Shubbie Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Has anyone else encountered a situation where crowd control powers Entanfles/flashes completly dominates the play conditions. There was a scenario where a psi used an entangle based on ecv. This pretty much got all the party members but 2. We couldnt even figure out if an ego blast would break it. That's not actually the point of this though. After that I began looking at Entangles in general and flashes, a standard 60 point entangle will stop indefinatly anyone with under a 30 str. This seems a little overpowering as you could basicly put a team with only 1 or 2 high str characters trying to spend their actions just breaking people out. Flashes are bad too but not as bad as its not too exepensive and not out of character for people to put on hi tech sunglasses if they are getting flashed every adventure, while just adding 20 str to a weak character seems a little silly. How do you keep crowd control powers from dominating play? Do you just limit entangles to only 1 or 2 characters per group? Now you might say its 60 points thats expensive for something that doesnt always work, but as we all know its REALLY easy to come up with a character with an entangle in a multipower and then it only costs you 6 or even less if there are limits. Thanks in advance for any advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Actually, you can use damaging powers other than Strength to break out of Entangles. So essentially ANY character can break out of one. (EB, RKA, HKA, Drain...). Plus, teleport? Desolid? As for Mental Entangles - those are potentially abusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doppler Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game If you have no attack of more than 30 active points, or nothing that does body, then yes, you're kind of stuck. But how many playable superheroes do you see with those shortcomings? Certainly not a whole team- if they're going up against bad guys with 60 AP powers fairly commonly, then you'd expect at least the majority to have those kinds of attack powers, too. And with the right advantages, any power is abusive... except swinging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike W Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game They can be a bit difficult. One of my players has a 1 hex flash vs. sight that is causing me problems. But there are ways around it. One thing you might consider is that if someone is using a power a lot and it is causing problems for villains...villains will naturally target them first. So on the opening 12 - dogpile on the guy with the ECV entangle. Also, start looking for alternative ways around the power. Invisibility for one. Look at the special effect of the power, can it be deflected? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike W Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Doppler - swinging can be abusive too if you work at it hard enough. Fusion grapple - clinging at range w/ 20+" of linked swinging, now target a bad guy the reel yourself in - instant move through - without the penalties since you've already "targeted" the bad guy. works great if the guy is flying or if you have a little flight or gliding, just enough to stay airborne. I'd say swimming is the hardest power to abuse because adventures in/around water come up less often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doppler Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Hmmmm you're right. Let's add MegaScale, too, and then you have two instantaneous red splotches, brought together from anywhere in the galaxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Blue Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game In my experience mental entangles remain abusive till you get rid of the power or the player character that has it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shubbie Posted March 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game The mental entangel was actually a villian, it just got me looking at using my own normal entangle more. I started picking out martial and device using villains and targeting them with it since they often had trouble breaking them. This is a normal 60 point entagle defense and such. It started getting fights to be very short as their teamates had to start using their actions to break out others. Im a little worried seeing how effective this was. I cant imagine how everyone wouldnt want to put an entangle and flash in their mutlipower. What I will admit is that entangle is a very very common power in comics. I mean look at static shock, both Static and Gear both use entangles alot and in a multipower pool. Though static's has a limitation requires scrap metal. He even has a flash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doppler Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Spider-Man ought to think about getting himself an entangle, don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game I'm not quite sure what the complaint is about Entangle. An EB of equal value will on average break the entangle and let the previously entangled character get a half phase to act if they broke themselves out. Please elaborate. Flash attacks can be a trial, which is why Flash Defense and alternative senses are so useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplygnome Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game I have a player that I let make a mental entangle. Any mook of almost any calibure he can take out of the fight instantly...Good think my mooks come in packs of 25+ with a few minor supers thrown in... Now for my SUPERS, thats another story. The mental character has other devices at his disposal and he knew ahead of time that he was going to be a mostly "crowd control" based character, used at wipping up the extras getting in the way of the big boys...Since he knew this, I have no problem with giving my really big supers extra ego, mental defense (yes, I made him buy the disad), and other forms of mental defense (such as cybernetic brains)..... However, this countermeasure by far makes the character useless.....and balances out the game nicely. (Hey, Im also counter blancing for a goddess with a 36 slot multi power, a speedster with a 15DCV - one over campaign soft cap -, a spd of 7, and an 11d6 passing strike with 30" of movement, and a shadow-magic martial artist equiped with everything from teleport, to darkness, to ranged martial attacks - at roughly 14d6 - and a force field....Really theres nothing fancy the Mentalist can do in terms of sheer power...Each and every character is really a monster, especially for being built on only 300pts. Thats fine by me...It lets the players have fun AND lets me justify building stronger baddies....considering I have a better HERO understanding of all the players, as I was the one who helped them make their characters, I always have an extra trick up my sleeve to keep them on their toes). Theres MHO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryanb Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game They can be a bit difficult. One of my players has a 1 hex flash vs. sight that is causing me problems. But there are ways around it. One thing you might consider is that if someone is using a power a lot and it is causing problems for villains...villains will naturally target them first. So on the opening 12 - dogpile on the guy with the ECV entangle. Also, start looking for alternative ways around the power. Invisibility for one. Look at the special effect of the power, can it be deflected? I've got a problem where one of my players has a flashbang - an area effect (hex) Flash vs both sight and hearing groups. Can kinda become a pain in the @$%#! as it is used almost every combat. I know I can give some villains extra sensory powers but not all are going to have these...any suggestions? Thx Daz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game I've got a problem where one of my players has a flashbang - an area effect (hex) Flash vs both sight and hearing groups. Can kinda become a pain in the @$%#! as it is used almost every combat. I know I can give some villains extra sensory powers but not all are going to have these...any suggestions? Thx Daz If he's making a habit of opening with the flashbang (and it sounds like he has), then I'd find some villains who had access to an invisible force wall and catch him in the act of tossing it, only for him to find out that he's in a 1 hex force wall bubble, with nowhere for the grenade to go but in his hex. Then the force wall drops and the fun begins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korvar Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Fundementally, if the character has a known combat tactic that he always uses, the villains will come up with defences. Even if they just routinely wear ear protectors and reactive glasses (good ol' Flash Defence). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyMitchell Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Doppler - swinging can be abusive too if you work at it hard enough. Fusion grapple - clinging at range w/ 20+" of linked swinging' date=' now target a bad guy the reel yourself in - instant move through - without the penalties since you've already "targeted" the bad guy. works great if the guy is flying or if you have a little flight or gliding, just enough to stay airborne.[/quote']Sounds more like mutant Stretching than swinging. If I were the GM, I'd say, "No, Swinging is a movement power. It doesn't allow you to grab foes at range. If you want to do that, buy Stretching." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Champsguy Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game a) A guy with a 60 AP power should be able to drop mooks with one shot. The guy with the flashbang grenade can only throw at one guy per phase. That's when the other villains target him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyMitchell Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering gameI've never found Entangle or Flash, in their basic forms, to be particularly problematic. Mental Entangles are deadly, because so few characters have any effective defense against them.That said, I agree with the previous post - if the character becomes too predictable, punish him for it. The villains watch the news too. Maybe after three or four combats where his predictability bites him in the posterior, the player will get the idea and start mixing things up a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Depending on how the power's defined, you might be able to deflect/reflect it. Mind Control & use against teammates. Based on Ego entangles could run into Ego Damage Shields. Flashbangs could run into "Dazzler" type character that can absorb sound/light and become more powerful. "Albedo" - area-affect flash defense man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyMitchell Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Depending on how the power's defined' date=' you might be able to deflect/reflect it.Mind Control & use against teammates.Based on Ego entangles could run into Ego Damage Shields.Flashbangs could run into "Dazzler" type character that can absorb sound/light and become more powerful."Albedo" - area-affect flash defense man! [/quote']I like these! Especially the Ego Damage Shield:"You see a tall, humanoid creature. He's wearing a floppy leather-looking hat and a trenchcoat made of similar material. His face is a glowing green skull, and his hands look like they have claws on them, dripping a reddish fluid.""I'll use my Ego Entangle.""Take 11 BODY and 33 STUN. So sorry. You're Stunned. And dying." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Well, when all else fails, you can always have the villains match the tactics. VIPER researches a mental entangle weapon (or captures the character and studies him to duplicate the power in clones). Evil twins. Then watch how the PC's deal with it. Mental Entaknges have what, +2 in overall advantages? That leaves 3d6, 3 DEF. Are your characters so weak-willed that this takes them out of the fight? Granted, my current PC IS that weak-willed, but someone in the group would be able to deal with it. And my character (the second time) will try to Flash the mentalist first so he can't get line of sight. Amazing how much better the second combat tends to go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike W Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game bryanb I'm having the exact same problem in my campaign. a 1 hex AOE flashbang. Possible solutions - 1. start using "dive for cover" maneuvers until someone can engage the guy in hand to hand. 2.Invisibility helps. Can't flashbang if you don't know where the target is. 3.Missile deflect/reflect, depending on how the deflection and the flashbang are built - of course, missile deflect based off of TK/wing powers could be REALLY effective here. 4.Flash defense(but don't overdo it), gang up on the guy early. If he likes to blind peoople try to take him out - maybe try to blind him back if he doesn't have the defense for his own power. 5.As someone else already pointed out, force wall can help stop things before they make the intended target. 6. Images/illusions to make the character think the target is actually somewhere else 7. Things like Combat Sense and defense maneuver can make sight almost irrelevant. So can some targeting senses. 8. Try to make things a big melee, if you can engage some of his teammates who aren't protected from the flashbang in hand to hand, he'll probably be more reluctant to use it. Part of the problem I'm having with my player is that since he's a low grade power armor/gadgeteer type, several of the above don't work very well against him. Also, this is a street level campaign so some of the above powers don't occur very often(force wall, TK, etc). But I've still got some ideas for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyMitchell Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Well' date=' when all else fails, you can always have the villains match the tactics. VIPER researches a mental entangle weapon (or captures the character and studies him to duplicate the power in clones). Evil twins.Then watch how the PC's deal with it.Mental Entaknges have what, +2 in overall advantages? That leaves 3d6, 3 DEF. Are your characters so weak-willed that this takes them out of the fight? Granted, my current PC IS that weak-willed, but someone in the group would be able to deal with it.[/quote']Most physical power-oriented heroes have 10 - 14 EGO (especially the starting types). That leaves less than 3D6 in EGO "damage" to break out. Which means a 3D6, DEF 3 Entangle is pretty darn effective. And we won't even discuss Medusa's power...Worse, any character who can't break out is basically out of the fight. There's no mechanism for another character to help him out of the Entangle (unlike physical Entangles, where the team brick or EP can bust people free). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Well, when all else fails, you can always have the villains match the tactics. VIPER researches a mental entangle weapon (or captures the character and studies him to duplicate the power in clones). Evil twins. Then watch how the PC's deal with it. Mental Entaknges have what, +2 in overall advantages? That leaves 3d6, 3 DEF. Are your characters so weak-willed that this takes them out of the fight? Granted, my current PC IS that weak-willed, but someone in the group would be able to deal with it. And my character (the second time) will try to Flash the mentalist first so he can't get line of sight. Amazing how much better the second combat tends to go! Look at the CKC for a sampling. What percentage of them can break out of a 6d6 entangle by themselves in one shot? Now, what percentage of them can escape a 3d6 EGO entangle without help? ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Mental Illusion can be one heck of a "crowd control" power too. Creative use can cause players to miss phases regardless of their attack powers. RE: Mental Entangle. I allowed this once, and found it too powerful for my taste. Ditto NND Entangle. Neither is allowed in my campaigns as a result. YMMV and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Re: Crowd control overpowering game Mental Illusion can be one heck of a "crowd control" power too. Creative use can cause players to miss phases regardless of their attack powers. Just miss phases? Frioends become enemies and enemies look like friends means they can keep those phases - we get a bonus teammate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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