Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

[Black Omega]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

Yup' date=' stopping crime in progress is a non-issue. It's when you get to the investigative / pre-emptive stage that the tougher questions start.[/quote']Heya Odd,

 

Investigative can be interesting. The really tough questions would be if you try to be preemptive. Because at the point you are trying to prevent a crime before they have done anything. And unless you have a very clear idea who is trying to do what that can quickly lead to trouble.

 

Fair enough. I don't think mine would' date=' but then I'd expect Super-Clansman to be running around in a non-comic book world with Supers.[/quote']Would not shock me. Racist villains have been running around in comic book worlds with supers for a long time now.

 

Most of the time yes' date=' at least in the comics. On the other hand, one of Superman's first adventures had him kidnapping a washington lobyist and threatening his life if he refued to top pushing for a particular program; sounds like minor league political terrorism to me. More recent comics tended to stay away from these issues; I'm interested in if and how people addressed them in campaigns.[/quote']Both Superman and Batman started out at the end of the pulp period so they did things much differently than current. Batman used to carry a gun and kill people. Superman dropped people in the ocean miles from land and tossed normals over the horizon. Then came the comics code and things changed quite a bit. Back in those days people didn't blink an eye at the proto heros acting like that. Today if someone tried to write Superman as killing people they'd get lynched, ironically.

 

Sounds like a good campaign. So' date=' have you ever thought about the legal status of your group in your world?[/quote']Our legal status is pretty set. We've been official recognized by the police for our assistence on a number of occasions. Unofficially, we've been given to understand they don't deputize us because they understand superheros need a certain freedom from rules and regulations. Our GM runs a fairly four color game in that sense. We've rarely had an unfriendly relationship with the police in his games. My games tend to vary more. In a Dark Champions game I ran, by the end the police were calling in help from outside the city to help catch, but the PC's were blowing up apartment buildings to get at a bad guy inside.

[BcAugust]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

I have to say, given Abberant was considered for the longest time the most iron age and realistic setting out there, that even the fact they have a lot of good superheros.. Makes me wonder a bit about some of the answers.

 

 

Okay, assuming a setting "realistic" enough to include this plot element...

...the cop's shouldn't be letting their faces be seen either.

 

In a world with Supervillains, you aren't only in as much danger as IRL when you piss off a homicidal lunatic who then escapes... ...you might well get ambushed by someone who could [insert incredibly messy and lethal way of killing someone that only superpowers could make available].

 

Heck, Mentalists. If they can locate you in your sleep, you end up their slave.

 

If you want a truly realistic world... there WAS an idealistic (or stupid) superhero who tried to use his gifts publically and openly.

 

He's now either dead, crippled, or enslaved. Because he didn't have script immunity (whether from "luck" or just being more powerful than any twenty other supers).

 

 

 

To this I'd like to add that about half of the modern day supers campaigns I've been involved with, the PC's _were_ the cops. Or rather, the superpowered equivalent. (In one case literally; I played Division, a duplicating policeman.)

 

 

 

As for public fear... at least in Champions, the good guys tend to be incredibly persuasive AND good looking. And they DO have good reasons for the secrecy.

 

Also, I'd have to say a lot of dislike/distrust for cops comes from the fact they intervene directly in YOUR life. If they never bother you, you don't mind. If they're unbearably gorgeous romantic figures you only ever see from far off...

[TheEmerged]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

Okay, I'll begin with an important factor: the PC's in my current campaign are Supervillains.

 

=====================

 

In NeoChampions, the Nova Registration Act was passed by President Carter after the villain MindBender nearly succeeded in taking over the world before anybody realized -- and (at least in popular opinion, it's actually more complicated than this) got voted out of office because of it. While Reagan rendered it nearly toothless, he was never able to get quite enough support to get it overturned. After the Battle of Detroit cost George Bush the election, Clinton was able to add what by comparison were draconian 'teeth' to the law. George W. Bush has made noises about "reexamining" it but that's all he's made.

 

As a result, it is a federal felony to be a nova (person with superpowers) and not register within 2 weeks of eruption. While there has been resistance to this, the lack of a central, popular leader for the movement has doomed it to fragmentation over methods (cf "Brave New World", the game not the novel).

 

PRIMUS is the federal agency in charge of enforcing the NRA (originally known as The Detroit Act, a title that has lost popularity). Under the auspices of the SAT (Superhuman America Team) program, various novas have been given official status -- of course you have to be registered to be official. You don't necessarily have to be a member of PRIMUS to have SAT approval, but many do (for example, Defender, Ironclad, Solitaire, and Jaguar are -- but KnightSeeker and Sapphire aren't).

 

PRIMUS is quite jealous about this -- although there are exceptions, as a rule most PRIMUS members view it as their duty to track down vigilantes. A few "defiant" novas have gotten suspended sentences in return for joining up after having their 'secret identities' revealed to the public, but most respond to having the ID's blown (which PRIMUS does with glee) by moving to Sanctuary.

 

Other countries of course vary on their local version of the NRA; The United Kingdom for example is just as harsh as the US, but Australia still has a "toothless" version (you have to register but there are no special penalties for not registering). The United Nations requires a form of registration before allowing novas to join Project Utopia and/or Team Tomorrow. And some of the more draconian nations have actually outlawed novas -- although most allow exile in defference to the UN (because they know what happened to Libya).

 

=============

 

RE: Secret ID's. Most PRIMUS officials view this as a challenge; if a nova runs around with a mask as a vigilante, the average Silver Avenger is going to make a point of trying to find their ID. What's more, most tabloids and many newspapers (one exception: The Washington Post, which has always been anti-registration) go out of their way to try and scoop PRIMUS on this.

 

Although it's not universal, the public at large views it as something they don't necessarily like but don't dislike enough to fight against. The "J. Jonah Jameson" view (comics did exist in NeoChampions), that "If they're a hero, why wear a mask" is especially hard to argue against in a world where being a nova can make you an easy celebrity.

 

Take the Black Mask of Michtendorf. She is not registered. Her "secret identity" is an open secret among the upper echelons of the intelligence community -- but she's widely believed not to be a nova (she in fact is) and therefore not within PRIMUS's jurisdiction. The current Golden Avenger has decided that it would not be good press to bring national icon down -- for now. If BM ever crossed the GA in the wrong way, GA would personally bring her in.

 

On the flip side, the police in Michtendorf all but cheer her on. In the city of Righteous Indignation, you'd never convince anyone she's a nova anyway -- and while the feds have made noises, no one on the police force is going to arrest this icon. A few make a show of pointing their guns in her direction and saying she's "under arrest" but everyone knows they'd never actually do it.

 

Nationally however she's the exception, and generally viewed as such. Except for a corrupt town which is basically run behind the scenes by a nova terrorist group, you could count the number of vigilantes enjoying a similar status in the USA on one hand and not need all the fingers.

 

Of course, not every nova fights crime: about 5 in 7 novas are 'employables' who simply use their powers in day-to-day life, or live around them. Karl Bensom uses his nova Savant powers and Universal Translation to be an expert book restorer and expert on obscure languages and alphabets. Carter Crossover on the other hand is just a corporate accountant who happens to be 8ft tall and weigh nearly half a ton of solid muscle. Both are registered, which causes unique problems for each.

 

Carter for example suffers from "truck liability" -- everyone in the neighborhood knows he's a nova (it's pretty obvious) and as a result gets asked to help any time a neighbor needs a heavy object moved. Karl on the other hand gets called in for questioning any time something odd happens around the library he works at; the police know he's a savant nova with an eidetic memory and want to know every detail he might have seen...

[Broblawsky]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

It's worth noting that at least two of Spider-Man's foes have tried to kill Jameson in the past - the Green Goblin and the Scorpion. If not for Spider-Man's assistance, Jameson would be dead - the man has a (virtually admitted) psychotic hatred of Spider-Man.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

Traditional Superheroes (and action heroes) place themselves above the law. Their desire to do the right thing does not lead them to join the police' date=' become lawyers / doctors / firemen / whatever; it leads them to go out and physically attack people they suspect of wrongdoing.[/quote']

 

Most superheroes only attack criminals they catch in the act of copmmitting a crime. Within certain limits, all citizens in the USA have this legal right.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

If you want a truly realistic world...

 

If paranormals existed in the real world, it would not look anything remotely like the superhero genre as we know it, not even "Iron Age" settings.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

If paranormals existed in the real world' date=' it would not look anything remotely like the superhero genre as we know it, not even "Iron Age" settings.[/quote']

 

If you'll note the way that post worked, the only part that was 'truly realistic' was the idea that SOMEONE would have tried being a fullblown superhero with no secrets... and that that somebody would be crippled or worse because of it.

 

I agree, not even Iron Age is truly realistic in this regard (at least, none that I'm aware of); even there, the nominal good guys have a degree of plot protection.

 

 

That said, adding powers to the real world could indeed end up like at least some superhero worlds. Maybe not completely, but it could.

 

Depends on the kind of people who get teh powers.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

If you'll note the way that post worked' date=' the only part that was 'truly realistic' was the idea that SOMEONE would have tried being a fullblown superhero with no secrets... and that that somebody would be crippled or worse because of it.[/quote']

 

Oh, I don't disagree with you, there.

[The Bug]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

Instead she squeaks by on a $120K salary QUOTE]

 

I wish I could "squeak" by on a $120K salary.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

I wish I could "squeak" by on a $120K salary.

After taxes it's only $36K in one of the highest cost of living countries in Europe (Norway). In the US the take home pay would probably be twice that, and our COL is lower to boot. Norway has the second-lowest disposable income per capita level in western Europe (Only Denmark is worse).

 

Hardly seems excessive for going up against the likes of Eurostar...

[Black Rose]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

Instead she squeaks by on a $120K salary

 

I wish I could "squeak" by on a $120K salary.

 

Remember, Treb said they have a ~70% Income tax. That's gonna cripple your paycheck no matter what you make.

[Trencher]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

After taxes it's only $36K in one of the highest cost of living countries in Europe (Norway). In the US the take home pay would probably be twice that' date=' and our COL is lower to boot. Norway has the second-lowest disposable income per capita level in western Europe [/quote'] Is this good or bad?

 

Remember, Treb said they have a ~70% Income tax. That's gonna cripple your paycheck no matter what you make.

It is more like 26 to 30.

[Markdoc]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

After taxes it's only $36K in one of the highest cost of living countries in Europe (Norway). In the US the take home pay would probably be twice that, and our COL is lower to boot. Norway has the second-lowest disposable income per capita level in western Europe (Only Denmark is worse).

 

Hardly seems excessive for going up against the likes of Eurostar...

 

Well speaking as someone who lives in scandinavia and earns a little less than that... in the real world, 120K would be a comfortable salary but not really wealthy (it puts you at the top end of the regular management scale for a small firm or in the middle for a big corporation). Figure she could have a nice car - but probably not a Ferrari. A nice 4 bedroom house with a yard in the suburbs, or a fairly flash apartment downtown - but not a 6 bedroom show apartment. Enough disposable income for multiple overseas holidays a year, plus all the toys needed. By the time you figure in health insurance, 120K in Norway is probably about the same as 90-100 K in the US (assuming you live in a major metro area).

 

If she has to pay for her own supergadgets, she might have problems, but a single person on 120K a year in Norway would be living pretty well, even if she lived in Oslo. I agree that it's probably not a huge salary for doing super-deeds, but it's a long way from sqeaking by

 

cheers, Mark

[Trebuchet]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

Well speaking as someone who lives in scandinavia and earns a little less than that... in the real world, 120K would be a comfortable salary but not really wealthy (it puts you at the top end of the regular management scale for a small firm or in the middle for a big corporation). Figure she could have a nice car - but probably not a Ferrari. A nice 4 bedroom house with a yard in the suburbs, or a fairly flash apartment downtown - but not a 6 bedroom show apartment. Enough disposable income for multiple overseas holidays a year, plus all the toys needed. By the time you figure in health insurance, 120K in Norway is probably about the same as 90-100 K in the US (assuming you live in a major metro area).

 

If she has to pay for her own supergadgets, she might have problems, but a single person on 120K a year in Norway would be living pretty well, even if she lived in Oslo. I agree that it's probably not a huge salary for doing super-deeds, but it's a long way from sqeaking by

I was being facetious when I implied she was only "squeaking by." She lives comfortably enough; if not luxuriously. I'd call her upper middle class here in the States.

 

She rooms with a Norwegian family whose daughter is her best friend; drives a 2004 VW Jetta, and owns a riding horse. Stabling the horse would be a large expense if her boss didn't already have stables on his estate; she does pay for his fodder and medicines. Clothing is her major expenditure; although recently she's been considering buying a glider because she really enjoys flying (as in pilot; not as flying super).

[Markdoc]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

I was being facetious when I implied she was only "squeaking by." She lives comfortably enough.

 

Smilies, man, smilies, dammit!

 

Oh - OK. The 36K figure threw me - her real tax bracket (including social security, etc) would be 42%, which means her take-home would be about 78K, when you figure in basic exemptions.

 

On the other hand this is way more detailed than I ever bother to get wth any of my characters....

 

cheers, Mark

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

In my new campaign, the Justice Defenders (a DOJ legacy team) are technically outlaws because they haven't registered as Paranormals. If they do something too stupid, like bust the wrong guy, they've got legal trouble. Even if they're smart, Viper might set them up. One of them doesn't have a Secret ID, her parents may wind up paying the price.

 

Even cops get to hide their identities when their activities are considered especially likely to get them singled out for retaliation. Superheroes, IMHO, would have severe trouble operating without Secret IDs.

 

Just because you're criminal doesn't mean you're not a hero. Calling yourself a hero doesn't make you one. The public will judge supers by their actions, and that doesn't make you a hero either. If the supers act like heroes, they are heroes.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

Smilies, man, smilies, dammit!

 

Oh - OK. The 36K figure threw me - her real tax bracket (including social security, etc) would be 42%, which means her take-home would be about 78K, when you figure in basic exemptions.

 

On the other hand this is way more detailed than I ever bother to get wth any of my characters....

I was thinking it might be for me too, but then I realize I've known the income, hobbies, and what vehicle they drove of every Champions player character I've ever run. I guess I just consider that fairly basic information; just as much as height and weight and hair color.

 

Of course, it could just be that I have no life...

[fbdaury]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

I was thinking it might be for me too, but then I realize I've known the income, hobbies, and what vehicle they drove of every Champions player character I've ever run. I guess I just consider that fairly basic information; just as much as height and weight and hair color.

 

Of course, it could just be that I have no life...

 

Why do you torture me by giving me straight lines like that Treb?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

Why do you torture me by giving me straight lines like that Treb?

Because I live to be cruel; and you don't get points for the easy shots. I'm conservative, remember?

[zornwil]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

It's worth noting that at least two of Spider-Man's foes have tried to kill Jameson in the past - the Green Goblin and the Scorpion. If not for Spider-Man's assistance' date=' Jameson would be dead - the man has a (virtually admitted) psychotic hatred of Spider-Man.[/quote']

The Justice Squad (our game's PCs) rescued Jameson as well (that's what he's there for, right?) as in fact they had actually indirectly jeopardized him! Long story short, Jameson had damaging info on the Justice Squad having held a supervillain against his will, and the government (well, a part of it, the US gov't is very fractured among agencies competing for power, the CIA, FBI, NSA, MIB (yes, Men In Black)...), anxious to continue using the Justice Squad as occasional agents, put Jameson into a looney bin under a false identity and replaced him with one of the MIB doppelgangers. The JS managed to rescue Jameson and counter the doppelganger without direct exposure (in fact, Punisher, a rogue and dangerous ex-gov't agent, is one of those being investigated).

 

Anyway, in my campaign world supers first started emulating the comics, simply. The first Superman did what Superman did...and so on. Many mutants have taken this on as a badge of pride in what they are and their separation from human ways; others simply look on it as a duty and work with authorities. The gov't is very interested in vigilantes, as they can use them as cover to do dangerous things and disavow responsibility; consequently they also very carefully allow certain supers to operate for a time without directly stopping them.

 

PS - in fact, it was the government that orchestrated the first meeting of the Justice Squad "by accident"

 

PPS - this world was also the source of a Bush-ism I made up, an errant sort of misstatement he would innocently make "There's nothin' wrong with vigilanteism so long as it's all duly deputized." It's not a cheap shot, it's just something I can see him saying.

[Guest darthvegita666]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

oh

 

i thought this was gonna be 'my name is victor von DOOM its not like i could grow up to be a good guy even my name is evil'

[gewing]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

OK, now that I understand what you're asking:

 

 

 

I deal with this by rephrasing it.

 

"Superheroes decide that they are going to physically stand in the way of the 'Bad People' because they have the ability to do so. Through whatever means, they have the ability to defeat these threats almost no one else can. 'With great power comes great responsibility' and all that jazz. "

 

As for the second part, "The 'Bad People' reveal themselves by their actions, be it holding up a bank or nuclear blackmail. The Superhero will attempt to assist the authorities with any such situations they can, but especially with those situations requiring their special talents and powers - those situations beyond the capability of 'conventional' police, even military forces."

 

 

 

"The second thing most Superheroes do is conceal their identities, so as to protect themselves, their loved ones and the general public from retribution by powerful, evil foes with little to no regard for human life." A supervillain would blow up the entire theatre if they knew Spider-Man was inside watching a movie.

 

 

VERY GOOD POINT!

 

Having a Public ID and only moderate defenses/no danger sense seems like a good way to get blown to pieces in the modern world.

 

Fortunately comics aren't quite that realistic.

[gewing]

Re: Of course we're criminals. We have to be.

 

Well, seeing that in the campaign I'm playing in (not the PBEM however) has the authorities being the bad guys about 50%+ of the time or at least sponsoring them... and since it's pretty much a world with a vast governmental conspiracy to engender distrust of the 'non-sanctioned' supers, round them up, and incarcerate them without due process away from the light of day... and since the majority of the hero's actions involve keeping the public safe from casual killer federal superagents masquerading as 'supervillains' to engender this distrust and pursue various illicit corporate interests...

 

screw what the public thinks!

 

Of course in that scenario, it pretty much really IS "of course we're criminals. We have to be."

 

More traditional style campaigns, I've played in... sometimes it comes up, sometimes it doesn't. Depends on the actions of the players.

 

Heck I had one PC in a campaign I was GMing run for the Senate after a major "world saving" adventure captured on television. I was pretty unprepared for that, but figured what the hell and let him win (who's not going to vote for the guy who just saved your life, your family's life, and your friend's life... and nobody's contesting that fact). So this big, smart, brick became the junior Democratic Senator from New York and retired from superheroing.

 

I considered this a tremendous waste of talent, but hey, it made for a great story arc! And what the heck, he's got the LS: immune to aging so it's not like he won't have the time to pursue varied interests in the future...

 

 

If he is up to WOrldsaving adventures, there are some arguments for waste of talent, but

 

A: No reason he couldn't come out of retirement if needed.

 

B: A SMART, HONEST politician who has the public support to actually get things done? GREAT!!! SOmeone will probably assassinate or frame him for something asap.