Grabbing multiple foes

[Blue]

I'm sans 5ER at the moment. Anyone see any problems with allowing grabs on multiple foes? (Assuming you have an action available fore each one)

 

1) Ogre is performing the traditional bank hold-up scenario. He seizes the scrawny manager (STR 10) in order to appropriately threaten him. For SFX sake he has him by the front of his shirt. A teller decides to use the opportunity to run by. Let's assume Ogre has another action available now and grabs the STR 10 girl by the back of the neck. Ogre has more than enough casual STR to hold the manager and the clerk. Is this reasonable to allow him to maintain two seperate grabs?

 

2) Octopod, a mutant 100 ft tall, STR 80, 9 armed squid (Told you he was a mutant) seizes both the team's flying blasters (who are STR 10 and 15). On his next action, the team Martial Artist is in range (STR 20). If Octopod makes the grab, would you allow the third grab due to the limbs? (I know the book says there's no real benefit to extra limbs).

[Jhamin]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

I would have no problem with either scenario.

 

And even though the book downplays the benifits of having lots of arms, I thing that if you paid points for it, the ability has to be good for something

[Old Man]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Not sure about the Ogre thing, but the Octopus guy sure.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

I see no problems with either of these scenarios. What you grab stays grabbed if it is fundamentally incapable of either harming you or escaping. The manager might as well be a toaster for all the threat he is capable of inflicting on the Ogre.

 

As to the Octopoid villian, go for it. Extra Limbs is cool beans!

 

Hawksmoor

[Max Faraday]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

I'd probably rule that a character can grab one target per arm (or other limb capable of grabbing) but that they can only use casual strength to maintain the grabs. I seem to recall that UMA had something to say about the number of limbs used in a grab but I don't think of the details at this point.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

I'd probably rule that a character can grab one target per arm (or other limb capable of grabbing) but that they can only use casual strength to maintain the grabs. I seem to recall that UMA had something to say about the number of limbs used in a grab but I don't think of the details at this point.

 

The rules for Grab specifically say you can grab multiple targets, one per limb, and don't say anything about having to use casual strength to do it. If you want to rule that way, fine, but the rules don't stipulate it. See 5ER p. 397 under Sweep.

 

Another thing - If you have more than one target in a Grab, you can only squeeze or throw one at a time unless you perform a Sweep. See 5ER p. 387 sidebar for details.

[Alibear]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

I seem to recall that you get -5 str penalty if you only grab with one arm.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

I seem to recall that you get -5 str penalty if you only grab with one arm.

 

Nothing in the rules about that. Of course, it might be an older rule that got scrapped in the 5E revision.

[Alibear]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Are you sure Mikey, did you loook in the UMA as well as FREd? It certainly could be a figment of my imagination, or as you say an old pre-5th ed rule.

[Bluefire]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

I like both situations... run with it.

 

As to the grabbing with one hand: fred pg.254 col2 para6.

 

-Jason

[Blackjack]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Are you sure Mikey' date=' did you loook in the UMA as well as FREd? It certainly could be a figment of my imagination, or as you say an old pre-5th ed rule.[/quote']

 

It isn't a figment of your imagination. UMA pg. 146.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

It isn't a figment of your imagination. UMA pg. 146.

 

Don't have that one. Thanks for the reference, but it is a bit annoying for the "consolidated" 5E rules not to contain all the rules...

[Alibear]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Don't have that one. Thanks for the reference' date=' but it is a bit annoying for the "consolidated" 5E rules not to contain all the rules...[/quote']

 

As to the grabbing with one hand: fred pg.254 col2 para6.

-Jason

 

Jason already gave you a page reference.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Jason already gave you a page reference.

 

Yep. Here's p. 254, column 2, para 6, in its entirety:

 

"MENTAL DAMAGE SHIELD

"Characters can also use Damage Shield to create a Mental Damage Shield. In this case, a character buys an Ego Attack (or other Mental Power) with the Damage Shield Advantage (this removes the Range from the Power, as usual). If someone hits the character with a Mental Power, the attacker suffers the damage from the Shield; he continues to suffer damage from the Shield for every one of the character's Phases during which he maintains mental contact with the character. The Shield's effect automatically hits the attacker; all the character has to do is roll the damage from the Shield."

 

Now, if someone wants to provide a 5ER reference that actually has something to do with Grabs, go crazy.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Using one arm -5 STR. What of Octopod though? Octopod can use two arms on each character with no problem and still have one left.

 

Perhaps the rule should read: If you don't use all your arms then you are at -5 effective strength.

 

The other thing is this; it does not matter in the examples given so much, but if you grab two people of equal strength, I would add +5 to their effective strength for holding on to them, four would be +10 and so on. Two characters of equal strength can effectively add 5 to strength for lifting purposes and so it seems logical to allow the add for grabbing multiple foes (for example when I'm having to fight off my kids, I can use casual strength to hold one, but if the other joins in, I'm going to need to use it all!)

 

This also means that Mega-Octopoid (who has 100 limbs!) can't just go and grab 100 people an only suffer an effective -5 to strength.

 

Other than that I'd have no problem with either grabbing scenario. Don't forget grab-bys as well. Very useful addition to 5th ed....

 

QUESTION: If you are holding on to someone using casual strength, do you still suffer DCV penalties? Take, for example, the mega-octopoid, who is about 50 feet tall. If he grabs a normal with one limb, holding with casual strength, is this really going to cause any penalty to his DCV (OK, 50 feet tall, not going to have a good DCV anyway, but you know what I mean). The answer may be in the book, but I don't have it with me at present...

[SirViss]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Yep. Here's p. 254, column 2, para 6, in its entirety:

*

*

*

Now, if someone wants to provide a 5ER reference that actually has something to do with Grabs, go crazy.

 

Well, it's not that hard to find. 5ER, p.387, 2nd column. The 2nd paragraph of "The Effects Of Grab".

 

There you go...

[Max Faraday]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Yep. Here's p. 254, column 2, para 6, in its entirety:

 

*snip*

 

Now, if someone wants to provide a 5ER reference that actually has something to do with Grabs, go crazy.

 

I think that was a reference in 5th Ed., not 5ER.

 

As to the grabbing with one hand: fred pg.254 col2 para6.

-Jason

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Well, it's not that hard to find. 5ER, p.387, 2nd column. The 2nd paragraph of "The Effects Of Grab".

 

There you go...

 

Yep, you're right. My bad. Found it this morning, but wasn't near a computer at the time. One of those "look right at it without seeing it" things; I had just read through that section in detail because of a character I'm planning on playing soon who has multiple limbs (making the Sweep Grab an attractive concept). And I still missed it. Apologies to any who were offended by my attitude.

 

Brings up a couple of interesting questions, though. First, I would assume that, if you're holding one person in each limb, you would be at -5 STR to hold each one? If not, why not? The -5 reflects that you can't "wrap up" the Grabee as well with one limb as with two, right?

 

Second, what if you're Doc Ock and you grab with 3 or 4 limbs? Do you get a +5 STR bonus for each limb beyond the first 2, just for the purpose of maintaining the Grab (not for squeezing or throwing)? If you add a third or fourth limb to the Grab, wouldn't that make it harder to break out?

 

This is turning out to be interesting.... :-)

[Rapier]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

I seem to recall that you get -5 str penalty if you only grab with one arm.

Actually, there were clarifications in Ultimate Brick (possibly in 5ER), that clarified that -5 STR for one arm was in reference to a normal 10 STR individual. One arm is actually half strength.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Actually' date=' there were clarifications in Ultimate Brick (possibly in 5ER), that clarified that -5 STR for one arm was in reference to a normal 10 STR individual. One arm is actually half strength.[/quote']

 

The reference on p. 387 (thank you for that) of 5ER specifically says -5 STR, not half strength. Maybe we should take this over to the rules forum and get a clarification from Steve?

[Rapier]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

The reference on p. 387 (thank you for that) of 5ER specifically says -5 STR' date=' not half strength. Maybe we should take this over to the rules forum and get a clarification from Steve?[/quote']Ultimate Brick pg 9, in the box at the top right corner. First entry.

 

"-5 STR (ie half lifting capacity)"

 

As I've said before, this also makes a lot more sense.

 

With a simple -5 STR, one handed Grond can lift 95 STR with left arm and 95 STR with right arm (and thanks to STR rules only spend END once). When lifting with both arms he could only lift 100 STR worth? Doesn't make a lot of sense. How could he possibly lift almost twice as much by using each hand separately?

 

It also seems rather lopsided for Granny Jones with her 5 STR to be -5 with 1 hand (a 100% reduction) while Grond is at 95%.

[SirViss]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Ultimate Brick pg 9, in the box at the top right corner. First entry.

 

"-5 STR (ie half lifting capacity)"

 

Well, that's just it, -5 STR means that you can only lift ½ of what you can with full STR.

ex.:

- If you have 60 STR you can lift 100 tons.

- If you have 55 STR you can lift 50 tons.

 

So, I think that the -5 STR applies, no matter what STR the character starts with.

 

Edit: Hey, no fair! Editing while I'm replying...

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Well, that's just it, -5 STR means that you can only lift ½ of what you can with full STR.

ex.:

- If you have 60 STR you can lift 100 tons.

- If you have 55 STR you can lift 50 tons.

 

So, I think that the -5 STR applies, no matter what STR the character starts with.

 

Edit: Hey, no fair! Editing while I'm replying...

 

Yes, I think that's right. "Half Lifting Capacity" doesn't mean "Half STR" in the HERO system. In other words, Grond could lift 85 STR with one hand (3.2 kton) and 85 STR with the other hand (3.2 kton) for a total of 6.4 kton - which is the same as 90 STR.

 

Does create an interesting question, though: What about Grond, or another character with more than 2 usable limbs? Is it -5 STR per limb above the first? Or should you try to cound the total number of limbs, then give him -5 STR for each limb less than the total available? Hmn...

[SirViss]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Well, MickeyMitchell, if you had been a player in a game and asked that during a session, my answer would have been: "-5 STR, whatever happens, ask me again after the game."

 

But, since I have time to think right now, I guess you could simply say that if you use half your limbs on someone/thing you get -5 STR, ¼ your limbs would be at -10 STR, etc.

 

At the same time, it would remove effectiveness from some character conception (though mostly for the GM). When the GM throws Reluthu, Demon-God of 1000 tentacles, if he used only 2 tentacles would you demand that the monster use it -45 STR?

 

I think it is just simpler and not too unbanlancing to simply say -5 STR for 1 limb. But as Steve says, thos would probably have to be tempered by dramatic concideration, game balance issues, etc.

 

I wonder if this is going to be touched upon in the Ultimate Metamorph? Steve?

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Grabbing multiple foes

 

Well, MickeyMitchell, if you had been a player in a game and asked that during a session, my answer would have been: "-5 STR, whatever happens, ask me again after the game."

 

But, since I have time to think right now, I guess you could simply say that if you use half your limbs on someone/thing you get -5 STR, ¼ your limbs would be at -10 STR, etc.

 

At the same time, it would remove effectiveness from some character conception (though mostly for the GM). When the GM throws Reluthu, Demon-God of 1000 tentacles, if he used only 2 tentacles would you demand that the monster use it -45 STR?

 

I think it is just simpler and not too unbanlancing to simply say -5 STR for 1 limb. But as Steve says, thos would probably have to be tempered by dramatic concideration, game balance issues, etc.

 

I wonder if this is going to be touched upon in the Ultimate Metamorph? Steve?

 

Hey, that's "Mikey" (no "c"). Mickey is a mouse! :-)

 

I think your solution is quite workable, actually. So, if Grond (4 arms) Grabs with 2 arms, he gets credit for 85 STR. On the one hand, you could look at that as 'punishing' Grond - after all, if anyone else Grabs with 2 arms, they get full STR credit. However, since Grond still has 2 arms free, he could conceivably still attack, open doors, etc.

 

I'm with you. Steve? :-)