Point saving tricks?

[Kurse]

It's been a while since I've played Champions and have forgotten some of the tricks used to save points on characters. Things like lowering com to 8 or using scores like 18 to lower cost but keep stat rolls the same. I'm playing with a GM that will use plenty of point savers on his NPCs but won't share so I need to know a few to make my guy compatible. Can ya'll please list some here? Thanks for any help.

[TheEmerged]

I'll contribute one and only one:

 

The wonders of 23, especially for DEX.

 

A 23 DEX will give you a CV of 8 (saving 3 points) and a skill roll of 14- (saving 3 more points). For some reason, a nearly obscene number of writeups I or my players do end up with a 23 DEX; for all practical purposes it's the campaign average whether we want it to be or not

[Rage]

sure... ofcource....

 

wait for the munchkin king: he will save you

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points

[SkyKnight]

I won't bother giving math tweaks, but maybe these suggestions will help you with your character.

 

1 - Don't buy reduced END on major powers. Use 1/2 END if you must, but if you are seriously tempted, just throw the extra points straight into CON.

 

2 - Consider cheaper movement powers. Flight and running are very good powers, but Leaping and Gliding are cheaper and can make for an interesting character concept. Leaping is especially good since you add to your natural STR based leaping.

 

3 - Go easy on the resistant defenses. It is tempting to make every point of defense resistant, but the difference between 12 and 20 resistant defense comes up less often than you would expect in my experience.

 

4 - Buy incidental powers through foci. Flash defense and radio can be an OIF Facemask on almost anyone.

 

5 - Be careful with elemental controls. They give you a big discount, but it is easy to overspend when you try to make every power the same number of active points.

 

6 - Think twice about multipowers. They are good if you have dissimilar powers, such as Energy Blast, Entangle and Aid. Multiple energy blasts don't add much for the points that they cost. Force Wall and Entangle can actually be redundant.

 

7 - Remember that a fun character concept is better than a point efficient one. We're gamers, not accountants. (except for anyone here who is both, but I wonder what a gaming accountant would be like anyway.)

 

8 - Have Fun

[CrosshairCollie]

Not really a 'point shave', but 17" is a good movement rate, getting you +6d6 damage on a Move-Through but only a -3 on the OCV ... assuming you're into that sort of thing.

[FTJoshua]

I'm fond of charges. It depends how much combat you are expecting to see. We only have one, maybe two fights in a session, and it's rare they go more than 2 turns lately. Plus you save END.

 

Does your GM allow rounding up? (Except Speed, of course.)

 

As has been pointed out here before, Hero favors the Brick. You get a lot more for your Strength investment (PD, REC, STUN) and CON investment (ED, REC, END, STUN) than you do for, say, EGO.

 

Combat skill levels are cheaper than DEX, but it depends on your concept. And I am big fan of Extra Damage Classes with Martial Arts rather than Hand-to-Hand attack, for example, since it adds to STR, damage and Killing dice.

[Guest Celt]

Beam attack (-1/4) can be your friend in the right places.

 

Increasing your Dex by 1 only costs you 2 points if you've already put any points into increasing your Speed.

 

1d6 Unluck. Comes up downside once in 6 sessions on average and you can have fun rping it.

 

Buy your Con up to the point where at least one of the figured stats from it is at the level you want.

 

If you have a lot of powers that cost End look closely at which is cheaper: Reduced End or buying up End and Recovery. But don't forget, charges don't cost Endurance.

 

Movements should always be bought in odd amounts. You get the +1" on the half move.

[Catacomb]

Charges are the ultimate tool of the munchkin. So are OIF...

They know it's there and yet can really do nothing about it.

[Lord Liaden]

From time to time, I review Steve Goodman's tips in the old Champions II supplement, "The Goodman School of Cost Effectiveness.";) Here's a summary of some of that sage advice:

 

"3 and 8 are very cost-effective numbers". Certain Characteristics do very well if their total ends with these numbers. DEX and INT have already been mentioned, but there are two figured Characteristics based on CON/5, so those numbers for CON give beneficial roundoffs for ED and REC;

 

"END Users Anonymous". A level of Reduced Endurance is most efficient when the Power it's applied to uses an odd number of END, so that you get the benefit of the round down;

 

"Levels--The Great Equalizer". Inexpensive way to conpensate for low DEX or long range. If your character has a lot of different Powers and Skills, Overall Levels are a great investment;

 

"The Joy of DEX". Elaborates on the point above. High DEX is most efficient if that's your main defense or if you want a high SPD, although high SPD also makes END use more of a concern. For many characters whose SPD is not that high, levels are cheaper and often more flexible;

 

"Run for your Life". Any inches of Movement that you have should end in an odd number, to take advantage of the roundoff for your half move. That extra inch can make the difference whether you reach an opponent to hit him or not;

 

"Constitution Builds Strong Bodies Five Ways". If your character has bought up two or more of ED, REC, END or STUN, consider buying up CON instead. Goodman suggests buying your CON to the point where at least one of those four Figured Char. is at the value you want.

[Catacomb]

I never thought of Con that way but it's right on the money.

[Dynamo]

Here's a method I use. It's not so munchkiny as all that, but I've been known to score a few points out of it.

 

Strongly consider your special effects. Upon reflection, limitations may suggest themselves. You could end up more satisfied that you've created a well-built power construct with believable drawbacks, and get more points to spend as well.

 

Is your laser blocked by Darkness?

Are your boot jets limited to a certain altitude ceiling?

Are your flame powers of limited utility against water-based opponents?

Is your headset radio affected by hearing-affecting powers?

Does your frost bolt chill rather than impact (no knockback)?

 

Small limitations, true. But every little bit helps when buying 50-75 AP powers.

[Castaigne]

Here are just a few of the approaches I've seen used to maximize point-effectiveness:

 

1) Load all your character's Powers with lots of Limitations, like Charges (12 is good, most combats don't last a Turn anyway), Burnout, Ablative, Gestures, Increased END (END is cheap, and END Reserves even cheaper), Restrainable, Luck Based, and so on. Also search through all the published books and the FAQ for Limitations your GM might not know about. If your GM doesn't impose Active Point caps buy a 30+ DC AOE Attack with one or two charges so you can take out the master villain on the first Phase of a battle.

 

2) Buy all your character's Characteristics with a Limitation. OIF is good if you don't think your GM will bother to take your Focus away, or OIHID if you think he might. A couple of one-turn Continuing Charges are also good (again, most combats don't last over a Turn). Only For Defense, Only Not To Be CON Stunned, and Only To Do Damage are also good if your GM doesn't say no.

 

3) Make sure your character has all the possible Defensive Powers in the rulebook at the maximum level allowed by your GM. DEX doesn't matter if no one can hurt you.

 

4) Go through the rulebook and buy powers with stopsigns and exclamation points. These usually turn out to be the most point-efficient. Desolid and Extra Dimensional Movement are a must.

 

5) Keep your character's Special Effects as general as possible. An 'Energy' EB is a lot harder to counter than a 'Fire' EB.

 

6) Put all your character's attack Powers in a Multipower with at least a dozen u-slots with different Advantages, but buy Defensive and Movement Powers outside any Framework. After you write up your character go through the book again and make sure you didn't miss any Powers or Advantages (u-slots are cheap).

 

7) Don't use any character design software or even a printed character sheet, but write out your character with a blunt pencil on a crumpled piece of paper so the GM can't read it.

[TheTemplar]

Originally posted by Castaigne

Here are just a few of the approaches I've seen used to maximize point-effectiveness:

 

1) Load all your character's Powers with lots of Limitations, like Charges (12 is good, most combats don't last a Turn anyway), Burnout, Ablative, Gestures, Increased END (END is cheap, and END Reserves even cheaper), Restrainable, Luck Based, and so on. Also search through all the published books and the FAQ for Limitations your GM might not know about. If your GM doesn't impose Active Point caps buy a 30+ DC AOE Attack with one or two charges so you can take out the master villain on the first Phase of a battle.

 

2) Buy all your character's Characteristics with a Limitation. OIF is good if you don't think your GM will bother to take your Focus away, or OIHID if you think he might. A couple of one-turn Continuing Charges are also good (again, most combats don't last over a Turn). Only For Defense, Only Not To Be CON Stunned, and Only To Do Damage are also good if your GM doesn't say no.

 

3) Make sure your character has all the possible Defensive Powers in the rulebook at the maximum level allowed by your GM. DEX doesn't matter if no one can hurt you.

 

4) Go through the rulebook and buy powers with stopsigns and exclamation points. These usually turn out to be the most point-efficient. Desolid and Extra Dimensional Movement are a must.

 

5) Keep your character's Special Effects as general as possible. An 'Energy' EB is a lot harder to counter than a 'Fire' EB.

 

6) Put all your character's attack Powers in a Multipower with at least a dozen u-slots with different Advantages, but buy Defensive and Movement Powers outside any Framework. After you write up your character go through the book again and make sure you didn't miss any Powers or Advantages (u-slots are cheap).

 

7) Don't use any character design software or even a printed character sheet, but write out your character with a blunt pencil on a crumpled piece of paper so the GM can't read it.

 

Ha! That's hilarious! Especially #7.

 

Seriously, don't get hung up on points. How many superheroes had all their powers (or knew how to use them all to maximum efficiency) right out of the box? If you're making a new character, just give him/her the base power/powers they need to fit your concept. And keep your DC's to a reasonable range. Also, keep your skill rolls in line w/ what a beginning character would have - say, 15- for 1 or 2 skills that are his/her specialty, and the rest in the 11- or 12- range. Everything can be bought up w/ experience over time, and if you keep some believable active point caps on your powers/characteristics to begin with, you'll have plenty of points to go around. Especially if you're playing 350 pt. characters to start.

 

My 2 gp.

 

-T

[Catacomb]

Yeah but if you play in a group tha is hung up on points then sometimes you have to Munchkin.

[TheTemplar]

Originally posted by Catacomb

Yeah but if you play in a group tha is hung up on points then sometimes you have to Munchkin.

 

Why? I guess I'm just lucky enough not to have been caught up in such a group, but to me, the fun of the game is being the character, not how many d6 you can blast somebody with. If you're with a group of PwrGmr's that doesn't mean you have to. Just build a character you're going to have fun playing as. Now, if PwrGmng IS fun to you, then by all means, Munchkinize away! I'm just saying, don't let the group dynamic influence what you want to do in building your character.

Now, if you find that their Powergaming/Lack of Powergaming habits make the game NOT fun for you, the I suggest finding a different group to play with, one that better meets what you're looking for in a game.

But again, all this is from a PoV of someone who has always been fortunate (IMHO) enough to be involved in campaigns where characters were more important than their sheets.

 

My 2 gp

 

-T

[William Bushway]

One of the few pieces of html that I still have up on my webspace is the Point Efficiency Checklist I compiled from posts on the Champ-L mailing list many moons ago. The advice is circa 4th edition, but most of it hasn't changed.

 

If anyone's curiousity gets the better of them, my horribly neglected Champions page can be found here.

[Guest Champsguy]

A lot of the standard points-saving advice has already been given (3's and 8's are good). A high Strength is always good. You won't go wrong with giving your Energy Blaster a 20 Str (it bumps up Stun and PD).

 

There are other tips, but those really depend on which character you're building.

 

Martial Arts have been supremely boosted in 5th Edition. They're the rape power now. Buy a Multipower with a few HEAVILY advantaged Hand Attacks (as well as some other tricks--Desolid is a good one), and then dump lots of points into Martial Art maneuvers and Damage Classes.

 

Currently, DCs from martial arts add directly to the DC of any sort of Str-based attack (and here's the important part) without pro-rating for the Advantages on the attack. Nice, huh? So your martial artist looks like this:

 

Str 25 (you want the high Str, because it gives you PD, Rec, and Stun)

50 point Multipower with:

+5D6 Hand Attack, x2 AP (you want 5D6 so that your Str can carry over--you can carry over as many D6 from Str as you do with your base HA, and you get the Advantages for free)

+5D6 HA, Double KB, 1/2 End

+5D6 HA, AE Hex. Penetrating

+10D6 Hand Attack

+5D6 NND (super-nerve touch)

(etc)

Desolid (you can abort to defensive powers, so you want something like this in case you're about to get hosed--besides, it's a useful thing to have)

"Super martial art escape move"--5" Teleport (this gets you out of grabs without rolling anything)

(etc)

 

Then you take your martial arts (Offensive Strike, Martial Strike, Nerve Strike, not Martial Escape since you've got both Desolid and the Teleport) with a few damage classes. When you throw that Double AP attack, you'll get: 5D6 from the base Hand Attack + 5D6 from your Str + 4D6 for your Offensive Strike + 2D6 from your martial art Damage Classes = 16D6, all of it double Armor Piercing! Don't forget that you can use the multiple power attack rule so you can Offensive Strike/Martial Throw combo him (define all your martial art maneuvers ahead of time so that you can string together some believable combos for several hits!) all in one attack.

 

Multiform is fun too...

[Lord Liaden]

If there was ever any doubt... Da Munchkin King is in da house!

[TheEmerged]

RE: Multiform. This power is *fun* under 5th Edition. One of my players is using it as the core power for her character: Hexadecimal! 16 highly-specialized forms.

 

Of course, Munchkin King is talking about an aspect of Multiform I house-ruled for my campaigns. I know why Steve did it, but I'd rather have my rules consistent (I'm talking about the cost change when the "form" has more points than the base; Multiform doesn't have this while every other "1 point for 5 points in something else" power/rule does).

[altamaros]

Originally posted by Shadow Stalker

Multipower is good so powers are cheaper than EC and you can adjust the effectiveness of them for different situations.

 

Even worse than Multiform : Followers.

 

One of my players attempted to come with a Pokemon-master style character :

 

40 pts :

(25) : followers : 125 base+125 disadv

(20) : x 16 followers.

 

If you give the followers mind link w/the master and XDM or/and megascale t-port only to fixed location (master) ...

 

9 x 250pts characters in one ...

 

shoot on sight.

 

Another idea of him was the "egg-head follower" :

on 75+75pts

all characteristics are normal except INT (40). it let still 120 pts to spend in INT-based skills and a HRRP or mind link : you have all the intellect skills of the game at 17- for 15 pts on your main character.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by FTJoshua

Combat skill levels are cheaper than DEX

Only 2 pointers.

 

9 points spent on DEX gets you +1 OCV, +1 DCV and saves you 3 points on your SPD, so effectively you're getting +1 CV for 3 pts. You also get +3 DEX 'for free' allowing you to go sooner in combat and giving higher skill and DEX rolls.

 

DEX is way better than skill levels unless you just want a huge OCV with one attack. I'd advocate going for a high DEX, almost always. It's just too good.

[Doug McCrae]

A lot of good posts in this thread. Castaigne's munchkin advice was particularly fine, I thought, except for his idea about buying every defence being more cost effective than DEX. I'd have said the reverse was the case.

 

A few minor additions:

1) REC is still overcosted at 2 for 1. So buy it down. Only gets you big points if you're a brick though.

2) I like OIHID with Instant Change. All your powers become 20% cheaper with no drawback whatsoever (unless you're Billy Batson...)

3) For non-bricks, EC and/or Multipower are a must. I'd put both attacks AND movement powers, though not defences, in the MP. You can half-move, switch the points in the MP, and still attack.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae

A lot of good posts in this thread. Castaigne's munchkin advice was particularly fine, I thought, except for his idea about buying every defence being more cost effective than DEX. I'd have said the reverse was the case.

 

A few minor additions:

1) REC is still overcosted at 2 for 1. So buy it down. Only gets you big points if you're a brick though.

2) I like OIHID with Instant Change. All your powers become 20% cheaper with no drawback whatsoever (unless you're Billy Batson...)

3) For non-bricks, EC and/or Multipower are a must. I'd put both attacks AND movement powers, though not defences, in the MP. You can half-move, switch the points in the MP, and still attack.

 

Most GM's will say no to that

 

HOWEVER 2 Multipowers, one of attacks and another of movements can be interesting

[altamaros]

Originally posted by Shadow Stalker

Followers are good but make sure they have powers with the advantage of useable on others with a disad on that so only the main PC can use thier powers. Or just the characters that get along with the main PC.

 

The player i told you about had a idea like this but he found that it could be very expensive to use (consumes END). he rather tried the "Gestalt" idea :

 

the followers have a MP with aid/healing/succor all BOECV & ranged and a psychic bond to the main character ...

 

Battle cry : Power me up, guys !

[zornwil]

Originally posted by TheTemplar

Why? I guess I'm just lucky enough not to have been caught up in such a group, but to me, the fun of the game is being the character, not how many d6 you can blast somebody with. If you're with a group of PwrGmr's that doesn't mean you have to. Just build a character you're going to have fun playing as. Now, if PwrGmng IS fun to you, then by all means, Munchkinize away! I'm just saying, don't let the group dynamic influence what you want to do in building your character.

Now, if you find that their Powergaming/Lack of Powergaming habits make the game NOT fun for you, the I suggest finding a different group to play with, one that better meets what you're looking for in a game.

But again, all this is from a PoV of someone who has always been fortunate (IMHO) enough to be involved in campaigns where characters were more important than their sheets.

 

My 2 gp

 

-T

 

But that's not mutually exclusive, and one thing I've seen is having a couple people in a group who excel at efficiency while others do not. So it becomes important for others to "keep up" lest their characters end up less useful. Of course the best way to do this is to have a power/collection of powers that are simply unique and interesting, but at a minimum you still don't want to be inefficient.

 

And there's nothing really wrong with effiicency. It's a natural product of a rich points-based system. Of course some of what's been posted in this thread is beyond efficiency, whether by jest or otherwise, but a lot of what's in here really is just good character creation practice.