is a particularly happy place to live, with the ideas of prosperity, liberty, and peace having long since been forgotten.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

While I do enjoy Harry Turtledove's historical what-if books' date=' he's really not much of a historian and he for darn sure does not understand the military and military technology...Likewise, the US crushed Japan with only 20% of our total war effort in WW2. There is no plausible scenario where Japan could actually defeat the United States or even hold us at bay for long.[/quote']

 

Treb, note the word "initially". He doesn't take the scenario beyond the spring of 1942. Also note that he does a good job of explaining why it wouldn't work.

 

Not that I'm defending the error in Guns of the South, mind.

[zornwil]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

Personally, I find the idea that the Nazis and Japanese have conquered America to be far-fetched. They just can't transport that many troops to the US without having a staging base somewhere.

 

More likely, I see a scenario along the lines of "It Can't Happen Here". A powerful populist governor replaces Truman as President after he fails to win the war. He begins gearing America up for a long-term war with the Axis. Little things like the Civil Rights Movement never come about. Living for decades through times of great rationing leads to a harsher, meaner mindset. You don't have the prosperity of the 50s to lead to television. America will need resources to stop the Axis, so Manifest Destiny reasserts itself, and Mexico, Canada, and much of South America become "protectorates" of the US.

 

60 years later, you've got an America in an on-again, off-again war against Germany and Japan, each having consolidated its holdings and forced the others into a stalemate. None is a particularly happy place to live, with the ideas of prosperity, liberty, and peace having long since been forgotten.

You touch on a suggestion I would have, and it's a semi-common one as to how fascism may have taken root in America. Huey Long was immensely popular but a demagogue. His fortunes in real life didn't work out so well, but without TOO much wrenching one can imagine an FDR not as successful in his first term; and in fact in real life FDR very much feared Long's rising star and Long had a direct influence on FDR getting more liberal/aggressive with his socioeconomic reforms.

 

So if instead of Long failing and FDR soaring into his historical place, we see FDR fail and Long win a bloody Democratic primary or perhaps even as a third party candidate, and instead, due to timing and such, Long is wildly successful as FDR was...we have a much more "national socialist" mentality of a state.

 

Now add in that in real life, there was a bill at the end of WW II to locate GIs into the job of the GOVERNMENT's choice!! This bill, IIRC, died in committee, but wasn't without considerable support (I think the committee vote was close in real life but I may be wrong, last time I looked into this - and I did verify at least all this basic info is real back then - was in High School). Consider Long as president, his socioeconomic programs very successful, civil rights stalled out even moreso than it did under FDR (not just "not time", but no sympathetic members in government or pseudo-goverment like FDR's wife), then GIs carefully placed into the jobs of America, their future acceptably controlled, and then consider the "Long plan for post-war prosperity" - as in fact the US only fought Japan and Germany meanwhile won in Europe, Russia suing for peace (just to give Nazism itself a future). And of course a war against just Japan wouldn't be so bad on America.

 

Germany meanwhile has serious ties to the (still mostly isolationist, after all, it sure did pay to stay out of Europe, didn't it!?) Long administration and the new "People's Party" Long in this alternative future created. Long's "People's Party" is a thinly veiled Nazi organization, and it fuses fascism with American populism. Hitler and Mussolini are "good leaders" and "good examples". As social change occurs in the wake of globalization, America simply fights it off, in fact putting more people rather than less in camps seems to work pretty well, and "those people" (whoever they are) tend to live in the corrupt inner cities - white flight is virtually endorsed and every inner city is its own sort of Warsaw Ghetto.

 

And so on, just some ideas, maybe some of this can be useful to mesh into the original idea or just can be used on its own...

[Kristopher]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

I guess what I was trying to say earlier was that I find the basic premise of this thread a bit too far-fetched even for "What If?" consideration.

[OddHat]

Re: Hypothetical Axis Amerika 2005

 

I guess what I was trying to say earlier was that I find the basic premise of this thread a bit too far-fetched even for "What If?" consideration.

 

We are a group dedicated to the idea that flying men in underwear are the natural foes of Evil. We can consider a fair number of things.