I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Trebuchet]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Isn't giving this player even a small Cosmic VPP kinda dangerous given his past history? Wouldn't it make more sense to at least require a DEX roll?

 

And what's with the +2 +3 DEX for his Lightning Reflexes? Shouldn't it be one or the other?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I really think giving this player *any* form of VPP is just going to cause you headaches later.

 

If you do let him have it, I strongly suggest that you insist that any possible uses of the VPP get submitted to you at least a week in advance for review. He can have 300 options, but all have been reviewed and checked by the GM in advance. If he tries to use anything not approved, no dice.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now, the real fun would be for Lynx to give her Independent stuff to Blur, then quit the game.

[Badger]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

How long has this guy played. I mean I am still learning somewhat, and consider myself still "inexperienced" as far as character creation in HERO. But this.....

 

 

It blows the mind. Did he not think "hey I have no way in hell of getting this character approved". Or in the event he did "You know my character is worthless in combat, unless I am used as some type of Mercury/Hermes speedy delivery messenger between 2 forces" Note: Hello, that is why we gots a radio

 

Oh well, learn sumptin' new.

[David Blue]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Super Squirrel: Blur is good enough to go with for one session. Take the variable power pool away from him before he works out terrible things to do with it. And don't sweat the details, just play your game.

 

I'm impressed with what you do for your players.

 

Lynx (Independent Lass) did not leave me with a good impression of the player that constructed it. ("It" not "her". This is not a proper character.)

[incrdbil]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Umm, wow.

 

Flag on the play, HIDO and IIF, penalty, loss of character.

 

Of heck, just take the focus and let her play the character with all the disads and no replacement. Tell her one of the pains of Independent is never getting those points back even with a 'radiation' accident.

[AlHazred]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And I'm still trying to figure out how having 7d6 Luck Always On is a bad thing and hence worthy of a Limitation?

 

It is if you play in John Wick's game (see John Wick's article "Hit 'em Where it Hurts" and Steven Howard's refutation "Never play Champions with a GM who Hates Superheroes").

 

Personally, I think SS did a great job on the rewrite, except for the VPP. It would be insanely generous (emphasis on "insane") to let the character have a VPP on the rewrite.

[AlHazred]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Scifi_Toughguy, it might work out better if you started a new thread for this character design, so that you don't take the bad things people are going to say about the other "Maximum Cheese" character as references to yours.

 

I'm going to try not to go over points that other people have already covered.

 

Background: (sorry for typos' date=' I haven't spell checked it and saved it)[/quote']

 

Kudos on writing this much character background! With some of my players, it's lucky if I get one paragraph.

 

6 Computer Programming (Networks, PCs) 12-

 

Typically, in superhero campaigns, you only need to buy "Computer Programming" as a simple Intellect Skill: 3 points for the base skill, +2 for each +1 with the skill.

 

3 Tracking Power 11-

6 Tracking w/ Smell/Taste group (10 Active Points); Requires Skill Roll (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)

 

Tracking as an Intellect Skill represents what professional hunters know how to do: follow a trail, look for signs of spoor, etc. From your Background, I think you just need Tracking Scent. It lets you Track targets with a regular Perception Roll. Ironically, by getting rid of this Skill and the Requires A Skill Roll Limitation from Tracking Scent, you end up saving 1 point.

 

30 Claws: HTH Killing 3d6 (5d6+1 w/ STR) (45 Active points); Restrainable (-1/2) END 4

 

I'm not sure how his claws can be Restrained. I mean, do they fold back into his fingers? That still seems like an extremely difficult maneuver. I don't think I'd allow Restrainable on this power; I don't give Wolverine a Restrainable on his Claws just because you could Grab his hand and restrain him, for instance. Make sure that your campaign limit on Active Points for attacks is 80 points or more.

 

4 Tail: Extra Limbs (5 Active Points) Limited Manipulation (-1/4)

 

I'd add the Inherent advantage.

 

10 Tail Slash: HTH Attack +3d6, does X 1.5 knockback (+3/4) (26 Active Points) HTH attack -1/2, extra time (delayed phase, no other actions -1/2), Restrainable (-1/2)

 

As written, this power allows you to do, what, 10d6? But you're only doing 1.5x knockback on 3 of those dice, which becomes confusing to calculate. If I were GM, I'd recommend adding the Increased Knockback advantage to your character's STR as well as part of the power (as an Adder).

 

34 Bite: Killing Attack - HtH 4d6 (6d6+1 w/ STR) (60 Active Points), Restrainable (-1/2), no Knockback -1/4

 

This is actually a 90-point attack power. Kudos on remembering No Knockback for a Bite, but it's grossly more powerful than I'd allow.

 

10 Social Limitation: Secret ID, Occasional, Major

 

I find it hard to imagine how you plan to maintain that secret identity.

 

5 Reputation: sewer homeless protector, 11-, small group only

 

This is a "good" reputation, a positive thing for the character, yes? Then you should use the Reputation Perk for it, rather than the Disadvantage.

 

30 Enraged: Berserk when little girl threatened (any that remind him) (uncommon) go 14-, recover 11- Berserk

 

I see this as a disaster in the making. When you see little girls threatened, you go completely Berserk? You could end up harming the little girl! I'm leery of allowing heroes to take Berserk anyway; Enraged is probably closer to what you intend.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I told the player with Independent tonight she had to get rid of it. I said we would grandfather the experience point different and she could pay off the points with a portion of her experience as I am now giving out about 2 more per session on average.

 

The player of Blur was not present tonight because he just got back from Europe last week with his new wife. I'll revise his sheet, replacing the VPP with a Change Environment and more skills.

[AlHazred]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The player of Blur was not present tonight because he just got back from Europe last week with his new wife. I'll revise his sheet' date=' replacing the VPP with a Change Environment and more skills.[/quote']

 

I think that's wise. Good luck with him. Hopefully his next character isn't a blatant attempt to "win" the game by being the guy with the most pluses...

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

2) Is this player used to a gaming background where anything goes and someone else (GM's girlfriend' date=' favorite child, etc.) in the campaign gets away with this kind of cheese because the relationship? [/quote']

 

Yes.

 

Hey! You create my character YOURSELF!

[Super Squirrel]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I was answering yes to the "Gaming background where anything goes" not to my particular campaign.

[incrdbil]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I told the player with Independent tonight she had to get rid of it. I said we would grandfather the experience point different and she could pay off the points with a portion of her experience as I am now giving out about 2 more per session on average.

 

Well, looking at the vast savings, that's still quite a few sessions? I'm not sure what the campaign standards are, it seems you could 'trim the fat' of a lot of stats and save her quite a few months of payments

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It is if you play in John Wick's game (see John Wick's article "Hit 'em Where it Hurts" and Steven Howard's refutation "Never play Champions with a GM who Hates Superheroes").

Thanks for the links, I hadn't read those

[AlHazred]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Thanks for the links' date=' I hadn't read those [/quote']

I happen to agree with Steven Howard. Disadvatages and Limitations are supposed to, well, Disadvantage or Limit the character. However, there's a difference between using them as they should be used, or actively gunning for PCs. And Powers should never be used as Disadvantages!

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I happen to agree with Steven Howard. Disadvatages and Limitations are supposed to' date=' well, Disadvantage or Limit the character. However, there's a difference between using them as they should be used, or actively gunning for PCs. And Powers should never be used as Disadvantages![/quote']

 

Okay, for some reason the second link isn't working for me. Help?

[Trebuchet]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It is if you play in John Wick's game...

Based on his "article" (personally I thought it was more like bragging "How I screwed my players."), John Wick is a crummy GM. Roleplaying is mutual storytelling. Mr. Wick seems to think his purpose as a GM is to torture his players. That's not roleplaying; it's sadomasochism.

 

"Buy a Disad? Here's how I'll fcuk you over and smile while I do it."

 

"Buy a Power? Here's how I'll fcuk you over with it."

 

"Trying to make your character more human by giving him personal problems? Can't have that, can we?"

 

I'd probably walk out of Wick's campaign before the first game run was finished. In fact, I know I would; I once literally walked out of a Champions game after a GM raped my new female character. I never played with that GM again, and have never regretted it. Life is too short to play with assholes.

 

Interesting articles. They really made me appreciate the campaign I've run and played in since 1992 that much more.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I happen to agree with Steven Howard. Disadvatages and Limitations are supposed to' date=' well, Disadvantage or Limit the character. However, there's a difference between using them as they should be used, or actively gunning for PCs. And Powers should never be used as Disadvantages![/quote']

On the powers, I agree. The twisting of Luck was hideous. As with most things, though, I think the truth lay somewhere in between. Work with the disads and limitations, even play to them, but don't make the player regret playing.

 

Except in this case. Combat Wombat has to go.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'd probably walk out of Wick's campaign before the first game run was finished. In fact' date=' I know I would; I once literally walked out of a Champions game after a GM [i']raped[/i] my new female character. I never played with that GM again, and have never regretted it. Life is too short to play with assholes.

O v O

 

I would've slapped the guy before walking out of his game. That's NOT the kind of thing you spring on a character in the middle of a game.

 

And a good slap upside the head may have done him some good.

 

Aw, what am I saying? There is no cure, for SOME people.

 

Ugh.

[AlHazred]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Okay' date=' for some reason the second link isn't working for me. Help?[/quote']

Try this: http://personal.linkline.com/stevenhoward/never.html.

[incrdbil]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'd probably walk out of Wick's campaign before the first game run was finished. In fact, I know I would; I once literally walked out of a Champions game after a GM raped my new female character. I never played with that GM again, and have never regretted it. Life is too short to play with assholes.

 

 

I'd fele obligated to do more than just walk out... to..oh heck, I dont know, burn his books? Brand him with the words "Pathetic player-Killer GM" just to warn all future groups away? It's sad to see someone masquerading as a GM, when they are are more accurately described as a SBCMG. (sadisitc bully compensating for miniscule genitalia)

[JmOz]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Back to an old part of this discusion:

 

Am I the only GM who looks at what they are saving points for by being munchkiny to judge the character by?

 

In example if the Iron Man like Power Armor has spent his savings on a lot of teck skills, high society perks and skills (Like KS: Rich and Famous, contacts, etc...) I am alot less likely to screw with them, than if he has to have another 2d6 EB...

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Back to an old part of this discusion:

 

Am I the only GM who looks at what they are saving points for by being munchkiny to judge the character by?

 

In example if the Iron Man like Power Armor has spent his savings on a lot of teck skills, high society perks and skills (Like KS: Rich and Famous, contacts, etc...) I am alot less likely to screw with them, than if he has to have another 2d6 EB...

Depends on how he wants to use those skills, probably.

 

I'm sure there's another one of Josh's "cry for help" threads that goes over how one of his characters was abusing her resources.

[AlHazred]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Back to an old part of this discusion:

 

Am I the only GM who looks at what they are saving points for by being munchkiny to judge the character by?

 

In example if the Iron Man like Power Armor has spent his savings on a lot of teck skills, high society perks and skills (Like KS: Rich and Famous, contacts, etc...) I am alot less likely to screw with them, than if he has to have another 2d6 EB...

I quite agree.

 

What it all boils down to, for me anyway, is that the points and stats and nifty doodads, the crunch of the game, basically, is optional. I could probably run it just as a collective storytelling exercise; I'd be comfortable with that. But others in my group wouldn't be; they need the crutch of the rules within which to play. And there's nothing wrong with that, I'm comfortable with that, too.

 

But because I can separate the fun from the crunch, I am more aware, as GM, when players are "playing along" with the storyline (shaving points from one ability to buy an appropriate Contact or Perk) and when they're doing it to be the biggest badass motherfcuker around (i.e., in order to have another attack Power). Like JmOz, I'm much more likely to be lenient (heck, give free points, even) for the first than the second.

[Haerandir]

Re: I Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Based on his "article" (personally I thought it was more like bragging "How I screwed my players."), John Wick is a crummy GM. Roleplaying is mutual storytelling. Mr. Wick seems to think his purpose as a GM is to torture his players. That's not roleplaying; it's sadomasochism.

 

Well, in defense of John Wick (THERE's a phrase I never thought I'd hear coming out of my mouth...), he later put up an article in which he clarified his viewpoint a bit. He managed to get it from reprehensible to simply misguided, IMHO. See, at least in the second article, his premise is that players enjoy things more when they think they've earned them, so it's part of your job description as GM to make them spend the majority of the game terrified of what will happen next. That way, when they win, they feel really good about themselves. And, if they lose, that'll just inspire them to try even harder next time.

 

As for the response to the first article, he attributes that to people not picking up on the subtly ironic tone of his dryly humorous writing style, and his own failure to provide examples of how his actions actually improved the players' enjoyment. I guess that could be true. In an environment where the players are prepared for this kind of treatment, and everybody agrees that it's all in fun, it could work.

 

But, as advice on general role-playing technique, I agree the article is a failure. I certainly would never play in a game run by Wick, and this article has caused me to go over some of the games he's written with an eye towards spotting his particular brand of mayhem. If I ever run 7th Sea, I will definitely be making a few changes, for instance.

 

I've looked for a link to the second article, but I appear to have deleted it from my bookmarks and I couldn't find it on a casual search. Amusingly, I stumbled across it when I was looking for the original "Hit 'Em Where It Hurts" article last summer, which I couldn't seem to track down. Now, when I want the second article, I can only find the first. I guess it's true, after all. John Wick exists solely to try my patience...