Jade Tiger Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 One of the very few 'hiccups' that I've seen in the ultra-coolness that is the Hero system is the way actions and initiative are arranged... Has anyone ever come up with a way to HR it and randomize initiative a little bit? Or at least, does anyone have a cool contextual explanation of the theory behind this method that could settle me into a little more comfort with this? Part of me looks at it and seems to understand, given all the dimensions and conditions that can exist in combat, that the system as is, is perfectly fine. But, another part of me can't seem to let go of the nagging feeling that there's a big hole in my game where the statement "Roll Initiative" used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Initiative... It is very simple to include an initiative roll in the normal Hero combat system. The most simple method would be to roll 1D6 and add this number to your characters Dex. Then go from highest to lowest as normal, but with a slightly altered Dex each phase. Others here have come up with varying systems of varying degrees of complexity, but I think most of us here stick to the Hero standard of no initiative roll. The same issue used to bother me a little, and I've even come up with my own Initiative system. In my system, every character had an Initiative Value (IV) which was derived from their (Dex + Int)/5. Thus a "normal" with a Dex of 10 and an Int of 10 has an IV of 4. This number is added to a 1D6 roll to determine initiative for one's phase. This is only important if two or more characters have a phase in the same segment, of course (I'm far too enamored with the HERO speed chart to ever ditch it) With this system, one could come up with Skill levels that affect Initiative. Lightning Reflexes would add directly to the IV substat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade Tiger Posted January 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Initiative... That seems cool. But, yeah, I can tell that you see where I'm coming from. It's not a 'gripe' or a 'problem' per se. It's just a niggling little half-issue kinda thing. I mean, in all honesty and fairness. Think of any game you've ever played on a different system (one that incorporates "random" initiative). Put yourself in that memory and look around the gaming table... Can't you go around the table and assign a number to each person based on when they'll act in the turn? I sure could. There's always the one guy who absolutely /always/ goes first. Another who's almost always second. A couple people who trade-off occasionally with 3rd and 4th and then there's always the poor fool who goes dead last. Every turn, this is the case. So, yeah, I admit it's an extremely moot point at best. But, still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Initiative... Have everyone roll under their SPD+4 every segment on 3d6. SPD 2 characters will act if they roll 6 or under, SPD 6 characters if they roll 10 or under, SPD 12 characters if they roll 16 or less. In the segment itself, every action is a contest of DEX, low roll goes first. Distorts the mechanics a bit, but adds some randomness into the game. Personally I just stick to the standard format, but the above can be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Initiative... HERO gamers tending to be inveterate system tinkerers, this subject pops up on the boards from time to time, and quite a few alternatives have been proposed and discussed. Below is a selection of such topics: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22712 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21191 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20222 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14160 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11041 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7609 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7368 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6407 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hierax Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 DEX Initiative and SPD Phases Randomized DEX Initiative Randomized: Treat your DEX as STR Damage (10 DEX = 2d6, 20 DEX = 4d6) and Roll Dice for Initiative and highest result goes first. Lightning Reflexes adds to this total. SPD Phases Randomized: Roll as many d12s as the character has SPD, the results are the Phases that they act on (reroll duplicates). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Initiative... WARNING: Before introducing a random element into initiative, realize that doing so will slow combat down, for two reasons: You're adding Yet Another Die Roll to the process for every PC and NPC every Phase (sometimes more than one, when tiebreaker rolls are needed). You can't prepare a combat sheet in advance, so the action will generally be less smooth, and you'll do a lot of asking who goes next. That doesn't mean you absolutely shouldn't do it -- I agree there's something to be said for a bit of unpredictability in the combat order -- just be aware that you might be tossing sand into machinery that isn't always lightning-fast in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Initiative... HERO gamers tending to be inveterate system tinkerers, this subject pops up on the boards from time to time, and quite a few alternatives have been proposed and discussed. Below is a selection of such topics: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22712 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21191 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20222 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14160 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11041 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7609 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7368 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6407 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3250 Gotta love that we have a regular Link-O-Maniac in our midst! Just one thing to add (since I have yet to read all the above links yet). Once your players get more accustomed to using the Standard Combat Manuevers like Block and Dodge they will begin to understand the value of Delaying their Phase. If enough players and/or PC's do this you have a default 'Initiative' system occur all on its own since the involved characters have to make Dex rolls to go first. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jogger Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Initiative... I suppose you could buy a varation on Lightning Reflexes. Unpredictable 6 points for +6 DEX, Only to Act First (-1), Roll 1D6 for effect (-1) Rage (Push that DEX) 4 points for +6 DEX, Only to Act First (-1), Costs END (-1/2). Cost 1 END per DEX added (-1), Activation 11- (-1) The possibilities are endless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Initiative... Maybe one of those links is one I've posted in before... but here is what I do. It is based on the following game play issue our group has had over the years. 1) The Speed Chart was too predictable. 2) The Speed Chart system made a character with one point higher in speed a MUCH greater advantage than 10 points should warrant. 3) The Speed Chart forced players to "maximise" every action, because player spent so much time twiddling their thumbs when it wasn't their phase/segment. It forced a "wargaming" aspect that none of us liked. What I did was introduce combat rounds and initiative. Phases and Segments are gone... and four rounds is the equivalent "time" of a turn under the Speed Chart. Buy Speed as always... but to determine actions in a round... roll a d6 and add it to your SPD state. That is your action. (Example: Have a six SPD, roll a 4, you action is on 10) Start each round with the highest action rolled, and count down. Yes... this means every character, including two SPD normals, get an action every turn. Big Important Point: Roll high enough total on SPD + d6, and you get two actions. The break point is 11. (Example: 6 SPD rolls a 5, goes on 11. They go on 11 for First Actions... and then once all First Actions are taken, they get a second action on 11, counting down again.) The break point for three actions is 17, and continues for every 6 increments. (Getting three actions is almost unheard of, but some 11 and 12 SPD speedsters have achieved it.) This accomplishes much of what we wanted. Everyone is engaged, every round, because everyone has an action. Actions are faster, more instinctive, because players aren't trying to maximise their effectiveness. People don't whine when they miss anymore... they don't hesitate to blow actions to take perception rolls and to "set up" a shot by moving into position. It also makes the variation between SPDs less problematic. A six SPD character doesn't totally dominate a five SPD character in a one on one fight. Others will point out that they feel this devalues SPD too much. I can only say that it hasn't played out that way in our games at all. It does make SPD less powerful than before, but I wanted that. It does eliminate the concept of "Post Segment 12" so no auto-recoveries. This speeds up combat in general... and those second actions are often used to recover... or they are needed to "abort" for block, dodge, whatever. The biggest tactic is the 2 action character attacking with their first, knowing they have a second action to abort to defensively if they are attacked later in the first actions. If you don't have a second action, and you've used your first... you can't abort (without a luck chit... but that is a different house rule). While it may not reduce the length of combat over all... a lot more "actions" happen in the combat than previously. We blow through 8-12 Rounds easily on average. It isn't perfect. We have to recalculate things like End Battery recoveries and Regeneration and stuff like that that happen "Post Segment 12" differently. It does reduce the "simultaneous" actions a lot. It is rare that two characters will roll the same initiative action AND have the exact same DEX... so when it does happen, it is kind of cool. Best of all, it reduces (at least for us) a tactical, wargaming sense... and makes combats much more free flowing and interesting. Try it out... lemme know what you think. It is something that doesn't require rewriting character or changing point costs... so just trying it for one night would be possible to see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Initiative... How random do you want to be? Hero is about as non-random as you can get. There are a few maneuvers characters can use to speed up their actions, but otherwise, they always move in the same sequence. D&D 3 is semi-random. You roll once at the start of combat, and that sets the order for the rest of combat. There's really only unpredictable randomness once (although there, delaying changes your order for the rest of the battle). D&D 1 and 2 had a more pure randomness, with a new roll each round. As Derek points out, the more random you get, the more dice you roll. More dice rolls = slower combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: Initiative... OK, haven't read LL's links, so don't know if this idea was covered. Roll your SPD in d6 each PS12 and the BODY total is your speed for that turn. Apply your SPD for that turn as a penalty to DEX when determining who goes first in a phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jade Tiger Posted January 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... OK, haven't read LL's links, so don't know if this idea was covered. Roll your SPD in d6 each PS12 and the BODY total is your speed for that turn. Apply your SPD for that turn as a penalty to DEX when determining who goes first in a phase. Wouldn't this make it so that having a higher SPD made you less likely to go first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... I love those card drawing alternatives to the speed chart. Anyone considered going a step further and having additional special effects on the cards, a la Torg / Masterbook (and probably other games as well). In such a deck, you could separate out post-12 recoveries for heroes and villains (or even for each individual PC). That could create a really cinematic ebb and flow effect to combats that is currently lacking, with everyone recovering at the same point. You could have cards in there that signify bonus actions (e.g. extra movement phase), or mandatory actions (e.g. Villain must run away, or Heroes must dodge/block). Seems to me this sort of innovation can take the existing Hero System and add on some of the cinematic edge that at present it doesnt replicate so well. Rule options like this are ideal for supplementing GM style in trying to different genre idioms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... I love those card drawing alternatives to the speed chart. Anyone considered going a step further and having additional special effects on the cards, a la Torg / Masterbook (and probably other games as well). In such a deck, you could separate out post-12 recoveries for heroes and villains (or even for each individual PC). That could create a really cinematic ebb and flow effect to combats that is currently lacking, with everyone recovering at the same point. You could have cards in there that signify bonus actions (e.g. extra movement phase), or mandatory actions (e.g. Villain must run away, or Heroes must dodge/block). Seems to me this sort of innovation can take the existing Hero System and add on some of the cinematic edge that at present it doesnt replicate so well. Rule options like this are ideal for supplementing GM style in trying to different genre idioms. This is the kind of thing I get when I use my Luck Chit system, merged with my initiative system. Changes nothing in terms of price or character building, but plays out much more dramatically... much less linear... an much more exciting in actualy play. (That's a different thread though... this is just about initiative.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etherio Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... I've always felt that the Speed chart not only makes combat a little plodding and predictable, but, like RDU Neil mentioned, it also gives an individual who's 1 SPD higher than most others in a battle a unique tactical advantage that's greater than just the one additional action. I think we use an excellent system, which I'm sure has been duplicated by other Hero gamers. Each character just rolls a d12 at the beginning of each segment. (I make one shared roll for identical agents or thugs to simplifiy things.) If a character's roll is equal to or less than his SPD stat, he gets a phase that segment. If he rolls a 12, he gets a Post-Segment 12 recovery and all his other "Turn-based" things take place (returning points from an Aid, powers with extra time going off, completing changing powers in a VPP, taking bleeding damage, etc.). Statistically, each character will get the same ratio of phases over the long term that he should with the official system. Yeah, yeah, I know it doesn't use a d6, but who cares really...and most of us have dice laying around that we rarely use anymore, anyway. This system may sound like an added hassle to your bookkeeping, but it really has the opposite effect. You don't have to mess with the Speed Chart or even keep track of what segment it is, unless a particular situation really calls for knowing exactly how many seconds have passed. Each segment stands on its own. I find that this system also makes combat more dynamic by eliminating the "plan-the-timing-of-your-Haymaker" style of metagaming that the Speed Chart encourages. Additionally, this system simplifies buying SPD with limitations and allows for some interesting and playable power constructs. For example, a PC in my campaign has super-reflexes. He has a 6 SPD and bought +2SPD with the limitation "only to Abort", -1. If he rolls 1-6 on his "initiative" roll at the beginning of the segment, he can act normally. If he gets a 7 or 8, he can choose to abort to a defensive action only. One could create an easily-playable gunslinger with "+1SPD, only for firing guns," or a 4-armed monster with "+2 SPD, only for punching." It also makes mounted characters or those driving vehicles more simple. If your steed has a 3 SPD and you have a 4 SPD, there's no complicated synchronizing of phases. If you roll a 1-3, you and your mount can both act...on a 4, only you can act. It also makes the complications of wanting to change one's SPD in the middle of a turn (when drowning, for example) a non-issue. Also, let's not forget that it's just kind of fun to "roll initiative." Players tend to stay invested in the game continuously with this system, rather than having their attention or interest wane during stretches of segments when their phases don't come up. Try it...I think you'll like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etherio Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... Most of you guys must have a more interactive experience with these boards than I do. Damn time zone differences mean that there's pretty much nobody else logged on when I am. I post something and have to check back tomorrow to see what responses have popped up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodshot Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... I've been using RDU Neil's method for the last few games, and I have found that it has definitely sped things up. Some grumbling from characters about how all the points they spent on SPD are going to waste, and that high SPD characters are getting hosed. As the GM I simply said "I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's the way I wish to run my combats as my brain can handle this system better." The only difference I've been trying out is having people go in order of their DEX instead of their SPD+d6 roll. Still makes DEX worth someting in determining the order of who goes when. Since our group is a mix of hardcore gamers and those more interested in role-playing, the role-players are staying involved more. Which is a good thing in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silbeg Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... WARNING: Before introducing a random element into initiative, realize that doing so will slow combat down, for two reasons: You're adding Yet Another Die Roll to the process for every PC and NPC every Phase (sometimes more than one, when tiebreaker rolls are needed). You can't prepare a combat sheet in advance, so the action will generally be less smooth, and you'll do a lot of asking who goes next. That doesn't mean you absolutely shouldn't do it -- I agree there's something to be said for a bit of unpredictability in the combat order -- just be aware that you might be tossing sand into machinery that isn't always lightning-fast in the first place. My solution to this problem was to write a Java application to handle the speed chart for me. While it currently doesn't handle lightning reflexes well (though I would just add the DEX granted, my players don't use it anyways), and has no provision for mid-turn speed changes (or speed changes at all), it works pretty good. With matching DEX values, I just order it randomly. Clean and simple. Oh, and Dark Champions suggests adding INT and/or PRE to the tie breaks... my next version of this software will break ties in the following order: DEX PRE INT random I switched the suggested order of INT and PRE to reduce the already large advantages that buying up one's INT can give... also because I like the fact that a more awesome character (higher PRE) would get the advantage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... I've been using RDU Neil's method for the last few games, and I have found that it has definitely sped things up. Some grumbling from characters about how all the points they spent on SPD are going to waste, and that high SPD characters are getting hosed. As the GM I simply said "I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's the way I wish to run my combats as my brain can handle this system better." The only difference I've been trying out is having people go in order of their DEX instead of their SPD+d6 roll. Still makes DEX worth someting in determining the order of who goes when. Since our group is a mix of hardcore gamers and those more interested in role-playing, the role-players are staying involved more. Which is a good thing in my mind. Glad you are trying it out... and glad you found it speeding things up. It certainly seems to do so for my group, both in number of actions accomplished, and the "psychological involvement" you mentioned. It seems to keep players engaged. I am a bit confused by your "Dex instead of SPD +6" If you don't use SPD + 6... what would you use SPD for? Are you thinking of just eliminating SPD? That makes DEX worth a lot more... and how do you factor in "multiple actions" with just DEX? Do you use multiple actions? Just wondering, as I'm always interested in looking at house rules to see if the idea might apply in some way to my games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... I've always felt that the Speed chart not only makes combat a little plodding and predictable, but, like RDU Neil mentioned, it also gives an individual who's 1 SPD higher than most others in a battle a unique tactical advantage that's greater than just the one additional action. I think we use an excellent system, which I'm sure has been duplicated by other Hero gamers. Each character just rolls a d12 at the beginning of each segment. (I make one shared roll for identical agents or thugs to simplifiy things.) If a character's roll is equal to or less than his SPD stat, he gets a phase that segment. If he rolls a 12, he gets a Post-Segment 12 recovery and all his other "Turn-based" things take place (returning points from an Aid, powers with extra time going off, completing changing powers in a VPP, taking bleeding damage, etc.). Statistically, each character will get the same ratio of phases over the long term that he should with the official system. Yeah, yeah, I know it doesn't use a d6, but who cares really...and most of us have dice laying around that we rarely use anymore, anyway. This system may sound like an added hassle to your bookkeeping, but it really has the opposite effect. You don't have to mess with the Speed Chart or even keep track of what segment it is, unless a particular situation really calls for knowing exactly how many seconds have passed. Each segment stands on its own. I find that this system also makes combat more dynamic by eliminating the "plan-the-timing-of-your-Haymaker" style of metagaming that the Speed Chart encourages. Additionally, this system simplifies buying SPD with limitations and allows for some interesting and playable power constructs. For example, a PC in my campaign has super-reflexes. He has a 6 SPD and bought +2SPD with the limitation "only to Abort", -1. If he rolls 1-6 on his "initiative" roll at the beginning of the segment, he can act normally. If he gets a 7 or 8, he can choose to abort to a defensive action only. One could create an easily-playable gunslinger with "+1SPD, only for firing guns," or a 4-armed monster with "+2 SPD, only for punching." It also makes mounted characters or those driving vehicles more simple. If your steed has a 3 SPD and you have a 4 SPD, there's no complicated synchronizing of phases. If you roll a 1-3, you and your mount can both act...on a 4, only you can act. It also makes the complications of wanting to change one's SPD in the middle of a turn (when drowning, for example) a non-issue. Also, let's not forget that it's just kind of fun to "roll initiative." Players tend to stay invested in the game continuously with this system, rather than having their attention or interest wane during stretches of segments when their phases don't come up. Try it...I think you'll like it. Quick question... Etherio? If I understand your system correctly... it might be possible for a character to have a 6 SPD and through bad luck, roll over a 6 many times in a row on a d12... and thus NEVER get to act? That seems a bit TOO random for me... or am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodshot Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... I am a bit confused by your "Dex instead of SPD +6" If you don't use SPD + 6... what would you use SPD for? Are you thinking of just eliminating SPD? That makes DEX worth a lot more... and how do you factor in "multiple actions" with just DEX? Do you use multiple actions? Just wondering, as I'm always interested in looking at house rules to see if the idea might apply in some way to my games. Perhaps I should clarify. I do the SPD+6 roll to determine how many actions they get, then I let the players act in order of their DEX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... I've been using RDU Neil's method for the last few games, and I have found that it has definitely sped things up. Some grumbling from characters about how all the points they spent on SPD are going to waste, and that high SPD characters are getting hosed. As the GM I simply said "I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's the way I wish to run my combats as my brain can handle this system better." Given a significant mechanical change, I would follow this up with "If you want to revise your character to reduce his SPD and spend the points elsewhere, I'll allow that." The assumptions the characters were designed under have changed. It seems fair that the characters could be redesigned with this in mind. I had an extensive discusson regarding RDU Neil's system, and also felt (and still feel) it significantly devalued Speed. If the difference between a 1 and 4 SPD is only "You'll generally get your actions first", I can find a better use for 30 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... Quick question... Etherio? If I understand your system correctly... it might be possible for a character to have a 6 SPD and through bad luck' date=' roll over a 6 many times in a row on a d12... and thus NEVER get to act? That seems a bit TOO random for me... or am I missing something?[/quote'] Every time I've seen the system (to clartify, the "d12 to determine whether you move each phase" system), that's a risk. It's funny how players tend to want it to be "more random" until the randomness acts against them instead of for them. One tweak I've seen to address this is to add 1 to the number the character needs to roll for each missed roll. So, if you have a 6 SPD, and you roll nothing but 12's, you'll still act every 6th time, so even in a worst case scenario, you'll get to act eventually. I can see this getting very annoying in a genre where speeds cap out at 4, but you can always tweak it (eg. use a d4 or a d6) to reduce the number of "Again no one moves!" phases. For myself, the SPD chart works. If I were going to change it, I'd probably go the playing card route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: Initiative... Given a significant mechanical change, I would follow this up with "If you want to revise your character to reduce his SPD and spend the points elsewhere, I'll allow that." The assumptions the characters were designed under have changed. It seems fair that the characters could be redesigned with this in mind. I had an extensive discusson regarding RDU Neil's system, and also felt (and still feel) it significantly devalued Speed. If the difference between a 1 and 4 SPD is only "You'll generally get your actions first", I can find a better use for 30 points. I totally agree with Hugh, here. Players who feel their SPD isn't worth as much (and it isn't) should be allowed to adjust their characters accordingly. What you may find is that the 8 SPD Martial Artist is quite comfortable with a six SPD now, and should be able to spend that 20 points elsewhere... say on some background skills, or some cool ninja smokebombs... whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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