Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

[AmadanNaBriona]

Seems like an odd combonation, eh?

Bear with me.

It starts with a little rant. I was listening to an online "radio" show called FreakNBitches and have gotten up to episode 6. Now, this is a geek interest show, and fetures segments about Porn, Fantasy books, various rants, and gaming.

D&D in particular.

Kind of jaw dropping to realize that they are just like a major segment of the gaming populace. Stuck in about the 7th grade. Talking about the problems associated with gaming with a GIRL, because her character inevitably, in every game, sooner or later gets raped, has to deal with STD's and pregnancy, and generally gets crap dumped on her that, were it done to one of her fellow players characters would cause them to forsake gaming forever and take up a life of chess and sociopathy.

So... after having her half sprite druidess get raped and impregnated by someone big enough for the child to be fatal, she decides that her next character is going to be a she-hulk half orc barbarian, who uses her wounded foes for her pleasure. Thus showing, that tho revenge is sweet, woman gamers are alas not immune to doing the exact same stupid shit that male gamers do.

 

Hearing this got me thinking. First, my brain detoured for a moment, thought

 

*hmmm... half sprite... in distress...Redneck Treeman takes revenge*

 

(see http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp05042002.shtml for explanation)

then got on track with thinking about my gaming past. All in all, I have probably been pretty lucky.

I got most of my juvenile gaming tendencies out back when I was, oh, 10 or 11, and by 12 I had joined a gaming based Explorer troop... which also contained girls. So I and my gaming buddies all got used to having female players around right from early on.

It let us get past the "Uh, UH, UH!!!... There are, like, uh, real BREASTS in the room. CAN'T ... MAKE ... BRAIN ... WORK" stage pretty quickly and painlessly. It also introduced us to older gamers in the area, up to college age and a few beyond, and to almost every known system.

I played my first Champions game in 1982, and still have my playtesters edition of FH around here somewhere (I'm also lucky that the original HG office was 11 miles from my house, so there were a lot of hero fans in the area). It also led to my first retail job, in the local gamestore, natch... the assistant manager was my Runequest GM.

So there were women in our gaming group from a very early age, and we had guidance from our more experienced peers. One nice side effect was that it killed most of the guys unnatural but common gaming urges to play scantily clad nymphomaniac female characters. Something about having real girls looking at you like you are a dead guppy for making such a shallow sterotyped depiction of their sex. And then not being able to play it well.

If the girls want to play that way...at least they have the right gender mindset. My GF all through HS and early college was a regular part of our group, just as much of a genre fiend as the rest of us, and specialized in playing very useful damsels in distress.

Adult themes, thus were never really a problem in our games... if it fit the genre, we used them. If it didn't, we didn't.

That got me thinking about various fictional books, and how they handle such themes, and if they do it well. Raven, Swordsmistress of Chaos (can't recall the author), John Normans Gor, and a few other books, as well as Heavy Metal magazine convinced me that there is a Juvenille Sex Fantasy genre.

The Sword of Truth series, by Terry Goodkind and The Kushiel trilogy by Jaqueline Carey show just as plainly that adult topics can have their place.

Most fantasies fall between, with a lot of the more adult action happening off scene, or handled tactfully.

It so happens that my friends, generally belonging to the RenFaire/Goth/Theater/LARP/Vampire/kinky/poly/pagan crowd tend to enjoy adult themes, and so, consequently, I began working on a setting with a very dark, very grim, and very adult overtone.

Then I moved to the mountains, and had no friends within 3 hours who gamed. And so seriously went to work on my campaign setting, lest I go mad. And I toiled for a couple of years, finally had a group of player assembled (I had found an old roomate in the area, and there was a group he played with). Joined their 3rd Ed D&D game, to get to know the players and learn a bit about the new rules (which do not suck as bad as I expected), started to fire up my campaign and...

Suddenly moved again. To Fresno. Ugh.

Got a new girlfriend, moved in with a friend. He was a gamer. She was not. The first non gamer I'd ever dated. I spent a long time talking to her, and she eventually became interested in trying it. And guess what. Right back to the beginning of this rant. Diehard Paladium system fanatics. Utterly stuck at 7th grade gamer mode. Characters having sex with each other to escape the tedium of the game, and of course dealing with the ubiquitous Pregnacy check, STD check, and Quality of Sex Check (I'm, alas, not joking). We rather quickly decided that having real sex was less aggrevating, and stopped playing. Eventually moved, back to the Bay Area, and found, eventually, new friends we WANT to game with. And my lass is willing to try again. So here we go.

This has turned into a rant, so i'm going to change my intended title. Then I'll post a villan race with its place in my dark adult themed game, its uses (as a plot device and antagonist) and explanations my thinking, probably in a seperate thread with a mention of this rant.

So, after all that...

What are other peoples thoughts on the matter?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

Do I live a charmed gaming career?

 

How have I dodged the freaks?

 

(where's a smirking smiley when you need one?)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

At the risk of sounding like the classic old dude (damn, I'm only 35)

White Wolf and LARP really radically increased the number of female gamers, or at least brought them further out into the open and forced more of the rest of the gaming community to have to deal with real life.

I remember going to cons in the 80's where as little as 1% of the con population was female. And they usually reveled in the attention (I know my GF did)

 

And there was always the one girl with the smoking body in the chain mail bikini whos sole purpose in life was to leave chaos and madness in her wake.

[Curufea]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

As soon as the general populace realised that roleplaying was more than just wargaming and wish fulfilment for the unconfident - and could actually have character development, plot, relationships and real roleplaying, it started to appeal to more than just the niche teenfanboy market.

 

However - I've never come across a female player who has had her characters treated in this fashion. I wonder about the people who do. One of the female players I know does have a tendency to play male characters, but other than that there is really no difference in sex and roleplaying.

 

As to adult themes - I'm all for them. If you have gratuitous violence, why not gratuitious adultery, martyrdom, drug addiction, torture and all those other tragedies that build character? Roleplaying games need not be exactly like video games.

[CourtFool]

keyes bill is the unfulfilling

 

As soon as the general populace realised that roleplaying was more than just wargaming and wish fulfilment for the unconfident

What?! That's it! I quit!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

Wow. Uhm. Hmmm. I'm not really sure I want to touch this one, because regardless of how I approach it, it's sure to give the wrong impression to somebody.

 

Okay. First, you've got to know your audience (players). If they're okay with, or even want, adult themes -- go for it. But don't try and foist it off on those who aren't ready for them or don't want them. And if you've got both kinds in your gaming group, it's best not to use them at all.

 

Adult themes have occured in games I've run; rape has happened in games I've run, and to both genders, though it's by no means a common occurance. In 24 years of GMing, I can count the number of times on one hand, and that's counting the rape-in-the-background-history-of-an-NPC that didn't happen "in game". (And just FYI, it was a male NPC.)

 

In each case where it's come up, the player in question has (a) not had a problem with it, ( agreed that given the circumstances / villain in question, it was "reasonable" and © been given an opportunity for the character to get revenge or otherwise deal with the rapist. I've never had a player complain when it happened to their character, and I've never had a player quit the group or otherwise show non-verbal disapproval.

 

In each case, I knew the players for several years before the situation came up...so I felt reasonably confident they wouldn't take offense, though I watched carefully for any signs it was a forbidden topic -- and I didn't get them.

 

I know that view/attitude may not be popular. I know it may change some opinions about me. Heck, I've nearly erased this response a half-dozen times while writing it because "common sense" tells me to. In the end, though, I decided not to, because a serious question was asked and if I'm going to give an answer at all, it's going to be a serious answer.

 

One last bit of advice; I said it above, but it's well worth repeating: Know your players before using any 'adult' themes.

[Guest joen00b]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

For me, gaming is an escape from the real world. I can have sex in the real world, but I can't go toe to toe with an Ogre. I find those people that do put these elements into their game are doing so as a substitute to the real thing.

 

The real problem I find with gamers and them not getting laid comes down to what you had said about the unreal perception they have of women. I don't know why, but they consider anything under Playboy Playmate status beneath them and their time or something, and when a beautiful woman is presented, they have no idea what to do or say.

 

They've effectively retarded their sexual growth with their unrealistic views at sex and the female form. Since they are unable to express their desires in the real world, they go out of their way to portray this, in the most debased forms imaginable, and one that delves deep into the realms of control over another being. Their sexual identity is deeply flawed and can't even be roleplayed in a healthy manner. Were they to actually have a relationship, they wouldn't be able to handle the complexity and uniqueness of the relationship due to their gutteral sense of sexuality.

 

The fact they must perform a rape style setting on all women within the game really shows a depravity that may be borderline psychotic. Not to say they would enact this in the real world, but shows they really can't be trusted around women. These are the types of people that use alcohol as a panacea for getting laid. Completely despicable.

 

To take matters to the sublime, these men are usually hygenically questionable (to put it nicely) and human representation of Playdoh, yet they will berate one another for attempting to have sexual relations with someone less than Playmate status, and even verbally harangue them in front of the woman. Granted, it doesn't take an Adonis of the physical form to attract a beautiful woman, and vice versa for women to men, but it definitely makes it easier. These men you speak of are very lowly creatures, and it's almost sad to even speak of them, because they are sad themselves.

 

I'm glad I've only had to deal with this situation once, and I was 14, and even then I found it rather absurd and very uncomfortable to be around, so I never gamed with them again. They were all in their late 20's and invited an older brother of a gaming friend, who brought us along. They were all overweight, pot smoking gamers and the one woman of the gaming group (from what I could gather) was like community property between the guy gamers. It was a very emotionally unhealthy household and a very uncomfortable situation. Their in games antics pretty much took a back seat to the undertones of their living arrangements, but seemed to manifest itself in and out of the game.

 

I am seriously thankful to have had sexually and emotionally mature people in my games.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

The whole idea of "adult themes" seems like a misnomer to me. Given the reactions you described above (in-game rapes, pregnancies, scantily-clad nymphomaniacs, etc.), it sounds to me like you've had the misfortune of being in games weighed down with juvenile themes. In other words, you generally haven't been able to explore adult themes in gaming, because your socially-stunted nitwit players have dragged them down to the level of junior high toilet humor.

 

So here's what I'd suggest. Lay all this out for the new group, and explain the issues you've encountered in the past. Make it crystal clear that if adult themes are introduced, you expect the players to deal with them in an adult manner, with none of the sophomoric crap some basement-crawling-mommy-sugar-gamers insist on pulling whenever females are involved in the game. Make it equally clear that if they don't think they can refrain from that, you will not use adult themes. And that if they claim they will avoid the nonsense, and later do it anyway, you will throw the offending players the hell out as soon as they do it, even if it means ending the campaign.

 

You can't predict or control how other people will react, but you can definitely make it clear to them how you will react.

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

I agree with Dr. Anomaly - be careful. Be sure that your players are okay with such 'adult themes' before you introduce them. I actually had that problem once - a non-graphic scene involving a female character and an incubus - and got the character's player quite upset with me. I apologised profusely, as had I known it would have bothered her at all I would have never done it, but it serves to show that it be important to know what your players find acceptable.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

Yeah... my new group of players have been fairly cautiously handpicked for their intelligence and maturity. Not to mention that they are all members of the SF Bay Area Kink scene. For some reason, people who spend their leisure time with bondage, discipline, domination, submission, sadism, and masocism are a lot less titilated by simple adult situations and are easily provoked into the kind of reponces I want when faced with certain kinds of villans.

 

It goes back to the time when I left gaming for a while...

When you're doing something in real life, suddenly sitting around your house talking about doing it seems less enthralling

(In my case, it was swordfighting, drinking and wenching. FAR more entertaining in real life. Many years of roleplaying gave me insights to how to "play" a larger than life heroic "character" that allowed me to make myself infamous in a fairly short timespan)

[Koshka]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

The whole idea of "adult themes" seems like a misnomer to me. Given the reactions you described above (in-game rapes' date=' pregnancies, scantily-clad nymphomaniacs, etc.), it sounds to me like you've had the misfortune of being in games weighed down with [i']juvenile[/i] themes. In other words, you generally haven't been able to explore adult themes in gaming, because your socially-stunted nitwit players have dragged them down to the level of junior high toilet humor.

 

Repped.

 

I am a female gamer, and I can say I haven't had anyone rape my character in game -- but that's because I'm selective about who I play with. If my current GM developed temporary insanity and tried that, his wife would take him apart, and I'm not entirely certain it would just be verbally. As far as the other players go, anyone who tried an inter-party rape would no longer be part of the group.

 

On the other hand, when I joined my first RPG (1st edition AD&D), the GM's city guards immediately became obsessed with doing strip searches .... That game might have gotten icky; the GM's buddies tended to look on the rest of the party as walking XP/treasure reserves to be killed as needed, but had they been into more sexual forms of dominance, who knows? I left before I could have found out (and am just as glad).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

To be fair, most of my players have been all good over the years. It's only been when I've ventured further into the wide world of gaming that I've encountered issues with players. Between Cons, working at 3 different Gaming Stores over the years, the Explorer post I mentioned, and moving around a lot I've gotten to encounter a wide cross section sample of gamers. Mine have usually been pretty good. I think that my old hardcore gaming group spoiled me, so when I really delved back into the hobby, I was inclined to trust the maturity of gamers and thus was often left aghast that not everyone was as "evolved" in their gaming style as the folk I was used to.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

For me its a maturity question. There is nothiing wrong with some sexual energy in a rpg story, I have seen it work before in a Vampire campaign. But in that case things never really went beyond suggestion and longing. The sort of thing the original poster is talking about is junior high nonsense and lousy storytelling. It generally comes from people whose already limited social skills turn totally to dust when a real live GIRL (ohmygodohmygod) is actually at a game.

 

Just game with people who are more interested in telling a good story. I know that that is about 428 to the 11th power times easier to say than to do sometimes, but select your group carefully. If a group is full of wingnuts, drop out. If you invite someone to your group and they turn out to be a terrible match, have a mature conversation with them and find some other activity to do with them at anther time. (Presumably you liked the person at least somewhat if you invited them to game.) And if a normally reasonable player suddenly starts freaking out on you and thinking with something other than his gray matter, call a short time out and talk it over with people. A good GM is flexable, but should put the breaks on anytime someone derails the game or is destroying the positive experience of another player.

[nexus]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

Speaking as a gm who has, does and will use sexual and adult themes in a game I advise caution. With anything, its a matter of understanding your and others limits and tolerances. I mostly do PBEM currently and in that medium its easier to go further into "private" scenes than I would in Face to face. Mainly because it seems more like cooperative story writing than gaming. I'm also not going to lie and say I haven't found some of the erotic scenes I've co authored tittilating. That is kind of the point. If you're not enjoying the scene on some level, be it combat or a sex scene why are you bothering to detail it?

 

But that doesn't mean I go that far with every group, every time and any time. You have to know what the players wants and what you want out of the particular scene. Some romantic moments are best left unstated. Constant graphic sex without story is frankly, empty and boring. I don't subject PCs of any gender to unwanted sexuality. Rape has come up, but I try to handle it maturely (its something that happens in the real world, in a gaming enviornment its optional at best). I think sexuality should be handled with care and maturity but not "special" treatment as such since most people are perfectly willing to handle torture, brutality, mass murder and gruesome death constantly in rpgs.

 

Edit: and just to assure the smug, I have had sex in real life. I can seperate fantasy from reality and I don't base my expectations of relationships and the opposite gender of in game fantasies no more than I believe because I've played a great fighter in game that I could take Tyson.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

Good for you.

[Agent 13]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

Isn't this the point where someone mentions the "Creepiest Gamer" thread over at RPGnet?

[Curufea]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

I'm usually the creepiest gamer

Which is odd - just because I like Hellraiser and Lovecraft. I've never actually tortured or graphically described killing something - but they all have this fear that I might describe it one day and make them all sick.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

With the discussions going on in the "Vilest Book" thread and the "Person of Steel, S/O of Kleenex" thread, I thought it might be time to perform a wee touch of thread necromancy on one of my old topics that never really took off.

 

So... how do you address adult themes in your games? And how do you deal with inappropriate ones among your players.

[War Cry]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

My methods are pretty much the same as those previously posted. With my old group, there was no fear when an adult theme came up. We all knew and trusted each other, and in fact, rather enjoyed the whole vengeance angle that usually followed. There is very little that is more satisfying than taking down someone despicable who has wronged you. Though in the 15+ years of gaming, I can count such intances on one hand.

Dealing with it when it is inappropiate is simple for me at least. Recently, I became involved in a group and during the very first session one PC raped another PC. To say I was pissed was an understatement. The chaos that followed left all but 2 characters dead. After the game (which immediately ended after the bloodshed) I expressed my disapproval to the gm and players involved. I got apologies from all involved except the little turd who started the mess. By a cruel stroke of fate, the mantle of GM passed to me. Take a wild guess as to who isn't gaming with us anymore.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

Sounds kinda familiar....

 

One WoD game I was involved in back in my college days was run by an Anarchist friend of mine... my buddy and I joined somewhat late. It started out as a Sabat game, first this group of players had ever played. They went berserk playing out the "Woot! We're badA$$ vampires that don't hafta follow rules!" fantasies they'd always wanted to indulge. Rape, murder, and general mayhem to a degree that it sickend ME, which is a neat trick sometimes. My friend and I both came in with VERY unusual characters... he was a mummy, and I was a repentant Yakuza assassin (loosely based on Chow Yun Fats character from The Killer).

Honoring my contrat meant dealing with these fools till the job was done.

The rest of the group was absolutely slackjawed with suprise when, at the sucessful conclusion of the story arc, and subsiquently the fufilment of my giri, we proceeded to execute the lot of them as they triumphantly prepared to return to their lair.

 

Got the "Dudes? Like why did you do that...we're on the same team?" treatment.

My reply?

"The same honor that required me to work with you requires me to kill you. You're a bunch of rabid animals"

 

Just remembered that

[ThothAmon]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

Seems like an odd combonation, eh?

Bear with me.

SNIPPED

...generally gets crap dumped on her that, were it done to one of her fellow players characters would cause them to forsake gaming forever and take up a life of chess and sociopathy.

 

Way back in the day I made GM saves/checks for STDs for male seducer types. Not only did it make the munchkin players think (changing their attitude) but the plot leverage on such arrogant D&D players was great: "sure the healer can cure your pox but first she has a job she wants you to tackle..."

 

I might be lucky in that my first gaming group included a female and we never really suffered from the geek-freak problems you describe. The problems we had were slightly different.

 

Our gaming group has included PCs who have married NPCs and had children. in one particular case the male player (who is generally unlucky in love in r/l) lived out his desire to settle down, raise a family etc. The fact that female players are there only adds to the fun.

 

...thus were never really a problem in our games... if it fit the genre, we used them. If it didn't, we didn't.

That got me thinking about various fictional books, and how they handle such themes, and if they do it well. Raven, Swordsmistress of Chaos (can't recall the author), John Normans Gor, and a few other books, as well as Heavy Metal magazine convinced me that there is a Juvenille Sex Fantasy genre.

The Sword of Truth series, by Terry Goodkind and The Kushiel trilogy by Jaqueline Carey show just as plainly that adult topics can have their place.

Most fantasies fall between, with a lot of the more adult action happening off scene, or handled tactfully.

 

'Adult themes' can add a lot to the gaming experience. Note the deliberate use of quotes there. Confrontation of issues such as sex can be emotionally powerful and really up the ante. Let me cite a classic D&D example, again from way back in the day. Orcs seem to breed fast (they certainly die in their dozens so they must breed quickly) but you rarely see female orcs. Why? because it is a matriarchal society, the males fight and the females rule the roost. So, when a bunch of D&D killers invades the orcs lair and gets overrun, they aren't killed or tortured - the male PCs are taken to provide breeding stock - turns the fantasy sex convention on it's head.

 

As for fantasy (or SF or other genre fiction for that matter) it's pretty much a case of 'what you see is what you get'. Are you really surprised that some authors (male and female) cater to those seeking Sex / Fantasy?

 

BTW I love the John Norman dig

 

This has turned into a rant, so i'm going to change my intended title. Then I'll post a villan race with its place in my dark adult themed game, its uses (as a plot device and antagonist) and explanations my thinking, probably in a seperate thread with a mention of this rant.

So, after all that...

What are other peoples thoughts on the matter?

 

I have pretty much always had an alt-lifestyle group so the munchkin attitude is absent. Sexual contexts are always there to be exploited.

 

My thought is generally that a GM should take the time to psychologically assess the players and their needs (in the gaming context). If you have an unsuitable player then bite the bullet - tell him (it's 99% certain it's a him) to wise up, give him the chance to do so and if he can't simply remove him from the group. The gaming experience is a cooperative experience and there's no point in having the group disrupted by one player. I won't ask people to turn up to game unless I'm sure that they can all get something from it.

 

In my experience good player groups are self-policing. They get to know the limits that a GM will set/allow and they can and do caution each other regards acceptable behaviour. Those inter-player bonds are important and can really make for good gaming.

 

Don't tackle adult themes (not just sex but politics, abortion, human rights et al) unless your players are capable - a while back I had one player who was a fundamentalist Christian who could handle the idea of magic and demons but couldn't take the sexual aspects of the genre we were playing and had serious issues with some of the sociopolitics of the world. The latter caught me out and derailed the gaming session.

 

Always learn from mistakes and don't shy away from confonting players with the consequences of their actions.

[Jkeown]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

My games pretty much run like movies. Or Phil & Dixie strips... Hints... suggestions... no "action" to speak of. It works.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

I had a female player create a character in my play by post who was a prostitute. The character now desires now to go out into the world adventuring. I had a discussion with the player out of character and we decided to introduce Tantric magic into the game. It has actually gone very well with the game and the player greatly enjoys it.

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

Do I live a charmed gaming career?

 

How have I dodged the freaks?

 

(where's a smirking smiley when you need one?)

You must live a charmed life...as far as the gaming career goes.

 

In my over 30 of gaming, what I've experienced can be summed up in one statement...

 

"Too many FREEKS, and not enough CIRCUSES!!!"

[Stormspace]

Re: Adult themes in gaming, a rant of sorts

 

For me the fun in a fantasy setting is the Heroic Fantasy part, not the erotic Fantasy. In most cases the plot moves forward based on the actions of the PC's and the opposing villains. To have an NPC somehow violate the PC in that type of manner to me does nothing to move the game along and in most cases causes resentment with the player regardless of maturity. Sure, if the players know up front that these situations might happen, then at least they had the chance to back out of the game, but it's easiest to just not approach it at all.

 

In my games conflicts tend to be politically motivated, with the end result that one group wants another to go away and it becomes quite involved. Behind the scenes machinations, intrigue, and the occasional combat such that the game becomes one of discovery.

 

I have had one or two players join my game thinking that they would just start playing and begin the seduction, only to be rebuffed by the other players before I could get to it. Even so extended bedroom antics hardly move the game along.