Help with balancing fighters with magic users

[hypnotica]

I would like some assistance please. In this game that my GM is running ( I was hoping for some good feedback that I can run by him)THis is the first RPG that my GM has been running and he s been running this about a year off and on. Of course its fantasy based thats why I'm posting it here. He feels that the game is unfair to fighters that a ka cost 15 points per 1d6 but that the magic users can bring those down by adding a bunch of limitations that the fighters can't use. So he has done something that just feels wrong somehow to me. If the fighters want to increase the d6 of their damage they can buy extra ka but (since he doesn't want it to be magical just to show the fighters increased expertise with that particular weapon) he has put some limitations only the use of that particular weapon if it should break or he lose it that would be awful for the fighter. I hope that you can give me some really good ideas to swing by him on how he can both lower the cost (without it seeming magical) for the fighters that dont use magic and different limitations that he can use for the same that dont necessarily have to be used on a particular weapon. I know there are other ways that you can decrease the cost of a ka without it being magical for the fighter but im not being persuasive enough. I know its all up to the gm how he wants to run his game and im ok with that but I would like to show him there are other things he can do to get the same results. BTW no power frame works allowed at all in the game (not now anyway due to power gamers playing in the past) If you need more input from him let me know and I'll get the specifics I appreciate all the input i can get

[GamePhil]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Typically, Fantasy HERO warriors don't actually need to pay for weapons or armor. Normal equipment is free, only magical equipment needs to be bought. Is that how you're playing it?

 

Is your GM allowing fighters to use Combat Skill Levels to increase damage? That can provide quite a bit of flexibility.

 

Fantasy HERO has some new Talents for warrior-types, including Deadly Blow and Follow Through Attack, that can up the fighter's abilities without being magical. Dark Champions adds several combat-effective Superskills that could be applied to a Fantasy game fairly easily.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

I agree. It sounds like your GM is using Superheroic rules with Fantasy HERO. While this is totally acceptable of course, if the GM hasn't thought about the implications of Heroic versus Superheroic campaigns, it can be really disastrous.

 

Generally, for a fighter-type character, the only thing they need to pay for a good sword swinging is WF: Blades and perhaps enough Strength to lift the sword. If he wants, he can add a few Combat Skill Levels, or some Martial Arts with the Weapon Element.

 

Most of the discussion on these boards has been about how the HERO System is inherently biased towards fighter types, and that classic mage-types are penalized. So, this is an interesting dilema, since most of my discussion experience here has been brainstorming ideas on how to make mage-types able to compete with fighter-types.

[hypnotica]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Typically, Fantasy HERO warriors don't actually need to pay for weapons or armor. Normal equipment is free, only magical equipment needs to be bought. Is that how you're playing it?

*GamePhil*

 

yes thats what he's doing. the weapons and normal equipment is free to start off with but if you want lets say a sword to do more than normal damage lets say an extra 2d6 than it normally does then you would have to buy the extra hka on that sword but he puts a few limitations on it. also with mages they can increase the damage their spells do with a few limitations thrown here and there its very inexpensive but a fighter really cant increase the damage a sword does if its a 1d6 hka sword its always going to be unless you magically increase the damage it does. What can you do (that wouldnt be magical) but would increase the damage a fighter can do and/or his weapons

[Steve]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

This is a quote from the FAQ. It covers what I think you are looking for in a non-magical way to increase weapon damage.

 

Q: How can I make my character do more damage?

A: The first thing you should do is take a look at the Adding Damage section of the HERO System 5th Edition (pages 270-72). It describes the five ways you can add damage to an attack: Combat Skill Levels, STR, Haymaker, Martial Maneuvers, and movement (velocity). Any character who's willing to accept the penalties for doing so can perform a Haymaker. Combat Skill Levels, Martial Maneuvers, and increased STR are things you have to pay Character Points for.

 

All of these methods suffer from one significant restriction: no matter what you do, you cannot more than double the damage of the weapon or base attack (there are a couple of minor exceptions to this rule, but for the most part it's set in stone). That means, for example, that if you're using a dagger (HKA 1d6-1, or two Damage Classes), you can't more than double that damage (1d6+1, or four Damage Classes), no matter how you add damage. So there's an absolute restriction on your character in that respect - beyond a certain point, all you can do is pick a bigger weapon.

 

However, there are ways around this difficulty, if you have the Character Points to afford them. You have to buy the ability to do more damage with a weapon than you normally would. For example:

 

Lethal Warrior: HKA +1d6 (plus STR) (15 Active Points); OIF (any standard weapon; +1/2), Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2). Total cost: 7 points.

 

This ability represents the fact that the character who buys it is so skilled with weapons that any attack he makes strikes a vital part of the target (since the ability reflects his skill at "targeting," he can't make a Placed Shot when using it). This adds HKA +1d6 (three Damage Classes) to any weapon attack he makes - and that's base damage he's adding. (If the weapon has an Advantage on it, this ability adds to it at a lesser rate; see page 272 of the 5th Edition.) That increases his ability to add damage to the attack with STR. If you're willing to spend enough points on an ability like this (and your GM lets you!), you can create a character who can strike deadly blows with even the smallest weapons.

[tkdguy]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Also, how powerful and/or reliable is magic in the campaign? If casting spells is a risky and time-consuming process, it's not too hard to balance fighters with your spell users. The warriors can strike more swiftly and take out a few opponents before the wizard completes his spell that dispatches the remaining enemies. If wizards casually lob fireballs around, then the PCs without magical abilities should have their own options. HKA and RKA can be defined as powerful nonmagical attacks. Maybe an Entangle ability can be defined as an attack that disarms or binds an opponent.

[Frenchman]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Funny, I always thought spells were too expensive, not weapons.

Most spells (that our group uses) have about -1 to -3 of limitations, averaging (as you might expect) at -2.

A weapons built that way, on the other hand, has -1 1/2 at minimum, and often have more than that. I don't think I've seen a weapon built (that simulated equipment) that didn't have OAF, Real Weapon, and STR Minimum limitations.

[hypnotica]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

im thinking of increasing the damage of attacks for example if i were a magic user i could cast say a rka fireball ( i know usually its an eb not a ka but this is an example) adding a bunch of limitiations very cheaply but if i were a fighter theres not as many limitaitons that i could do to increase the damage of a sword(HKA) if its a 1d6 HKA (sword) its going to always be a 1d6 HKA right? if i wanted to buy more KA on that sword it would have to be magically enhanced. (thats the key that our gm has that he cant see it doing more damage unless it was magical) thats just one example but thats his thinking What im also looking for is to have other ways that I can increase damage if its more limitations or advantages or talents that you could explain as natural or define in a natural way.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

In most fantasy games I have played fighter types overpower mage types completely. The warriors tend to have a much higher OCV than the mage does and can swing their sword over and over and over and over again, while the fantasy mage can rarely do the same with his fireball, which is also either area effect (and thus extremely limited in use) or will require a hit roll using the mage's much lower OCV.

 

Also, take any weapon and add martial arts maneuvers to it, and suddenly it becomes very competitive with almost any spell most GMs would allow.

 

Finally, usually there is little reason to pay points for a magic sword, as most GMs tend to let one slip in from time to time in the old treasure hoards, make sure someone can detect magical auras so you don't miss them.

 

Also, if you are using hit locations then you are better off concentrating on OCV or penalty skill levels than you are on damage. With a good enough OCV you can target the head or an unarmored area and take out minions left and right.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

First long post, bear with me if the formatting is off.

 

So first we have Fred the Fighter with a of Str 18 (8 pts) and WF: Blades (1) and WF: Bows (1). He starts off with the following with a Short Sword (0 OCV, 1d6K, 10 Str min) and a Light Longbow (0 OCV, +1 RMod, 1d6+1k, 10 Str min, Str doesn't add).

 

So for 10 points (and some money) he does 1d6+1K melee and 1d6+1k ranged.

 

If Fred in his infinite wisdom decides he wants a little more damage, he buys a longsword and a heavy longbow. Now for the same points he does 1½d6k and 2d6k respectively.

 

Any further improvement will require point expenditure, either raising strength, or buying levels. With Experience, for 6 points Fred can buy two CL's with Blades and use those to increase his damage with the longsword to 2d6k. Or for the same points buy the CL's with Bows, increasing his damage with the heavy longbow to 2d6+1k.

 

Now we also have Mike the mage with an Int of 13 (3 pts) and the skill Magic (3 pts) at a 12-. If he's only going to spend the same points as Fred, he only has 4 points left. Even with a large amount of limitations (-3) he can only get a 1d6 RKA that only works half the time (skill roll -1 for active points) and probably causes the caster side effects or doesn't work in a number of different situations.

 

Admittedly, using the additional 6 that Fred used on CL's nets Mike a 2½d6 RKA. But now it only works on a roll of an 8 or less because Mike (in his desire to one-up Fred) forgot to buy up his Int or skill roll. Mike goes *poof* when his side effects inevitably go off or whenever that Longsword gets close enough.

 

I suspect that the real problem is that your GM is failing to enforce the limitations that the caster players are layering onto their spells. If it ain't a limitation it ain't worth points.

[Curufea]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

I've always been of the opinon that - if non-spellcasters can buy weapons and use them without paying character points, spellcasters can too.

 

There's nothing stopping mages from picking up a sword and hitting someone with it (Gandalf is a prime example).

[Storn]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Use NND, Ego blast, or Armor Pierce (AP on normal attack). The Mage won't be killing anyone, but he with 5d6 NND, he will be Con stunning 12-20 cons often.

 

Same with a Dex or STR drain. Just a couple of dice of STR drain is going to make that plate wearing warrior very, very tired and ineffective.

 

So, in other words, don't compete with the fighter, find ways of using magic that are more sneaky and circumspect.

[GamePhil]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Use NND, Ego blast, or Armor Pierce (AP on normal attack). The Mage won't be killing anyone, but he with 5d6 NND, he will be Con stunning 12-20 cons often.

 

Wrong way, he's saying the fighter is too weak, not the mage.

[Storn]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Oops, my bad, I did totally misread the first post.

 

However, it still is a partly valid solution. You just keep Mages from casting RKAs and HKAs... sure, they can toss warriors around like 10 pins with a 8d6 explosion... but it takes a warrior to close and kill the enemy.

 

But in my experience, fighters are far more effecient player archtypes than Mages in Hero. Especially at the lower levels. If it is indeed SUPER fantasy, then sure, Mages can be very tough.

 

But lets face it, Strength is still the cheapest STAT and you get the most bang for the buck, even after cresting the 20 NCM. YOu get PD, damage, lifting ability, jumping ability and can wear more crap. A 20 STR fighter with a staff (and god forbid martial arts combined with WE) can do 6d6 vs. PDs of 5-8 and total def of 14 or so with heavy armor... take a 6d6 in the stomach or head and it is light's out.

[Guest joen00b]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

My players had to buy their weapons and their armor. That meant the weapon master had to buy his Saber and his Main Guache (17 points total per FH). Total, the melee characters were paying around 20 points or so for their weapons and armor. The Knight uses a 2 handed sword (17 poitns) and Plate Armor (8 points), that being the most expensive combo of the group.

 

Now, the two casters, one being a straight forward Cleric, the other being an interesting Twist of a shamanistic necromancer, both had to pay for their VPP's: 30 Base, 15 Control. That's nearly double of what the melee had to pay for their offense/defense combos. Also, the Shaministic Necrmancer wanted an Automaton/Familiar, so that cost him 15 more points, and this 'creature' would act in his stead for melee battles.

 

In my game, the disparity seems to be backwards of the problem you are having.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

A couple of things to consider:

 

Is there an active point max on the magical powers? That would go a long way to keeping magical damage in line with martial dammage.

 

Some more details on your magic system would be helpfull. I can tell you from hard experience that if you leave the magic system too "open" for heroic fantasy that you can get some nasty powers pretty cheap.

 

Second, there are a lot of ways to increase damage with heroic melee weapons. Martail arts with weapon elements, extra marial art DCs, skill levels spent on damage instead of CV, strength beyond the weapon str minimum. I dont know what point level you are playing at, but its very possible for an experienced charcter to turn that 1 1/2d6 sword into a 3d6+1 attack. And thats the same as a 50 active point attack, which is a pretty hefty spell in many campaigns.

[Rick]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

....and ofcourse the "Deadly Stike" talent. In some fantasy world the Wizards are supposed to be more powerful than the Fighters. In D&D, few people actually complain about the inequeties between a 10th level fighter and a 10th level Wizard/Sorceror...

[hypnotica]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

To better help me see how you are going to increase the damage of attacks between fighters and mages can you give me some examples of how you would write up the deadliest fighter you can on 150 points they have no magic abilities or items to increase their attacks ?

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Dude, just buy freakin' Find Weakness.

[MordeanGrey]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

You can make a deadly hand to hand combat mage...

 

Buy him a personal armor/force field spell, and arm him with a 2d6 HKA force sword (spell) with the Attack vs. a Limited Defense advantage. (Define the defense as force fields.) This gives him a magical "blade" that cuts through the warriors's armor like the proverbial "hot knife through butter." (Think lightsaber...)

 

Buy him a few OCV levels and you're set!

 

I've never had a problem making Fantasy Hero wizards hold their own in combat.

[Rick]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Except he's talking about Fighters keeping up W/Mages...

[hypnotica]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

yes exactly for example a mage can easily justify adding more d6 to say a fireball spell but what can fighters do to increase their damage first and keep up with mages that do that? (without using magic to increase their abilities etc..)

[Rick]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Deadly strike. It's a talent in FH.

[MordeanGrey]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Oops! My bad. I read the original post the other day, thought about it for a while, and then answered today.

 

Ah, the mind is a terrible thing to waste!

[Rick]

Re: Help with balancing fighters with magic users

 

Or you can limit how much the Wizard can actually increase his/her Damage output. Hero level games, given the way defences and body and stun work (staying level most of the way), don't really need an escalating Damage class race. You need that in D&D with the AC and Hit point inflation. I Like running hero level games so that a 2d6 KA is always something to think twice about. Beside a Fireball is energy, practicly NND in a Fantasy Hero game (there is very little rED) does it really need to get bigger.