Return of the COM Debate:

[Mutant for Hire]

At least part of this post comes from a careful scinetific measurement of all the people involved in the 'catsuit' thread in another part of the forum.

 

Every 5 pts of COM over 10:

+1 bonus only to PRE-based rolls to persuade/attract people.

+1d6 only to presence attacks to inspire/persuade people

 

Every 5 pts of COM below 0:

-1 penalty to all PRE-based rolls to persuade/attract people

+1 bonus only to PRE-based rolls to frighten/intimidate people

+1d6 only to presence attacks to intimidate people

 

Every 5 pts of PRE over 10:

+1 bonus to all PRE-based rolls

+1d6 to all presence attacks

 

I stuck in PRE just to contrast with COM. COM costs half as much as PRE but has a much more limited effect on average. A high COM does not help in intimidating thugs in a firefight, or for interrogating a captured prisoner, while a high PRE does. A being with a very high COM might be able to do an 'awe' option instead of an 'inspire fear' attack to freeze their opponents, but this is a matter of GM discretion.

 

While going to -10 COM gives you +2/+2d6 bonuses in scaring people for 0 cp, the -2 to all PRE rolls to deal with anyone other than in a scary fashion to my mind balances this benefit for no points. A being can use a low COM to inspire their own side in a "make them more scared of you than the enemy" form of inspiration. They can use Oratory or Persuasion in such a fashion as well.

 

For superheroes who work to inspire and persuade the civilian population, not to mention looking good on camera, it becomes worth it to put 5 cp into COM to bring it up to professional model level. After that, it's probably more worth it to sink points into PRE which can be used to cow villains in combat ("ooh pretty boy, I'm soooo scared").

 

Comments?

[Yamo]

Eh. I don't see the point. I'd prefer to eliminate it as a Characteristic altogether and either make it a Perk, use it as a "special effect" for higher than average PRE, or just ignore it altogether.

 

I see it as a wart on the system that I wish Steve Long would have had the nerve to file off when he had the chance.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo

I see it as a wart on the system that I wish Steve Long would have had the nerve to file off when he had the chance.

Since the game has its foundation in comic books, COM is just an extention of all the beautiful people who generally make up comic book heroes. The ability to differentiate looks is not a major one (thus the cheap cost for COM) but it does have its uses. Not all ugly things are horrific and not all handsome things are beautiful, so just using PRE is not enough to show that distinction, IMO.

 

As for my own rules, COM is used as a complimentary skill roll when making PRE rolls versus individuals who might find the character attractive. So someone with a 20 COM has a much better chance of seducing someone than a person with a 10 COM.

[Zaratustra]

I'd rather do it like this: each 3 points spent in COM give +1 to Conversation, Persuasion and Seduction rolls. Maybe Oratory too, depending on the situation. Then buy effects of very high or very low COM as powers: Extra PRE, Mind Control and such.

 

Optionally, one could introduce a reaction roll system in Hero, similar to that used in Gurps.

[caersidi]

It's a matter of genre

 

In Champions, I think you could make the argument that COM is largely unnecessary and could be handled through other means. As has been pointed out, looks in comic books tend to pile up at the extremes--most heroes are gorgeous and many villains hideous (except the femmes fatales, who are evilly gorgeous).

In other genres, however, COM comes into its own. Having GM'ed and played mostly heroic campaigns, the effects of COM can be crucial in espionage and interaction based activites. A lot of this is role-played rather than handled by mechanics, but it's still helpful to have the number for comparison purposes.

[Yamo]

Since the game has its foundation in comic books, COM is just an extention of all the beautiful people who generally make up comic book heroes. The ability to differentiate looks is not a major one (thus the cheap cost for COM) but it does have its uses. Not all ugly things are horrific and not all handsome things are beautiful, so just using PRE is not enough to show that distinction, IMO.

 

As for my own rules, COM is used as a complimentary skill roll when making PRE rolls versus individuals who might find the character attractive. So someone with a 20 COM has a much better chance of seducing someone than a person with a 10 COM.

 

I want to play a living tetrahedron. What's my COM and why?

 

I want to play the fair princess of the ghoul people. Of course, to everyone else, she's a snaggletoothed monstrosity. What's my COM and why?

 

My 30 COM supermodel time travels back to a time where fat was sexy because slimness implied starvation. What happens to her COM?

 

My point is that, moreso than any other Characteristic, trying to attach concrete objective values to attractiveness, especially in genres with multiple species and standards of beauty, is way, way too problematic.

 

COM is stupid and adds little to the game.

[Stephen_H-G]

Attractive: +5 PRE (5) Only when being attractive would give you an advantage (-1) 2 pts. Can be taken multiple times.

 

Fearsome Looking: +5 PRE (5) Only when a fearsome appearance would give you an advantage (-1) 2 pts. Can be taken multiple times.

[Lord Liaden]

I was wondering what all the action was on the "Catsuit" thread, but was a little afraid to find out.

 

Mutant for Hire, for what it's worth, the way that you describe using COM in game is almost exactly the way I've been doing it for some time. The main exception is that I've handled bonuses to Interaction Skills with a COM Characteristic Roll as Complementary to those Skills, but your proposal for set bonuses is more in line with how FREd deals with negative Comeliness.

 

I understand people preferring to deal with attractiveness as a Perk and the lack of it as a Disadvantage, or just eliminating it altogether; but whenever possible, I prefer to work with the precedents established in the system. I'm going to try set bonuses next time the situation arises in my game - Thanks!

[BobGreenwade]

Arguing for the elimination of COM will be about as fruitful as arguing for the doubling of the cost of STR. It may seem logical, but there's so much precedent for leaving it in place that it's just not going to happen. It's much easier to change something with Powers or Skills, which would affect only a select number of characters already in publication (and in play), than to change something with Characteristics, which would affect virtually every single character using the system.

 

Regarding some of the "nebulous COM" situations Yamo brought up, these should be addressed in print somewhere. Star Hero didn't do much on this score, but maybe Fantasy Hero or an upcoming HEROglyphs article can manage it.

 

The idea of letting COM give bonuses to PRE Rolls for appropriate circumstances isn't especially new, but this is the first time I've seen it spelled out in a clear manner like this. I also like the suggestion of making a COM Roll be complementary to not only Seduction but also certain other Interaction Skills (Conversation, Oratory, and Persuasion for starters) when circumstances warrant.

 

And while good looks has been cited in this thread as being a significant matter in comics, it's not just in superherodom that it's played an important role. For that matter, to be honest it's really been little more than a "Special Effect" of heroic presence in comics simply because just about everyone (especially the heroes) is either very good looking or very ugly. In what I've seen, good looks have played a more significant role in success or failure in action, espionage, and similar genres (that is, settings for Dark Champions as it's now been redefined) than in what we've generally associated with the HERO System.

[Mutant for Hire]

Yamo, on the whole "COM" is relative rule, yes, in theory I'm in total agreement with you. On the other hand, what happens to a superhero's Social Disadvantages when they go time-travelling or galaxy hopping?

 

In general, Champions is played as a human-centric game. It would be a good Digital HERO article to come up with a revised set of rules for COM for a truly multi-species situation, and ways to fairly deal with COM for people who wear powered armor and all of that. Or a mask that obscures their features.

 

Stephen, the main problem with your buying it as PRE with a limitation is that it doesn't handle the social penalties of ugliness all that well. But you pretty much nailed the concept down pretty well and the costs almost do match up perfectly (save for rounding bits).

 

As for those who want it to be a perk, again, I used to be in that camp but like others have pointed out, it's not going to go away in the system. So I sat down and tried to come up with some new rules that mesh cleanly with the existing rules and are based as much as possible on existing rules.

[Fur Face]

COM & Double Dipping

 

Another issue with COM is that it allows you to "double-dip". Most people who chose to use a higher COM and also get it as a Distince Feature disadvantage. There has been some discussion on negative COM versus things like interaction skills, but how many of yall have actually used the DF and never had to get in trouble for it? This should get you in trouble for things like:

 

1) Attractive people can be despised/resented because others think they might get breaks in life only because of their looks.

2) Jealousy - has anyone's character ever been a victim of this? If its a DF, it better come up once in a while, unless everyone they hang around is just a comely, in which case why would you take the DF?

3) What about stalkers? If you have a secret ID but killer looks, you could very well attract unwanted attention. Do you have to tell the GM constantly that you are "dressing down" to go unnoticed ?

4)Or, since beauty is the norm and is a comics convention, is this kind of stuff never even considered, just like Clark Kent's glasses disguiseing his secret ID?

 

The last time this thread came up I was thinking a making a character who had high COM, with powers affiliated with it, just for the heck of it. The powers I had in mind were sthings such as an AoE Mind Control that was Persistant or Inherent (the opposite sex always wants me, or no one listens when I talk because they are too busy drooling).

 

But then I started thinking about the questions above. I haven't played enough with the Hero system to make any reasonable assumptions. Every time I would find some people who were interested, we would play maybe one or two sessions and then quit for personal reasons of the members. Other systems I played in made it more of a role playing issue than anything else. Hence my questions!

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

In general, Champions is played as a human-centric game. It would be a good Digital HERO article to come up with a revised set of rules for COM for a truly multi-species situation, and ways to fairly deal with COM for people who wear powered armor and all of that. Or a mask that obscures their features.

If I may, I'd like to point out that it is hardly necessary to be of the same species to consider another being attractive. I think all cats, be they mere pets or tigers in the wild, are beautiful animals. A feline humanoid might well have a high COM. COM does not have to be about sex, it is a characteristic of beauty. Yamo's "living tetrahedron" might not be sexy, but it could still be beautiful just as the Hope diamond and orchids are beautiful. Just as I can appreciate artwork, I can consider another creature's beauty and grace noteworthy.

 

Let's not get too narrow in our definition of Comeliness.

[Wolfgar]

In most cases I would say the tetrahedron would be Comeliness of of 0. It's just an object and doesn't have anything particularly appreciable to look at. It's not hideous, but not especially attractive. It could have a higher Comeliness if it was fine crystal of refracted light in an especially pretty way.

 

The Ghoul Princess? We could simply say she has a -2 COM when any other ghoul has -5 or -7. She's an incredibly beautiful member of her people, but still truly disgusting to a human.

 

In the case of the super model I'd make it a Social Limitation, so that only part of her COM still applies. Mind you while beauty standards change, certain characteristics remain popular no matter what era you happen to be in. Good teeth tend to be popular just about everywhere.

 

A more tricky scenario is when dealing with an alien beauty concept, which was alluded to in the above scenarios. You will note though that in almost all fiction all characters maintain a human sense of beauty, except for gag characters. Dealing with someone who finds something more beautiful when it's slimy, or the less color there is to it, would be a lot more difficult to quantify.

[Atros]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

Arguing for the elimination of COM will be about as fruitful as arguing for the doubling of the cost of STR. It may seem logical, but there's so much precedent for leaving it in place that it's just not going to happen

 

COM isn't like STR, Bob. While there is as much 'precedent' for COM as there is for cheap STR, there isn't the ripple effect associated with changing STR cost--elimination of COM doesn't really substantially effect other game systems down the road. (I've experimented with both.)

 

However, the benefits for removing COM, while they are benefits, are small in magnitude.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Atros

However, the benefits for removing COM, while they are benefits, are small in magnitude.

Just out of curiosity, what do you feel were the positive effects of removing COM? I can see where not having it wouldn't make any real difference, but I can't see actual benefits.

[SuperPheemy]

COM is a measure of the "baseline" standards of beauty for the campaign. Which means that we're talking Human Western Earth for most Modern games. If we were running a game set in 3rd century China, the standards would be different, and what a low or high COM would mean would likewise change.

 

In cross-cultural situations, like the aforementioned "Ghoul Princess", you'd buy COM consistient with the baseline standard (in this case, we'll assume medieval european human) which would be pretty low (4-6). THEN we'd by COM as a power with a limitation like "only towards Ghouls or Ghoul-kin" and have the limitation modifier be dependant on how frequently Ghouls are encountered (I'd guess around a -1 Lim).

 

Making beauty a Perk rather than a stat really doesn't make a difference one way or another. Spending 5 points on COM or buying a 5 point Perk "Stunning Good Looks" is still 5 points spent. Only with COM as a characteristic, a player can purchase the value in finer incriments.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy

In cross-cultural situations, like the aforementioned "Ghoul Princess", you'd buy COM consistient with the baseline standard (in this case, we'll assume medieval european human) which would be pretty low (4-6). THEN we'd by COM as a power with a limitation like "only towards Ghouls or Ghoul-kin" and have the limitation modifier be dependant on how frequently Ghouls are encountered (I'd guess around a -1 Lim).

Not necessarily. Like I said before, this kind of thing hasn't really been explored all that well in published works to date. It could very well be that the Ghoul Princess has a COM of 20, but cultural differences mean that Humans wouldn't think of her as pretty (and by the same token Human women might not look so great to Ghouls, either).

[Blue]

Let's face it, you don't have to be bright or articulate to perform Seduction if you have a great body. In those cases all you have to do is be there! So to make COM more useful, I allow my players to use COM as the basis for certain PRE based skills, as long as they declare it at the time they are building the character.

 

That way Hootie McBoob and her enormous rack will still be easily scared off by mechanon and yet all she has to do is arch her back and every guy in the room will be buying her drinks.

 

I also allow this for Persuasion and a few other things. The rolls of course are relative to your looks in that case, so there are instances where basing your roll on COM will hurt you. Such as convincing the Allied Federation of Alien Races (AFAR) that you come in peace would work better with PRE instead of COM.

[Atros]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Just out of curiosity, what do you feel were the positive effects of removing COM? I can see where not having it wouldn't make any real difference, but I can't see actual benefits.

 

A few things, not major, but noteworthy:

(1) Removing an orphan mechanic, with such a minor game mechanic effect that almost no characters are effected. Therefore, no cost should be assessed.

(2) Avoiding measure of an unmeasurable value. Even if we assume the game world to be humanocentric, you still do not have absolute values to physical beauty among humans.

 

I'd describe removing COM as 'minor housekeeping'.

 

Then again, a dirty house is often a collective problem of minor messes.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Atros

A few things, not major, but noteworthy:

(1) Removing an orphan mechanic, with such a minor game mechanic effect that almost no characters are effected. Therefore, no cost should be assessed.

(2) Avoiding measure of an unmeasurable value. Even if we assume the game world to be humanocentric, you still do not have absolute values to physical beauty among humans.

If it's so unimportant, then why not just leave it in place for those players to whom it does mean something? A given character is always welcome to just keep the baseline 8 or 10 COM. But being attractive is a standard part of comics and adventure stories. Why remove the fun a player gets by being the biggest hunk/hottest babe in a group of people?

 

I've never built a PC or major NPC that didn't have a higher than average COM (or a really low one if they are a monster). I don't have any problem with COM being humanocentric; after all the vast majority of HERO players are probably human.

[Atros]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

If it's so unimportant, then why not just leave it in place for those players to whom it does mean something? A given character is always welcome to just keep the baseline 8 or 10 COM. But being attractive is a standard part of comics and adventure stories. Why remove the fun a player gets by being the biggest hunk/hottest babe in a group of people?

 

Becuase removing COM doesn't take anyone's fun. You can be hunkish/babeish for free. If you'd want a positive game effect with that, you can slap your points down for limited PRE or enhanced social skills.

 

Put simply, 'comliness' becomes a Special Effect. It's still in the game for those that care, and after playing that way for years, I've learned (despite all the naysayers commentary) a vast majority of players just don't care much about it. What internet denizens have wasted hours arguing (I've seen this same arguement over 10 years ago, replicated several times since) was barely noticed in actual play, much less worried about. Which is why I rate it a minor enhancement--games will work fine either way, because the reasons games go well or poorly are usually rooted in other issues.

 

(Edited for sloppy grammer.)

[archermoo]

Personally, I've had quite the opposite experience. It wasn't until I started reading these boards several years ago that I realized that not everyone considered COM to be as important as I and the groups I have played with considered it to be. It is generally a great source of roleplaying and enjoyment in most games I've been in and groups I've played with. And probably the most important of any of the stats in pure roleplaying situations.

[Atros]

Originally posted by archermoo

Personally, I've had quite the opposite experience. It wasn't until I started reading these boards several years ago that I realized that not everyone considered COM to be as important as I and the groups I have played with considered it to be. It is generally a great source of roleplaying and enjoyment in most games I've been in and groups I've played with. And probably the most important of any of the stats in pure roleplaying situations.

 

This astounds me. You'd think that Presence would matter as much, if not moreso--particularly once initial impressions were over. Oh, well.

 

But the greater point here is that physical beauty still exists in games without the COM Characteristic, it's just different. What I was saying was nobody missed the Characteristic.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Atros

This astounds me. You'd think that Presence would matter as much, if not moreso--particularly once initial impressions were over. Oh, well.

 

But the greater point here is that physical beauty still exists in games without the COM Characteristic, it's just different. What I was saying was nobody missed the Characteristic.

 

PRE mattered almost as much, and could matter more depending on the circumstances. And you can abstract any of the stats to Advantages/Disadvantages if you want. Don't like presence? Abstract it out and buy presence defense instead. Don't like STR? Just buy the figureds that it effects seperately, and buy the damage and other effects seperately. Don't like DEX? Just buy SPD, combat levels, and turn the DEX based skills into a set of general skills. I LIKE having COM as a stat in the game. Having attractivness abstracted out like it is in GURPS is one of the (many) things I don't like about it.

[Atros]

Originally posted by archermoo

PRE mattered almost as much, and could matter more depending on the circumstances. And you can abstract any of the stats to Advantages/Disadvantages if you want. Don't like presence? Abstract it out and buy presence defense instead. Don't like STR? Just buy the figureds that it effects seperately, and buy the damage and other effects seperately. Don't like DEX? Just buy SPD, combat levels, and turn the DEX based skills into a set of general skills. I LIKE having COM as a stat in the game. Having attractivness abstracted out like it is in GURPS is one of the (many) things I don't like about it.

 

Yes, you can abstract out any ability for the most part. The abstracting COM seemed to come up (getting back to Yamo's comment), because it pretty much has no game effect as written. This abstraction might not be for you; that is fine. But I couldn't help but support Yamo's comment as *not* being outlandish, particularly when you consider the other Characteristics each have solid mechanics governing thier effects.