Applying shapeshift in game

[Sean Waters]

I just can't seem to get my head around shapeshift (ba-da-boom). I posted this problem as part another thread, but that has gone to sleep with the fishes, and was getting a bit long anyway, which can be off-putting. I am, however, interested in any help you can give me so that I can apply this in a game so that it will make sense to the players and still accord with the rules, so here it is again...

 

Let me give you an example of what really confuses me, based on the 'change into a snake' thing in the FAQ.

 

There's this pipe. It has a six inch diameter (that'll be 15 cms, not 12 metres..) and I have shapeshift applied to every sense you can think of. So long as you have thought of touch, then the shape you appear to be is the shape you are, and if you've shapeshifted into a 20 foot long snake with a 5.5 inch diameter you can fit through the pipe and if an attack is launched against any part of you then you will feel it: your appearance and actual 'environmental' shape do not differ.

 

Now, same thing every sense, but this time not touch, you 'are' shapeshifted by the definition of the power, buy only as far as the perception of others goes. That could be enormously useful, however...

 

I've shapeshifted into a snake that could fit through the pipe if I'd had the touch sense group included, but I didn't. I can't fit through the pipe, but I appear to every sense but touch as if I can, so I must have some part of me outside apparent snake shape and it must be invisible to every sense but touch. The snake is about 20 feet long, and is stretched out in a straight line. Two nasty men stamp on the snake, one on the head, one on the end of the tail. Do I actually take damage from both attacks? I'm not 'really' 20 feet long, I'm just perceived that way - not to touch though. To touch I'm still 6 feet long, and not thin enough to fit through a pipe.

 

I really can not reconcile how this works in game. It is fine to say 'base it on sfx' but what should they be and how would they work?

 

If you say well you are the shape you appear to be, so both attacks damage you, then it makes no sense that you can not fit through the pipe. If you say that you retain your human shape, this is a huge combat advantage: pick a shape that you don't occupy and half the attacks launched at you will automatically miss.

 

How would you rule on this?

[OddHat]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

If you don't have Shapeshift to touch, it's just a Hologram, Magical Glamour or Mental Illusion. The image of the new you sits on top of you, but the real you is still there. Fiction is full of these kinds of tricks, from holo-belts used for camo on alien worlds to Mandrake creating the Hypnotic Illusion that he is in fact a gorilla.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

I would have applied Images to create a hologram / etc. power. Not Shapeshift.

 

I've decided that Touch group is the default for Shapeshift. If you don't have that, you don't have Shapeshift - you have Images.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

In the specific example you cite, my in-game ruling would be that there has to be some generalized correlation between the actions of your Shapeshifted form and your real form. In other words, to get the illusory snake overlaying your real form to appear to be lying stretched out on its belly, you would have to lie down on the ground and do the same.

 

If the shape-distribution of the apparent form is significantly different from your own, I would rule that there's a slight shift in the apparent orientation of the Shifted form relative to the perspective of the viewer, such that the bulk of your mass would be where the viewer perceives the form to be closest to him.

 

Not a perfect rationalization, I admit, but good enough for government work.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

I would have applied Images to create a hologram / etc. power. Not Shapeshift.

 

I've decided that Touch group is the default for Shapeshift. If you don't have that, you don't have Shapeshift - you have Images.

 

Certainly a reasonable enough requirement for your campaign. Of course if you don't have the Touch Group covered the effect is essentially an image, with the major difference that Shape Shift has no Perception Roll to see through it associated with it as Images does.

 

I've cautioned folks before against getting too hung up on what the name of a HERO game mechanic happens to be. "Shape Shift" isn't always literally shifting your shape, any more than "Energy Blast" is always made of energy.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

I would rule that having Shapeshift to Sight only would allow someone to appear different. (Nightcrawler can flip a switch on his holograph projector and look human). Yes, that can probably be done with Images, Self Only, and Set Effect (if he has only one form), but... If that was the effect that he wanted, that's Shapeshift (sight only). I click the switch, I look like someone roughly the same size and shape, but looking like something different.

 

Now, if you want an illusion of being a puppy, or a giant snake, or even a small boy. Well, that's pushing the limits of Shapeshift, Sight Only (IMHO). But you can get a +2 DCV. But, in combat, in they manage to hit you then your image probably drops (unless bought with Persistent) and well, there you are. Even still, if it's a giant snake, it's closer to a 10 foot snake and it has to overlap where you are. (Projecting across the room or even in the next hex is not allowed.)

 

Shapeshift is Self Only.

 

Why +2 DCV? Well, that' s one level of Shrinking, you see. Your image is either twice as big or half-sized, either way that's +2 DCV. You can also rule that he has -2 PER to be seen if it's a small image.

 

If they would have hit you, but missed because of your bonus, that's them hitting your image and not you or the fact they're aiming for the small puppy and not your upper body. (still if you are using hit locations, a stray shot might actually hit you, not the image)

 

+2 DCV is useful, but still not as useful as Invisibility or Images. Your best bet is looking like something that's supposed to be there (if you can). Or changing into something that can make an impressive PRE attack (give bonus or subtract dice as approriate for the shape). If a player wants a bigger or smaller shapes, that's ok, but it should cost them more.

[OddHat]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Shape Shift in 5th ed is Images, and as Killer SHrike has suggested Images, Shape Shift, Invisibility and Darkness should probably all be mered into one "Images" power. In the case of the mechanical effect "Shape Shift", your shape is not changing if you don't have SS versus Touch group; it's just the name of the mechanic.

 

The name of the Mechanic and the name of the SFX are not automatically interchangeable in Hero; get over it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Some useful ideas, thank you all. I like LL's idea about apparent perspective, although I don't think that it always practical: if there are two enemies, for example. I am trying to avoid getting hung up on the name shape shift, honest.

 

Also interesting to note Taximan's position about requiring touch so that the shift is 'real' (of course you then run into the problem: I can fit through a 6 inch hole, so I'm going to have to be long and thin, but as I didn't buy SS for sight I still look normal...erm...). I have to say that not being the same shape (to touch) as you appear to be (to sight) is more of an Images solution to me too, as OddHat mentioned. I think the problem is that the targetting sense you use is sight but what you are actually targetting is the physical mass, and if they do not corellate, that makes it difficult to understand.

 

Although I don't think you should get a DCV bonus as BlueJogger suggested, I may rule that, if you can not actually change shape as far as touch goes you basically have to fill the same space as youn normal shape does, no matter what you look like (a la the Nightcrawler hologram). I suppose that would mean you could change into a giant snake but not stretch out: you would have to coil and rear inside a single hex.

 

I'd always thought that stretching was a more appropriate power for mass-re-distribution than shape shift was anyway, as this is what it already does.

[saffo]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

A few questions of my own...

1. What is you have cellular but you don’t have the touch group? Cellular says that your thumb print will be identical. Does cellular imply the touch group?

2. If you have imitation do you need the hearing group in order to imitate a human or animals voice/call?

3. Does imitating a Bird (if you have touch and cellular) allow you to fly?

[Lord Beavis]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

A few questions of my own...

 

1. What if you have cellular but you don’t have the touch group? Cellular says that your thumb print will be identical. Does cellular imply the touch group?

 

No. In any form you take, you have a finger print. Deforming the print, doesn't really change the whole shifter.

 

2. If you have imitation do you need the hearing group in order to imitate a human or animals voice/call?

 

This would be best covered under images.

 

3. Does imitating a Bird (if you have touch and cellular) allow you to fly?

 

No. This would be best covered under multiform. Although, if you bought Flight seperatley or linked to Shapeshift (with the limitation: Only when shifted into an object or animal that can fly) you could do it.

 

With multiform and Images, shape shift seems to be the odd power out. I think it can be for used as inanimate objects only.

[saffo]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Cellular + immitation specificly mentions the example of retina scan and thumb print in the book. If you are reproducing someone ona cellular level, then wouldnt your voice also sound identical? Heck if I can reproduce your retina (which is unique) why can I reproduce your vocal chords? For that matter why cant I reproduce a relatively simple thing like a wing on a bird for flight?

[OddHat]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Cellular + immitation specificly mentions the example of retina scan and thumb print in the book. If you are reproducing someone ona cellular level' date=' then wouldnt your voice also sound identical? Heck if I can reproduce your retina (which is unique) why can I reproduce your vocal chords? For that matter why cant I reproduce a relatively simple thing like a wing on a bird for flight?[/quote']

 

Mechanic versus Special Effect. If you want to duplicate a bird's wings, and thus gain the ability to fly, that is a Special Effect of the Game Mechanic "Flight". Your Shapeshifting character, if he spends the points on "Flight" has still changed his shape and gained the power to fly; the special effect is that he has the wings of a bird to do it with.

 

Without accompanying powers, the 5th Ed version of the Game Mechanic "Shape Shift" is mainly concerned with fooling the senses of observers; most other aspects of "Shape Shift" as a special effect must be paid for as additional powers.

 

As to your other questions:

 

1. What is you have cellular but you don’t have the touch group? Cellular says that your thumb print will be identical. Does cellular imply the touch group?

 

Think of it as fooling the Cellular Scanner, not as reshaping your cells.

 

2. If you have imitation do you need the hearing group in order to imitate a human or animals voice/call?

 

Yes. "Imitation" only applies to sense groups that you can already fool.

[Lord Beavis]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Originally posted by Saffo

Cellular + immitation specifically mentions the example of retina scan and thumb print in the book. If you are reproducing someone on a cellular level, then wouldn't your voice also sound identical? Heck, if I can reproduce your retina (which is unique) why can't I reproduce your vocal chords? For that matter why can't I reproduce a relatively simple thing like a wing on a bird for flight?

 

The problem with the game mechanics (Oh no!!! But, HERO is the perfect system!!) is they have three powers that can work in the same area. Shape shift, multi-form, and Images.

 

 

When a player comes to a GM with a character idea that includes the area of shape shift, they should sit down and decide what powers would cover the concept behind the shape shift.

 

Shape shift mercifully for most GMs is a rare selection by players. In the example that began this with the snake wanting to go through the pipe, you could do the following:

 

Multi-form would get you through the pipe, but most players don't want to sit down and make up another character sheet just to fit through a pipe.

 

Images will make you look, sound, and feel like a snake, but it won't get you through the pipe.

 

Shape Shift could do this but realize you are still at the same size unless you have shrinking. Instead of having a 100kg man, you have a 100 kg snake.

 

Stretching could accomplish this also.

 

Shape shift doesn't have as many applications as people think. The more rules they added to it, the more it showed it's own limitations.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Also interesting to note Taximan's position about requiring touch so that the shift is 'real' (of course you then run into the problem: I can fit through a 6 inch hole, so I'm going to have to be long and thin, but as I didn't buy SS for sight I still look normal...erm...).

 

You won't look normal, you'll just look like what you are: a guy stretched out and compressed. You won't fool anyone into thinking you're a snake or a rope.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

I am getting somewhat burnt out on this topic. People seem to forget that to create a power, you should start with the concept in mind, and then find a mechanic that implements that concept. Don't start with a rules mechanic and then try to figure out what the SFX are - it's not always possible to come up with a concept for every possible mechanic. But so what? The point of the "Ultimate Gamers' Toolkit" is to provide a mechanic for every possible concept, not the other way around.

 

If you want to actually be able to change your shape (fit through the pipe, scoop up water, become aerodymaic, become a ladder, etc.), buy SS* to all the sense groups that would be affected by your change. This would include Sight and Touch 99.999% of the time. Offhand, I can't think of any reason why you could fit through the pipe, but not be seen to be a shape that could fit through the pipe. Nor can I think of any way that you could actually fit through the pipe, but not be "touchable" as the appropriate shape. In many cases, you might want to buy the Hearing group as well, to reflect the fact that your footsteps won't sound the same if you radically alter the size and shape of your feet, for example. Logically, this "actual shape shifting" would affect sonar and radar as well, but these can be hand-waved as included "for free" as Steve Long himself has recommended.

 

If you want to be able to cover your appearance with a hologram, then just buy SS* to Sight only. Is it a huge advantage to appear to have a long snake tail that isn't actually part of your body? No. Unless the guy trying to hurt you by stomping on your "tail" is really, really stupid, he'll change his tactics after the first time his foot passes right through the holographic image. Most of the time, you aim for the center of a body you want to hit.

 

If you want to fool really detailed examinations, you buy Cellular. It could be agrued that this adder is misnamed, becuse it could apply to methods that have nothing to do with your cells. If you buy SS to Sight only + Cellular, you can fool minute visual scans, like most fingerprint scanners and retina scanners. However, you won't fool voice analysis (hearing), body-chemistry-based scans (Smell, or maybe touch), or fingerprint scans that use a tactile sensor rather than visual (touch), etc.

 

If you want to fool minute senses into thinking your a specific other person or thing, you need both Imitation and Cellular. If you only want to fool the macro senses into thinking your a specific other person or thing, all you need is Imitation.

 

*Assuming you choose to use Shape Shift to build your concept. There are often many ways to build a given concept in HERO. That's a good thing. You have the freedom to choose how your concept is built. The choice you make determines how it will work mechanically in play.

[Lord Beavis]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I am getting somewhat burnt out on this topic. People seem to forget that to create a power, you should start with the concept in mind, and then find a mechanic that implements that concept. Don't start with a rules mechanic and then try to figure out what the SFX are - it's not always possible to come up with a concept for every possible mechanic. But so what? The point of the "Ultimate Gamers' Toolkit" is to provide a mechanic for every possible concept, not the other way around.

 

I agree with this statement.

 

If you want to actually be able to change your shape (fit through the pipe, scoop up water, become aerodymaic, become a ladder, etc.), buy SS* to all the sense groups that would be affected by your change. This would include Sight and Touch 99.999% of the time. Offhand, I can't think of any reason why you could fit through the pipe, but not be seen to be a shape that could fit through the pipe. Nor can I think of any way that you could actually fit through the pipe, but not be "touchable" as the appropriate shape. In many cases, you might want to buy the Hearing group as well, to reflect the fact that your footsteps won't sound the same if you radically alter the size and shape of your feet, for example. Logically, this "actual shape shifting" would affect sonar and radar as well, but these can be hand-waved as included "for free" as Steve Long himself has recommended.

 

I think Sight, Touch, and Hearing are all default senses that have to be taken.

 

If you want to be able to cover your appearance with a hologram, then just buy SS* to Sight only.

 

I disagree, this is clearly covered by Images or Mental Illusions. My point is you either shape shift to an actual tail or it's an illusion. An actual tail is covered by extra limbs, if it's permanent, shape shift if temporary.

 

Is it a huge advantage to appear to have a long snake tail that isn't actually part of your body? No. Unless the guy trying to hurt you by stomping on your "tail" is really, really stupid, he'll change his tactics after the first time his foot passes right through the holographic image. Most of the time, you aim for the center of a body you want to hit.

 

I don't think it's a big advantage either, but it's covered by other powers more than adequitely.

 

If you want to fool really detailed examinations, you buy Cellular. It could be argued that this adder is misnamed, becuse it could apply to methods that have nothing to do with your cells. If you buy SS to Sight only + Cellular, you can fool minute visual scans, like most fingerprint scanners and retina scanners. However, you won't fool voice analysis (hearing), body-chemistry-based scans (Smell, or maybe touch), or fingerprint scans that use a tactile sensor rather than visual (touch), etc.

 

I have no problem with this rule. Better than a cellular scanner (and alot cheaper) is a simple password system. Shape shift can't help you there!!

 

*Assuming you choose to use Shape Shift to build your concept. There are often many ways to build a given concept in HERO. That's a good thing. You have the freedom to choose how your concept is built. The choice you make determines how it will work mechanically in play.

 

I agree there are a few different ways to go, but don't reinvent the wheel!!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

5E introduced quite a number of similarities between Shape Shift and Images (and other Sense Affecting Powers as well).

 

There is a key difference, however, in the mechanics of how Shape Shift and Images work. Images creates something perceivable to particular sense groups, and leaves everything that was already there along (it's still perceivable, though it might be "behind" the images). Shape Shift takes something that is perceivalbe, and makes it perceived as something else. If you make a hologram using Shape Shift, it's impenetrable by that sense group (you can't sense though it to sense what it's hiding or covering up, at least not by using any of the Sense Groups covered).

 

This difference might be subtle, maybe about as subtle as the difference between an EB and an RKA, but it's there and it's important.

 

As for deciding what actually happens using Shape Shift to appear to be a completely difference shape, such as a human looking like a snake, it is a bit tricky. I like some of the ground rules mentioned above (such as requiring at least Touch with Sight Group to actually assume a different shape). I'd still use some flexibility on things though. Suppose I can shape shift into a 20 ft long snake, but a snake that still feels like it's made of human flesh with hair. I wouldn't need to buy the touch group, but would still be 20 ft long. Maybe I can just buy some Stretching so I can reach 20 ft (which I should by even if I buy the touch group). May I want a super skilled contortionist, and just buy Shape Shift Touch Group so I can fit though bars and pipes and such, though I still retain my human appearance (though somewhat contorted when squeezing through stuff).

[Lord Beavis]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Originally posted by Dust Raven

5E introduced quite a number of similarities between Shape Shift and Images (and other Sense Affecting Powers as well).

 

Shape Shift has a number of similarities but one major difference: Shape Shift is a "real" change and Images is not.

 

There is a key difference, however, in the mechanics of how Shape Shift and Images work. Images creates something perceivable to particular sense groups, and leaves everything that was already there along (it's still perceivable, though it might be "behind" the images).

 

This is an illusion. This is where holograms should be used.

 

Shape Shift takes something that is perceivalbe, and makes it perceived as something else. If you make a hologram using Shape Shift, it's impenetrable by that sense group (you can't sense though it to sense what it's hiding or covering up, at least not by using any of the Sense Groups covered).

 

Holograms are illusions not a tangible change.

 

This difference might be subtle, maybe about as subtle as the difference between an EB and an RKA, but it's there and it's important.

 

I agree, the difference is Images are illusions and Shape Shift is a tangible "real" change.

 

As for deciding what actually happens using Shape Shift to appear to be a completely difference shape, such as a human looking like a snake, it is a bit tricky. I like some of the ground rules mentioned above (such as requiring at least Touch with Sight Group to actually assume a different shape).

 

Yes, to assume a new shape you have to have as a minimum the following guidelines:

Animate objects: Sight, Hearing, Touch.

Inanimate objects: Sight and Touch.

 

Suppose I can shape shift into a 20 ft long snake, but a snake that still feels like it's made of human flesh with hair. I wouldn't need to buy the touch group, but would still be 20 ft long.

 

I would require Sight, Hearing, and Touch, which allows Smell/Taste, Cellular, and Mental to "detect" the shifter.

 

Maybe I can just buy some Stretching so I can reach 20 ft (which I should buy even if I buy the touch group).

 

You could do that. Another instance where shape shift runs into another power.

 

Maybe I want a super skilled contortionist, and just buy Shape Shift Touch Group so I can fit though bars and pipes and such, though I still retain my human appearance (though somewhat contorted when squeezing through stuff).

 

No. Making your body able to squeeze or become malleable is Stretching. Shape shift is a "real" change from one form to another.

 

Shape Shift runs into Stretching, Multi-form, Duplication, Mental Illusions and Images.

[zornwil]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Given how SS is defined in 5th, I think we have to be careful as to saying that it is a "real" change. I don't think that's precisely correct. It is a "real" change only in regard to whatever senses are defined - as opposed to Images, in which case the level of deception is merely incremental, not absolute.

[saffo]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

It is a real change. The book specifies that in the header of the power and also in these links steve long confirms that it is real:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26745

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26764

[zornwil]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

It is a real change. The book specifies that in the header of the power and also in these links steve long confirms that it is real:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26745

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26764

Pardon the nit-pick, but Steve says it "can create "real" change." Not "does".

 

When Eosin asks about a "functional physical change", Steve answers "I'd say Sight and Touch at a minimum" are required.

 

So as I stated, it is a real change only in regard to specific chosen senses, and I think that "real" is a word that then carries a qualification with it. For example, if I am truly a cougar to sight, but a cougar in no other way, I don't think we can say I'm "really" a cougar, only that I "really appear" to be one (as opposed to Images in which case no matter how realistic the appearance is, some trick or flaw can be evidenced somehow even just with Sight (though perhaps requiring extremely powerful Sight)).

 

PS - Saffo, I apologize if this comes across as being simply picayune or contradictory, rather, I think the multiple discussions on this Power require an extreme precision in language owing to continued confusion. I suppose I'm not finding fault with your post, but I am trying to refine it.

 

Sigh, I wish that it had just been left as in 4th except with Adders to allow one to work out which Senses the Shape Shift is visible to more granularly than requiring simply IPE.

[saffo]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

No problem man, I find this very educational and I am excited to take part in these types of discussions.

 

My context for the word real is a physical thing. I don’t have my 5th edition revised with me right now, but I looked this up last night and it mentioned something along the lines of a "body" oriented change or "physical" of some sort.

 

I agree that the "real" part only applies to the sense it is affected and not the substantial nature of the shape in the universe. In other words... Its only real as far as our perception of the shape. It is not inherently real in the sense that a bird is infinitely itself and can do a number of things that we may or may not be able to perceive with our senses.

[zornwil]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Agreed, I just don't want "touch real" to be confused with "sight real that doesn't have touch real". Uh.....

 

I THINK that makes sense, and we're saying the same thing, actually!

[Bengal]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

Would a power that "only works on ham sandwiches" work against a character Shapeshifted into a ham sandwich?

[saffo]

Re: Applying shapeshift in game

 

I don’t know... If having Cellular, Sight and Touch can produce a Y chromosome as Steve Long suggests, then certainly a power only effecting woman or men could affect someone shape shifted.... So why cant it do the same with a ham sandwich?