Weapon not up to the Armor

[Herolover]

Hey all. Got another question.

 

In my last combat I had some quick agile thieves with short swords and shields (STR 10, CV 8) fight my PCs. I discovered that the thieves couldn't even hurt one guy because he was wearing chain (DEF 6). This meant that no matter wear my thief hit him no BODY would be done. (They did do a lot of STUN however.)

 

My question is...

1) do you see this as okay? No problem, it just means that the PC will be knocked out first or should the bad guys find a way to do BODY?

 

2) Getting more STR is not an option as is getting another weapon. That said is there a way for STR 10 Short Sword (1d6k) man to do BODY to Chain mail man?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Personally I don't have a lot of trouble with the concept of doing STUN but no BODY to a well-armored foe. I actually prefer that heroes not have their BODY whittled down - it takes significant time for HERO characters to heal.

 

Had you worked out the coverage of the character's chain armor? You could always have your thieves strike at the unprotected areas. I know that the OCV penalties for called shots are significant, but if your thieves are indeed agile, and numerous enough to strike from behind, it would be doable.

[Susano]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Hey all. Got another question.

 

In my last combat I had some quick agile thieves with short swords and shields (STR 10, CV 8) fight my PCs. I discovered that the thieves couldn't even hurt one guy because he was wearing chain (DEF 6). This meant that no matter wear my thief hit him no BODY would be done. (They did do a lot of STUN however.)

 

My question is...

1) do you see this as okay? No problem, it just means that the PC will be knocked out first or should the bad guys find a way to do BODY?

 

2) Getting more STR is not an option as is getting another weapon. That said is there a way for STR 10 Short Sword (1d6k) man to do BODY to Chain mail man?

 

There is historical evidence of a man in mail surviving a ton of abuse -- multiple arrow impacts, swords, and so on. So this isn't all that unrealistic from that standpoint. However, since this is a fantasy game and not "The Crusades the RPG" one would want to be able to threaten such a character.

 

So, hurting the guy in DEF 6 mail with a 1d6 short sword:

 

1) Apply STR. A 15 STR character can do 1d6+1. 20 STR can do 1 1/2d6. Up to a max of 2d6.

 

2) Hit Locations. Your typical mail shirt covers either wrist or elbow to neck to either mid-thigh or knees. That leaves Hit Locations 3-6 and 15-18 open. Lop of a hand and our hero will feel it. Hit him in the face (locations 3-5) and that 'mere' 1d6 HKA becomes (in effect) 2d6, and if he has 12 or less BODY he can be in a world of hurt.

 

3) Skill Levels. Two levels can add one damage class.

 

4) Martial Arts. Call it "knife fighting," "street fencing," or "assassin's tricks," but you can bump up your damage to 1d6+1 or 1 1/2d6 fairly easily.

 

5) Haymaker. Call it a thrust, or a cleave, or an all-out swing, but the end result is the same: +1/2d6 of Killing (for a 1 1/2d6 HKA).

 

6) Thrusting swords. Give a character or two a sword or heavy dagger that is mostly point. It's now an AP weapon. That means DEF 6 guy is now DEF 3 guy.

 

7) The 1 for 20 rule. Borrowed from (I think) Fuzion, this semi-popular house rule states that for every 20 STUN you take, you also take 1 BODY. All that battering can't be good for you....

 

Yes, some of these require things you said you didn't want, but I wanted to cover all the bases I could think of.

[Curufea]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

I'd just like to add as well - if you don't want to raise their characteristics, you may want to allow them to "push their strength" and only do it temporarily, for extra endurance cost.

[Fox1]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

1) do you see this as okay? No problem' date=' it just means that the PC will be knocked out first or should the bad guys find a way to do BODY?[/quote']

 

I saw this problem way back in the first Fantasy HERO playtest. It's why I gave up ever using HERO for fantasy settings.

 

5e rules considers this result fine for Players, and adds a bunch of Mook rules to make it livable for NPCs while admitting that the concept sucks as a general rule in such settings.

 

I hate mook rules, so that is that for me.

 

2) Getting more STR is not an option as is getting another weapon. That said is there a way for STR 10 Short Sword (1d6k) man to do BODY to Chain mail man?

 

 

Bruce's suggestion to me at the time is that Fantasy Hero characters should load up on Combat Skill Levels and use that to increase weapon damage to the point where armor can be overcomed.

 

I didn't like the suggestion then because it was for 6-8 CSL for a typical experienced character. That's way more than I use for my Superhero or other campaigns and I'm big on keeping all my HERO based games on the same page.

 

However it may work for you depending upon your play style.

[Herolover]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Thanks for all the replies. It really help me covers the basis.

 

The fight would have been much better if I could have remembered for them to do some basic manuevers like block etc.

 

I keep forgetting all the little things an NPC can do in combat. Funny actually because I normally am able to point that out to my players.

[Outsider]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Use the optional damage type rules from page 178 of the FH book (5th Ed) that allow thrusting weapons to be considered AP, with a successful STR (or DEX) check.

 

Since your theives probably have a 12- DEX check, that means that 3/4ths of the time, they will be doing 1D6 AP rather than 1D6, and only be facing 3 DEF rather than an impenetrable 6 DEF.

[Bismark]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Having horrified the Star Hero forum with my weapon damage adjustments (guns that do SERIOUS damage rather than being downgraded - we aren't playing superheroes after all), I can now add my 2 cents/pence/lire/whatever to this thread.

 

Picture Dark Age Irish (light - very light - javelins, buckler and small, stiff, light shortsword, no other armour) warriors against Viking Hersir (broadsword, Round shield, occasional Danish Axe, Spangenhelm, mail hauberk); apparently, the best chance the Irish had was to THROW STONES - their weaponry was pretty useless against Viking armour. How did they get around it? They adopted one-handed axes with a heavy head so they could 'brute force' their way through (before later on some of them adopted 2-H axes themselves).

 

Shortsword vs. chain is an unequal contest - though a kopis/machaira/falcata (the larger precursor of the Gurkha kukri) or a gladius would do better than most other shortswords because they are heavier than other contemporary shortswords, the former being more like a falchion and the latter being good for the thrust (possibly AP depending on GM's viewpoint). Only skilled people can make a shortsword 'cut it' against good armour; of course, Stiletto-type weapons could do the job (they are DEFINITELY Armour-Piercing against chain).

 

Unless you give your thugs 'can openers', they need to go for placed shots and hit where the armour is not - maybe give one of the leaders Find Weakness just to liven things up a bit. Also try the 'ganging up tactics' - if the thugs work as a group, they get hefty OCV bonuses which allows placed shots to be a possibility.

 

As for not wanting to go the 'realistic' route, trust me - the thugs are lucky they are getting any serious STUN through unless they land a head/vitals shot:

 

(light weapon) + (impact-spreading armour + padded arming doublet) = (not a lot of blunt trauma).

 

The FUZION (no flames, please) 20 STUN = 1 BODY (blunt trauma) rule is actually a very good rule for H-to-H combat.

 

For the record, some of my PCs were moaning about their shortswords (doing about 1 1/2 D6K I believe) not 'cutting it' against 3 DEF cuirboulli armour - it's not my fault they can't roll good damage dice…

 

At the other extreme, I did play a FH character (pure fighter) built on 200 pts whose response to people wanting him to throw a javelin at someone was 'which eyeball do you want me to hit?' : 10 CSLs/javelins, 2 CSL/wpn+shield, DEX 23 etc. When you are regularly hitting people in the eyeball at 10 metres range, their armour becomes largely superfluous .

[CourtFool]

If you don't have anything nice to say...let everyone know

 

Must...resist...snide comment.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Hey all. Got another question.

 

In my last combat I had some quick agile thieves with short swords and shields (STR 10, CV 8) fight my PCs. I discovered that the thieves couldn't even hurt one guy because he was wearing chain (DEF 6). This meant that no matter wear my thief hit him no BODY would be done. (They did do a lot of STUN however.)

 

 

I'm going to have to agree with Lord Liaden.

 

You really need to take into account Sectional Armor. A guy in "chain mail" is in all likely hood simply wearing a chain shirt (protects areas 9-12) his head, arms, hands, legs and feet will be vulnerable (of course, those are likely covered by various other types of armor, but most likely leather around Def 2 or 3)

[Harakani]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Haymaker.

As I recall, basic maneuvers add on a 1:1 basis.

1d6K shortsword gets +5DC (to make doubling) meaning 2d6K. Average roll will do 7 body.

Of course it is almost certain suicide to use it if the guy can strike back, but it makes a wonderful attack when/if he is stunned.

Or perhaps your lightly armed thieves would prefer move through?

 

If high level, there are numerous talents that can help, like deadly blow.

 

Harakani

[Susano]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Haymaker.

As I recall, basic maneuvers add on a 1:1 basis.

1d6K shortsword gets +5DC (to make doubling) meaning 2d6K. Average roll will do 7 body.

 

That is incorrect. A 5th Ed. Haymaker adds +4 DC of Normal Damage or +2 DC of Killing Damage. So your 1d6 HKA short sword does 1 1/2d6.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

One other thought:

 

Does it _have_ to be Shortswords?

 

Something with a long, fine point has a better chance of just going _through_ the chain mail (AP)... well, that's how I prefer the game to work anyway.

 

So have them do 1/2d6 AP damage (use 2 combat skill levels to get it to 1d6 damage).

 

Now the Chainmail is not quite so good at stopping the thrusts, and other armour has it's problems too.

 

Of course, being KO'd is hopefully the way you defeat the PC's anyway - character generation isn't easy, and it's nice to stick with a character.

[Harakani]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

That is incorrect. A 5th Ed. Haymaker adds +4 DC of Normal Damage or +2 DC of Killing Damage. So your 1d6 HKA short sword does 1 1/2d6.

My bad, don't have the book with me at the moment.

Still, it takes you above 1d6K and makes doing damage possible about a third of the time - and it is an option available to everybody.

Harakani

[Markdoc]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Well, as Mike pointed out, this is not unrealistic - we have records from the crusades of mailed knights falling off their horses and being repeatedly stabbed with spears and light swords - but on being rescued, having nohting worse than bruising (Stun damage).

 

So how did people without cool armour-penetrating weapons deal with this?

 

1. Get some cool armour-penetrating weapons. Maybe most thieves like short swords because they are easy to carry/hide. Give one or two (not all of them) a short, heavy beaked hammer or a misericorde: both AP weapons. The idea is not to kill your players but scare them from time to time. The first time someone takes a misiercorde in the kidneys (let's say 5 BOD, 2 goes through, doubled to 4 for location 13) they'll notice and start taking the thieves a bit more seriously.

 

2. Maneuvers. As noted, Haymaker puts your ordinary shortsword into potential BOD damage range. Adding a couple of CSLs to boost damage makes it even better. Martial arts is also good, and find weakness even better. Not every thief should have these, or any thief necessarily have all of them. But mix one or two "better quality" thieves in with the rest and the players will have to treat all thieves with a bit more respect because they never know if the guy beside them is 25 points with a shortsword, or 50 points with a shortsword, 3 CSL and find weakness....

 

3. Gang up. 4 thieves take on sir Armourpants. He treats them with disdainful contempt, knowing their puny weapons are no match for his armour. The thieves circle around him and he attacks thief no. 1. Who throws his levels into DCV and blocks, hopefully surviving. Thieves #2 through 4 haymaker - quite safely, 'cos sir Armourpants has just attacked and can't attack them while they are low DCV. Hopefully, one or more will also get attacking from behind bonuses, etc. They are not going to kill him outright, but they could easily put some serious hurt on him with one or two good hits. If your NPCs use their numbers, things like watching your back, buying combat sense and so on start to be worthwile, while - to me at least - it is more fun because it rewards tactical play.

 

4. Fight dirty. Having dispatched the first 4 thieves with only minor wounds, sir Armourpants has learned his lesson. When reinforcements turn up, he puts his back to the wall and waits for the thieves to make their move. Thief number 1 throws a handful of quicklime into his face (3d6 Flash) and while he's blinded (at 1/2 DCV) the other three thieves pile in, haymakering away...

Now dripping blood at every step, sir Armourpants staggers up the passage where he meets another 4 thieves. They've had enough of this guy. They just pile in, all levels on OCV and grabbing him. Sir Armourpants spits one thief wounding him badly, but one of the other threes grabs him and throws him to the ground, another piles on top. Next phase, sir Amourpants - at 1/2 DCV - is thoroughly grabbed. He's stronger than the thieves, but there are three of them. He's grabbed, so he can't use his sword. The one he wounded in the first phase takes off his helmet, exposing his DEF 0 face and smiling evilly....

 

It works for me. Mike can attest how frequently a party of kick-ass 125-150 point samurai got hurt by a group of 25 point ashigaru who were just a little bit more numerous, but fought cleverly And, to be fair, how clever tactics by the players often allowed them to take on much more numerous foes and do savage execution!

 

cheers, Mark

[Susano]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Mike can attest how frequently a party of kick-ass 125-150 point samurai got hurt by a group of 25 point ashigaru who were just a little bit more numerous' date=' but fought cleverly And, to be fair, how clever tactics by the players often allowed them to take on much more numerous foes and do savage execution![/quote']

 

And then there was Jiro, who turned into Toshiro Mifune for one evening and hacked down, what? 7? 8? 12? of the enemy before finally dying?

[Ki-rin]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

7) The 1 for 20 rule. Borrowed from (I think) Fuzion, this semi-popular house rule states that for every 20 STUN you take, you also take 1 BODY. All that battering can't be good for you....

My version of this was "the 1 for every 2xBod" rule. For every 2xBod STUN you take, you also take 1 Bod.

 

Suddenly combat became something people got careful about again

[Susano]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

My version of this was "the 1 for every 2xBod" rule. For every 2xBod STUN you take, you also take 1 Bod.

 

So, a 10 BODY character would take 1 BODY for every 20 STUN they take? (and an 11 BODY character would take 1 for 22 and so on?)

[Ki-rin]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

So' date=' a 10 BODY character would take 1 BODY for every 20 STUN they take? (and an 11 BODY character would take 1 for 22 and so on?)[/quote']

Exactly. Among other things, this made the big warrior more resistant to taking Bod than the skinny Thief. Which made sense to me *shrug*

 

The other thing it did was make people consider taking Bod (either at build time or in combat) a bit more seriously.

[comitatus]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

My question is...

1) do you see this as okay? No problem, it just means that the PC will be knocked out first or should the bad guys find a way to do BODY?

 

It was this aspect of combat that really attracted me to Hero

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

My version of this was "the 1 for every 2xBod" rule. For every 2xBod STUN you take, you also take 1 Bod.

 

Suddenly combat became something people got careful about again

 

Actually, 1 for 1xBODY could be good for a more bloody game. Suddenly people would have BODY scores in the area of their CON and STR because it's that good. Especially given the (relatively) lower spread of BODY in Heroic level games.

 

(the reasoning? 10 BODY guy will take 2 BODY, tops, before getting KO'd. given that he's got STUN less than 40, which would be what you'd expect).

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

I'm sure someone has said this already, but especially given the high CV you gave your dacoits, have them use called shots to get around the armor. TANSTAACBC - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Chainmail Body Condom

 

Also if your shortswords are defined as thrusters, there's an optional rule in fantasy hero that allows thrusters to become AP if the attacker makes a dex roll after the to-hit roll succeeds.

[swobeas]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Hi!

 

One thing you can also think of: crossbows.

In my game a made as a houserule crossbows armorpiercing, so having some of your (skilled) thieves armed with a crossbow shooting from 2nd line could bring fire on the chainy

 

keep on gamin'

 

greets from berlin

 

swobeas

[Ki-rin]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

Actually, 1 for 1xBODY could be good for a more bloody game. Suddenly people would have BODY scores in the area of their CON and STR because it's that good. Especially given the (relatively) lower spread of BODY in Heroic level games.

 

(the reasoning? 10 BODY guy will take 2 BODY, tops, before getting KO'd. given that he's got STUN less than 40, which would be what you'd expect).

My goal wasn't so much to make "a more bloddy game", as to make combat realistically deadly with the minimum of special rules and die rolls.

 

The other main goal was to make sure that even at low power levels like that of FH I saw distinctly different body types and fighting styles. This House Rule made it so that I saw Big, Strong, Knights (Armor Brick), Barbarians (Brick), Rogue (MA/Speedster), and Mages (EB/Egoist) each have different body types and very different fighting styles. That also seemed more "real" to me.

 

...and of course, it gave Bod respect more akin to what I think a 2CP for +1 increase characteristic should have.

[Curufea]

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor

 

TANSTAACBC - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Chainmail Body Condom

 

Actually, in the transitional plate period there were suits of mail that I would class as mail condoms - they covered everything but the face - mail trousers including the feed, mail hauberk with sleeves and mittens, and a mail coif. Some of the Turkish armoured suits of the crusade period were interesting too.