Steve Long Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 I was thinking the other day how much I enjoy Andrew Vachss's novels as Dark Champions inspiration, and I figured it might be helpful to start a thread about what y'all find inspirational for the genre. So, leaving aside the obvious (technothrillers by the likes of Clancy and Bond, spy thrillers by the likes of Fleming, LeCarre, and Ludlum, mysteries by all sorts of people), what sort of novels, short stories, etc. have y'all found good as Dark Champions inspiration or source material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Vachss.......ohhhhhhh......seriously disturbed books. Do you really need anything else for totally whacked, deranged, freaky, - sex filled books of murder, drugs, and violence? I always wanted to write up Max the Silent, Pansy, and Moma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted February 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading No, I suppose you really don't. Vachss definitely has a gift for showing the seamy side of things. His later works are a bit repetitive, but even they have lots of useful ideas and inspirational passages. I recently read a book called Run, by Douglas Winter; my friend Paul Tucker loaned it to me when I was in the UK. It wasn't Vachss-level good, but it was an interesting story about a bunch of gun-runners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beetle Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading While the novels themselves don't have a Dark Champions feel, I always thought the premise of John D. MacDonald's "Travis McGee" books would be great in Dark Champions. Basically, if somebody takes what's yours (illegally or immorally) and you have no hope of getting it back you can hire Trav (or the PC in a DC campaign) and he'll try to recover the money/property/whatever, but he keeps 50% of anything he recovers (getting half back is better than getting nothing back, right?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading I'm not sure how to reply to this by "leaving aside" every other mystery or thriller by "other people"... so I'll ignore that and give props to my favorite authors that inspire my Danger International style games. Thomas Perry... been reading him since Butcher's Boy... enjoying both his intricate stand alone novels with quirky characters, as well as his Jane Whitefield novels. You want an original character with some dramatic situations and a wealth of detail on investigative procedures, identity theft, how to "hide" in the real world... stalking and taling and surveillaince... plus deep understanding of certain native american culture... great books. Elvis Cole novels by Robert Crais... ultimate tough guy detective with even tougher partner... which put the Spenser novels to shame. A couple good stand alone novels... one of which is coming out as a Bruce Willis movie soon... Hostage. Almost any movie by Michael Mann. Heat and Collateral are by far two of my favorite movies EVER. Australian author, Peter Temple. First novel published in the US came out about six months ago... a hard boiled, hard edged political/info thriller... Identity Theory is a brilliant work. His other novels are really hard to get, outside of Australia. Speaking of authors from down under... Garry Disher and the six (seven?) Wyatt novels. Hard boiled crime novels that are excellent examples of the stark feel of the professional criminal. I used to read all fo Vaachs work... have first editions of most of his early novels... but he seemed more interested in almost comic book like characters and "clever" gimicks, rather than real characterization and more human drama. I got sick of his lecturing about the horrors of abuse. His Dark Horse "Hard Time" comic was much better, IMO. (Is that the right title?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading One big source of fictional inspiration for Dark Champions for me has always been the Wild Cards books, edited by George R. R. Martin. As far as I know, the series started as a game (I want to say Superworld by Chaosium) among a group of sci-fi/fantasy authors. Quite a bit more "superpowered" than most dark champs campaigns, but a wonderful look at how supers could change the development of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSweeney Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading I have recently motored my way through Hardcase and Hard Freeze by Dan Simmons. They are short and pulpy...nothing at all like the Hyperion books. Joe Kurtz is one tough mother. I read alot of the Burke stories a few years ago and kind of lost interest. The best line in them though was about Max the Silent...something about him being a "life-taking widow-making silent wind of death." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susandwyer Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Vachss.......ohhhhhhh......seriously disturbed books. Do you really need anything else for totally whacked, deranged, freaky, - sex filled books of murder, drugs, and violence? I always wanted to write up Max the Silent, Pansy, and Moma. Wha? Who? That sonds like my kinda book! More details please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citizen Keen Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading I'm doing my thesis on Raymond Chandler, so he's helped from an aesthetic perspective. From an "inspiring super-skills" perspective, I'm definitely sold by Aeon Flux. I really want to make a character with +10 DEX (Only For Manipulation with Tongue, -2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Wha? Who? That sonds like my kinda book! More details please! Andrew Vachss Front Cover Quote: Has been a federal investigator in sexually transmitted diseases, a social case worker, and a labor orginizer, and had directed a maximum security prison for youthful offenders. Now a lawyer in private practice, he represents children and youth exclusively. The man has walked on the wrong side of the fence and tells horrific stories of crime, violence, deviant sex, and drugs in a style that I have not found elsewhere. Sometimes his books make me sick but they enthrall none the less. The main character is Burke - the lesser of all the other villains. Burke is a PI with a very small soft spot that often drags him into sordid crimes. He has some writing up at http://www.vachss.com, personally you can get a feel for him by reading this scarey as hell speech he gave in 82 Andrew Vachss Speech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted February 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Eosin's given a pretty good summary; I'll add a few details. Burke isn't exactly a PI, though he sometimes pretends to be one and does sometimes take on quasi-investigative work for people. What he really is, is a thief and a scam artist. He's not particularly a nice person, and spends most of his life on the other side of the fence. But he has a genuine soft spot in his heart for abused children (having been one himself), and often gets involved in situations to rescue or help them even though there's not necessarily much money in it for him. Burke has a family of loyal friends and companions who he can turn to for help and support. These include Pansy (his supremely-trained Neapolitan mastiff), Max the Silent (an utterly deadly deaf-mute martial artist), Mama (an old Chinese woman who's skilled at all sorts of scams and crimes, primarily things like smuggling), the Prof (a street-smart little black man he met in prison who taught him how to be a smart criminal rather than a gunslinger), the Mole (a Nazi-hating technical genius), and Michelle (a transvestite prostitute, eventually a transgendered non-prostitute as the series progresses). The Burke novels are stark, blunt, and disturbing -- often even horrifying. They're all the more unsettling for the fact that the things Burke witnesses are things that Vachss himself has seen or dealt with: people, especially children, being used, abused, and exploited in ways that are likely to make you shudder and weep. The person who introduced me to the Burke novels described them as "little slices of Streetwise," and that's not a bad shorthand way of putting it. Some of the information in them is out of date now, and the series degrades a bit as it progresses, but even the later books still draw you in. For game purposes, they're chock-full of ideas for NPCs, plots, and other good Dark Champions stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Caveat: I always include occult ellements in Dark Champions. Clive Barker. Dark Champions, cults, and occult horror are made for each-other. Tons of 70s Sci-Fi is good for this, especially Farmer. The Destroyer Novels. Yes, lots of comic elements, but that (ime) helps the campaign. Great villains, great examples of how to use current events in a campaign, very good way to keep the players adventuring. "Your death has been faked and you have been recruited by a government agency that does not exit. Your mission: Save the world." It's classic. Early Jackie Chan films, especially his Police Story movies. Ignore the Hollywood crap he puts out; in his prime, his action films were incredible. Hong Kong Cinema in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susandwyer Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Okay Steve and Eosin, you've sold me. I've always liked books on "the darker side" (drives Keith "Mr. Goody Two Shoes" Curtis crazy!). Should I start with the Burke series? I looked up the link and it looks very interesting! Now as not to derail this thread into book recommendations for me, Jim Butcher wrote a trilogy (actually 3 books!) called "The Dresden Files". It's a modern day world of Supernatural. Quite funny in parts! The main character is a wizardy, PI, computer geek. I named my external hard drive "Bob" ofter a character in these books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrea Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Not a big fan of the genre but I'd like to give my suggestion: 1) Dashiel Hammet: The Red Harvest. Ok not techno...but a marvelous gritty book about betrayal and courage 2) Tim Powers: Declare If you like the idea to mix Follet, Clancy and Lovecraf this is your book, definitely !! 3) Alistair McLean Any book by this master ( except the one set in WWII) make a fantastic read about spies and larger than life threats. Maybe with a bit of retrò feeling ( ahh those beautiful cold war days...) I'll try to find something else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Ronin Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading I rather enjoy (and draw stuff from) Laura Joh Rowland's books about Sano Ichiro. They are detective/mystery stories set in 17th-century Japan. So far, I've only read the first two in the series: Shinju, about a twin suicide, and Bundori, involving a serial killer that decapitates and mounts the victim's heads as trophies. Good stuff. The Unknown Ronin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altamaros Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading I would suggest Maurice G. Dantec. I don't know if some of his books are available in english but his trilogy is worth it : The Red Siren, Roots of Evil and Babylon Babies the first two are regular thrillers and the third is sci-fi thriller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard00 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Now as not to derail this thread into book recommendations for me' date=' Jim Butcher wrote a trilogy (actually 3 books!) called "The Dresden Files". It's a modern day world of Supernatural. Quite funny in parts! The main character is a wizardy, PI, computer geek. I named my external hard drive "Bob" ofter a character in these books.[/quote'] Actually, there are six Dresden books currently available, the seventh due in May (I think). Definitely good for a "Dark Mystic Champions" style game, and easily adaptable to plain ol' DC. (also soon to be an RPG) Also, not to take anything away from your post, but Dresden isn't a computer geek. Quite the opposite, actually, since he can't really be around complex electronics (he doesn't even have electricity in his home). Something about magic tends to short out electronics, and he's not even allowed near Murphy's computer anymore. But yeah, highly recommended. I'll add John Ridley's "Those Who Walk In Darkness" to the list, too. A dark look at the life of a cop in a world of super-powered beings. It has some pretty cool ideas. James Rollins wrote some good stuff that could be adaptable to DC, though I actually envision a low-powered supers or even pulp adventure from them. "Subterranean" and "Excavation" are the two I've read, and I have two more to work on. I think Dan Brown's "Angels & Demons" and the more popular "Da Vinci Code" are excellent examples of a good mystery campaign. Easily adaptable to DC, with great movement and use of historical and accurate figures, events, artifacts. Great reads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading I'm not a huge fan of DC, but I do read a lot, and have read some stuff that bears mentioning here, and I am sucker for threads talking about books. Random Factor - Tannenbaum and Laruso. Written in the 70s, and it is one of the first "profiers" books I know of, and the concept that the killer was killing not out of revenge, spite or malice, but because the target fits some criteria was groundbreaking then - if you are going to run a period piece, this book has lots of great color for how people would react to the concept. It's also a fun read, but after 30 years it is sort of "quaint" now. Mind Hunter - Douglas, the autobio of the man who pretty much invented the FBI profiling division. Loved it. Sort of Cyber and Ninja Hero too but very much a street world - the Aubry Knight books by Stephen Barnes (Streetlethal, Gorgon Child and Firedance). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted February 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Should I start with the Burke series? That would be a good approach, though Vachss has two good books of short stories (Born Bad and Everybody Pays) and a couple of non-Burke novels that are also enjoyable. Your best bet is to read the novels in sequence, since later ones refer to the events of earlier ones from time to time. That means starting with (in order) Flood, Strega, and then Blue Belle. That should give you a good feel for Vachss's work and let you know whether you're interested in continuing with it. You're also more likely to find the earlier novels in used book stores and libraries, so trying them out is less expensive if it turns out you don't care for Vachss's style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Okay Steve and Eosin, you've sold me. I've always liked books on "the darker side" (drives Keith "Mr. Goody Two Shoes" Curtis crazy!). Should I start with the Burke series? I looked up the link and it looks very interesting! Now as not to derail this thread into book recommendations for me, Jim Butcher wrote a trilogy (actually 3 books!) called "The Dresden Files". It's a modern day world of Supernatural. Quite funny in parts! The main character is a wizardy, PI, computer geek. I named my external hard drive "Bob" ofter a character in these books. Don't know if you care... but my big issue with Vachss (and I've read most of his stuff) is that after a while you realize he is fetishizing abuse. It's not as much something to be fought and exposed as something dark and seductive to be obsessed about. Flood, Strega, Blue Belle... all strong, hyper-sexual women who are totally formed by the abuse they suffered. They become fetish objects, each one less and less a character and a personality, as the books go on. Their power comes from their abused childhoods... and almost seems to be a desired state. Could just be me, but continuous graphic descriptions of kiddie porn and sexual abuse aren't necessary to convey the horror of the situation, and instead start to conjure images of a sicko author who is getting off on the lurid detail he is writing. The subject matter doesn't bother me as much as the seeming relish Vachss takes in portraying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading I'd like to throw in "Motherless Brooklyn," by Jonathan Lethem. The protagonist is one of the quirkiest characters around (and may have inspired TV's "Monk") in that he has Tourette's, but the feel of the novel remains gritty and dark. Plus, it all takes place in my 'hood. A quality read--and might get you thinking about disads in a whole new way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susandwyer Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Actually, there are six Dresden books currently available, the seventh due in May (I think). Definitely good for a "Dark Mystic Champions" style game, and easily adaptable to plain ol' DC. (also soon to be an RPG) Also, not to take anything away from your post, but Dresden isn't a computer geek. Quite the opposite, actually, since he can't really be around complex electronics (he doesn't even have electricity in his home). Something about magic tends to short out electronics, and he's not even allowed near Murphy's computer anymore.. You're right of course, I had forgotten as I read them some time ago. And there goes my actual trilogy theory too. For any women GM's, try Laurel K. Hamilton. The stories were really good at the beginning of the series and at the end you get nothing but incredibly kinky sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacBean Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading Elvis Cole novels by Robert Crais... ultimate tough guy detective with even tougher partner... which put the Spenser novels to shame. A couple good stand alone novels... one of which is coming out as a Bruce Willis movie soon... Hostage. Bruce Willis? as Elvis Cole? maybe 10 years ago but I don't see it now. Aside from that the books are great. He doesn't have that many that aren't Cole and Pike but Demolition Angel is also pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading No... Bruce is not Elvis Cole... (thought Elvis and Joe Pike were in Vietnam around '75-'76 according to the books, so Bruce is actually close to the age Joe Pike should be by now)... Willis plays a small town sherrif north of LA, who gets swept up in this rather neat crime intrigue that starts when a couple of "born to lose" punks on the run from the cops break into a house in a very upscale suburb to hide and take hostages... it only gets much, much worse from there. Good book. You should try it, if you like Crais' style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacBean Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 Re: Inspirational Reading whew. thats a relief. I was confusing Hostage with The Last Detective in which Ben gets kidnapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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